If you have Sneak, Bellower is better, since he finds Emrakul and swings for 21.
If you don't have Sneak, Bellower is better since he's actually castable without huge difficulty.
I like Pulse as the flex slot, you've fixed a lot of complaints I had with the deck which was a lack of removal, but another piece of removal over a mediocre creature, or a PW you can't Sneak isn't going to hurt anything. I think I would rank those options as Pulse, Nissa, Punishing Fire, Huntmaster, Tracker/Meren (I think if it ever comes to either of these two, things have gone horribly wrong).Originally Posted by Navsi
Any time you can get Griselbrand you can just get Emrakul and win the game instead. That was my experience with it atleast.
Pulse and Nissa are definitely the two options I'm leaning towards most. Pulse is universally okay, but I'm already playing Reclamation Sage for most of the targets I can't kill with Decay or Punishing Fire. The only thing I don't kill with Sage, Decay and Fire is CMC>3 creatures, which generally aren't that much of a problem in my experience - I guess Anglers and Smashers are okay, but Sneak in general is pretty good against the decks that play Angler and Smasher. There's also always Deed / Deluge to clear up anything the rest of the removal doesn't kill.
I do like Pulse, but it's not as necessary here as in lists without maindeck artifact/enchantment hate and with Punishing Fire to kill planeswalkers. I'm leaning towards Nissa since she can rebuy Sneak Attacks, which is absurd. I might swap the Toxic Deluge for a third Pernicious Deed given that Nissa can return Deed, although Deluge is nice against the decks where we don't have time to get the mana for Deed (i.e. Elves).
I've been running dragonloard atarka in place of inferno titan and combustible gear hulk in your flex spot. Its been working out pretty nice. I get to play it in a tournament tomorrow for a monthly legacy event
Flex Slot I'd consider another sweeper or pulse.
You could also consider the 15/15 wurm dude like big red plays.
Okay, tournament done!
I took the list above, with Nissa in the flex slot and this sideboard:
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 To The Slaughter
2 Golgari Charm
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Slaughter Games
1 Gaze of Granite
1 Pithing Needle
1 Massacre
Round 1: Reanimator
Game 1 he keeps a hand with two Lotus Petals and no lands, and proceeds to fizzle and die.
Game 2 he makes a Griselbrand before I get any discard, and I draw no removal and die.
Game 3 he makes a Griselbrand before I get any discard, and I draw no removal and die.
This was disappointing.
Round 2: Miracles
Game 1 he casts an early Entreat, which I blow up with Deed. I trade for his counterspells repeatedly and eventually run him out and resolve an Inferno Titan. He makes his second Entreat for six angels - I can't find a Deed in 12 cards and lose.
Game 2 I Slaughter JTMS, then trade off Zeniths and Nissa for counterspells before eventually Slaughter-ing for Entreat also. I get Carpet of Flowers (for 8 mana) and can hardcast Emrakul, but can't kill him before turns run out.
Round 3: Shardless
Game 1 he can't answer my Inferno Titan and dies.
Game 2 I have turn two Sneak, which eats a Force, so I Witness and play it again for lethal off Bellower/Emrakul on turn four.
Round 4: Food Chain
Game 1 he gets three Griffins and Food Chain, but doesn't have Emrakul. I decay Chain, Deluge the board and kill him with Inferno Titan.
Game 2 he makes Emrakul on turn three and I scoop up my cards.
Game 3 I discard his Empath leaving him with a Decay, Strix, Empath and some other irrelevant cards. I Sneak some stuff and he dies.
Round 5: Reanimator
Game 1 he mulligans to 5, keeps zero lands (Careful Study, Entomb, Exhume, Reanimate, FOW). I Therapy him but don't want to flashback and give him lands. Explorer beats down for a few turns - he tops a land and entombs Griselbrand, but I play three Therapies and take all his reanimation and Study. He rips Reanimate, makes Griselbrand and I die.
Game 2 I Slaughter Griselbrand and make an Inferno Titan. He makes Ashen Rider. I sneak in Bellower + Emrakul, he sacs Rider to Annihilator and exiles Emrakul - I finish him off with Empath beats.
Game 3 I make a Top, he Needles it, and I slam Sneak into Emrakul. Next turn I Zenith for Empath, get Emrakul again and kill him.
Finish up 3-2, just outside of top 4 on tiebreakers.
Sidisi didn't do much.
Bellower was excellent - I hardly ever wanted Primeval Titan. Zenithing for Bellower + Empath + Inferno Titan was great.
Nissa only came up once (vs Miracles) and immediately ate a Force. Needs more testing.
I didn't miss Meren.
To The Slaughter was sided in a lot, but I never drew it.
That's a rough field, 2x Reanimator basically starts your tournament at 0-2. On the bright side, you went 2-0-1 with the rest.
I beat the second Reanimator player - my other loss was to Miracles, where the match result was 0 - 1 - 1.
The first Reanimator player was new to the deck, and I felt like I had a chance - I just didn't see any early hate / removal in any of the games.
Deck feels very strong.
I guess I wasn't clear in my comment, you won but the match is close to an autolose except for the times their deck beats itself. That just evened out with the bad luck in the other match.
Back to the topic of the flex slot, have you considered an edict? I've been considering the same, Blessed Alliance in my case, but I suppose it would be Diabolic Edict in yours. If you're facing a lot of Emrakul's that could be a good way to deal with them.
I'm running To The Slaughter in the sideboard as an edict.
I don't think Reanimator is that bad to be honest. It's not great - you basically need a discard/removal spell before their turn two, with more to follow within the next couple of turns - but that's basically the same as other fast combo decks like Storm and Show and Tell. They have some amount of inevitability, but you play 4+ extraction effects for Griselbrand, and you have a pretty reliably turn 4-5 kill which isn't that bad to be honest. It's not a good matchup but I'd say it was closer to 35/65 than 10/90.
Fair enough I suppose. My experience versus Sneak n Show is that Emrakul is the beatable/last resort creature, whereas when Griselbrand hits the table I'm toast since there's no way to catch up on cards and they're highly likely to draw Emrakul anyway. No counterspells plus only one Emrakul is probably the difference. I can see it.
Maybe in the sneak fit list ou could fitt some food chain. Food chain is most of the time better than sneak cause with a single fierce empath bellower you are gone hardcast emrakull.
Fierce empath+2 mana give you bellower 6+1 for empath +4 for bellower+1 for empath +4 =15 mana for emmy.
Though you have to play 3 fierce empath and 2 bellower for that purpose.
I think you could mix both food chain and sneak. Somehing needs to be tested.
More gamebreaking spells is very good. I would cut in the sneakList the weakest singleton : primeval titan thragtusk sakura and 1 sidisi and the flex slot for +3 food chain +1 bellower+1 empath.
Show & Tell is very different because you pass the turn before attacking, and if removal is available Emrakul does nothing, whereas Griselbrand still puts you way ahead.
Basically if the opponent has non-spell removal available at instant speed (Karakas, pretty much) Griselbrand wins out, but otherwise Emrakul is always fine. Also if your opponent does have Karakas, you can always do something like Bellower - Inferno Titan - swing for 12 + 6 titan damage which is usually just fine anyway.
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Primeval Titan
1 Inferno Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Punishing Fire
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Sneak Attack
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
sb::
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pyroclasm
2 Slaughter Games
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Gaze of Granite
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Deathrite Shaman
This is where I'm at currently. Final tuning is in progress now. I know I want Sylvan in the deck somewhere, but it's currently occupying the slot of Empath #2, which might be incorrect with Bellower. It could be that replacing a Top with Sylvan is more correct. This list is sacrificing the midrange / beatdown plan a bit, but it's become a much more effective control/combo deck, which is historically a better place to be in general. Feels very strong and I like where it's positioned going into Eternal Weekend and the weeks following.
If you have RR, this is incorrect. You can R: sneak Emrakul. Move to declare attacks. If he DOESNT Karakas now, he annihilates 6. If he DOES, you R: sneak Emrakul, and pass priority again. Karakas does not stop Sneak+Emrakul as long as you have extra red mana available to dump into it. If you don't, then yes, there exist other lines that are better. But just keep that trick in mind.
May I suggest a 1 or 2-of Sudden shock in your sideboard ?
Legacy & Homebrew **ONLY**
Brown Stax
Rainbow SWAT
Dimir Mill
Morph my Ride
Wally Wallah
Corona Syndrome
I found Empath #2 to be very useful. In particular, it lets you Zenith for Bellower - Empath - Titan, and still have Zenith + Sneak Attack as a game ending combo in future turns.
I'm running a very similar list:
-1 Meren
-1 Punishing Fire
-1 Library
-1 Deed
+1 Reclamation Sage
+1 Fierce Empath
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Nissa, Vital Force
If you're playing Bellower, I'd want to play the Reclamation Sage. It's live against basically everything in DTB right now, and a lot of other decks too. Meren never felt important to me, but if you want a Zenith@4 target I suppose it's her or Huntmaster.
Library might be a better option than Nissa. It's definitely faster, although it puts you further onto the "6-drops or bust" plan. To be honest, since I've been running Bellower, I've had less reason to run Primeval Titan. If you have Zenith for 6, it's usually better to get Bellower into either Titan than to get Primeval directly.
Hi!
Have you consider rune-scarred demon instead of bellower?
It doesn't need the second empath to work.
It's got an evasive ability with flying to ensure to be lethal with Emrakul.
Try reading Green Sun's Zenith again and ponder its implications for a second...
Or just don't be a dick and point it out without such a condescending attitude. It's unwarranted and unnecessary.
There are currently 2 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 2 guests)
