I feel your pain. Im in the exact same situation and also sometimes come back to this thread and facepalm hard.Originally Posted by Ricardio
Need to find the motivation to test Sneak Fit online at least a few times though (glad punishing fire has been adopted and Bellower is a great innovation, keep it up gentleman)
@Echelon.. Honestly, you post like a teenager who's just discovered internet forums and thinks themselves smarter than they actually are. I find it annoying and this is a personal criticism. But whatever, I was once that guy too when I was a teenager; you're free to post how you like and people are free to comment on it.
Junk and Stoned Rhinos.
I first started out on Elves! too. Didn't let it get me down though. As for Summoner's Egg, the funny thing is that the Sneak Attack build currently going around follows almost the exact same skeleton as that deck, with a few different cards that fulfill the same functions. It even took a couple of pointers from it (like Fierce Empath no. 2). So there's that. And I did expect to be badgered about it, if that's any consolation.
I fear that in my case it's more of an occupational hazard. Telling other people that their ideas are stupid is a part of my job (and so is getting told that my ideas are stupid). The reaction I'm used to getting (or giving) after some discussion is "Oh, well alrighty then" and after that we move on to whatever is next. No need to linger or to turn it into a storm in a glass of water. It's not personal, it has nothing to do with the person that comes up with the idea, it has to do with the fact that the idea does not help with what we're trying to achieve in whatever we're doing at that time. That's how it works. It's all about having a certain mindset. Excuse me for expecting that when I take a simple poke at something, the person who came up with the idea I'm poking at understands there's no need to take that personal and is capable of coming up with a proper response of their own.
@Dissection: Whenever I'm being a dick I'll start throwing some smileys in there to lighten the mood. Let's see if that's of any help. I was hoping to see Ulysse's opinion on this, by the way, since his post is what led to my comment (that triggered you etc.) in the first place.
I think you are confusing realism and elitism. It seems to be the opinion of most of your peers that your reaction to the suggestion of Rune-Scarred Demon was unnecessarily harsh and generally unhelpful. You also appear to be further teasing people with your "jokes". You are responsible for your actions and it's not within your power to ask people to act reasonably if you don't. If you expect to be treated a certain way, don't be surprised if it comes true.
And do you hear me bitching about it in any form or way..?
No, you don't.
Do I care, in the slightest?
No, I don't.
Really.
This doesn't sound like someone who doesn't care. This sounds like someone who's trying very hard to convince people he did nothing wrong and everyone should move forward.
Being correct and being right are not the same thing.
It's owning up to my behavior rather than choosing to just gloss over it. It's "This is how I'm wired, take from that what you will". If I'd felt the need to just move forward I just would have shut up for a day or 2 and that'd be the end of that.
I'm not sure you are owning up to anything. "That's the way I am" isn't a justification; it's a rationalization. If anything, that's the definition of glossing over it.
Whatever floats your boat buddy.
I agree. Nic-Fit has good match-up with some of the Tier 1 deck (D&T, Shardless Bug, Eldrazi Stompy) but awful match-up aganist other tier 1 decks (Ant, R/G Land, Miracle Control).
The deck is a metacall deck when everyone want to play fair. That is why it's Tier 2 and never can be Tier 1.
Thinking about the Sneak-Fit builds.
- Usually when I had Zenith @ 6 available, I was finding Bellower rather than Primeval Titan, since fetching an Inferno Titan is a pretty good way of providing game ending threats.
- When I had Sneak, my first tutor target was usually Emrakul (naturally) and the backup kill condition was Inferno Titan. Bellower into either is a ton of damage.
- I never really had much use for Primeval Titan because of this. If I'm going for the kill, there are better options, and if I'm going for value I'd rather Zenith bellower since it presents a better clock and more utility - it's already a 3-for-1 or better, going for the grindy lategame with Primeval doesn't feel worth it when we can make a 6/5 and a 6/6 which are already super lethal.
- Our fatties being green isn't actually necessary. This is because any time we would Zenith for them, we can zenith Bellower into fatty instead, giving us an additional 6/5 and 1/1 (and no colour issues) in exchange for delaying our actual haymaker for a turn. This is pretty much always the right choice in my experience - Zenithing a fatty and getting it removed is way worse than Zenithing Bellower and getting it killed. Primeval Titan is no faster a clock than Bellower anyway, let alone Bellower into Inferno Titan. Unless you're playing Wolf Run, which is nice but I don't think the Grove manabase can handle it, when the two Towers are better choices in a list with Primeval Titan. I'm leaning towards running a second Badlands in the slot, since more red sources is nice for Sneak activations, but we are low on black sources at the moment.
- Cutting Primeval Titan would also allow us to drop Volrath's Stronghold for a different land, which has the major benefit of improving our (slightly clunky) manabase, since we're trying to fit Groves into a three colour deck which also plays multiple colorless lands and 6+ basics.
With that in mind I've been thinking about switching Prime Time out for something more proactive. Making a load of tapped lands to try and grind people out (while leaving your grinding plan vulnerable to Wasteland and Swords) just doesn't feel strong when you could just kill them in two turns instead.
The problem is that there isn't a creature that fits what we want to do quite right. What we want is something that kills people if we cast it into a board of Bellower + Empath + nothing, and is relevant off a Sneak Attack. If we Zenithed @6 last turn, then we have 7-8 mana available so 8 mana is our upper limit for targets. That gives us Craterhoof Behemoth, who gives us a swing for 21 when cast undisrupted into a board of Bellower + Empath. Unfortunately for us, Craterhoof is pretty unimpressive when used with Sneak Attack.
To be honest though, I think our best bet might be to just run a second Woodland Bellower in that slot. If we want to grind games against sweepers/terminus, we can do so pretty thoroughly, and against pretty much anything else we can already make Inferno Titan. It also gives us another 'instant kill if I have sneak attack' card in the deck, beyond the 2 Empaths, 4 Zeniths, Emrakul, Sidisi and the first Bellower.
It might be worth considering Empath targets which are relevant when we don't have Sneak Attack, however. We already have lethal very reliably off of a lot of cards if Sneak Attack is active - as above, we have 9+ 'you lose' cards in the deck which combo with Sneak.
In particular, I'm thinking of cards which we can tutor up which are relevant prior to our sixth land drop. Naturally Empath can fetch us up a chain giving us board presence, but the only disruption we have available is Inferno Titan, which can be a little slow, and doesn't interact with combo decks very much.
Although it doesn't work with Sneak, I'm leaning towards running Distended Mindbender somewhere in the 75. If we make an Empath off of three mana, next turn we can feed the Empath in and cast Mindbender for 2BB, so we curve out perfectly. It doesn't trigger off Sneak (although it's still a 5/5 if we need it), but it does hugely disrupt fast combo which I get the impression remains one of the deck's weaknesses.
You can always opt for a Gurmag Angler. Empath into a 1 mana 5/5 is pretty good (and can be pulled off over 2 turns w/ just 3 land as long as your graveyard is big enough) and Bellower -> Empath -> Angler isn't horrible either. It does nothing w/ Sneak Attack though (other than function as a surprise blocker).
Sorry if I'm adding literally nothing to the Jund discussion, but I haven't had the time to keep up with the thread and you people are intriguing me and convincing me to build the deck online. Anyway, no love for grave titan? The only reason I don't play him in junk is that he isn't green, but since in jund the "sneak bellower into empath into fuck you, opponent" line is very possible, why don't we play a card that says R: make a 6/6 with haste and 4 2/2s for a total of 14 power from a empty board?
This choice fits into what Navsi said, which I agree with to be honest.
If we have Sneak Attack, we'll never tutor for Titan since we can just get Emrakul instead. If we have him in hand, he's worse than the other options since Bellower is lethal and Inferno Titan has more utility.
If we don't have Sneak Attack, he's okay, but we already have board presence (since Bellower leaves us with spare bodies) from other areas, so we may as well spend our 6-drop slots on creatures with other types of utility.
Basically, Bellower - Empath - Inferno Titan gives us enough bodies that our opponent's only outs are a) Sweeper and b) kill us. In addition we get damage and a fast clock.
Bellower - Empath - Grave Titan gives us even more bodies, but our opponent's outs don't change from a) Sweeper and b) kill us. However we get a slightly slower clock, and no attached removal.
Interesting analysis, I guess I'll have to read quite a bit of pages of this thread regarding this build. Thanks for sharing your opinion.
The card I really want to play in this build is Ink-Eyes. Fetching her up with Bellower/Empath means we can Ninjutsu them back out for Ink-Eyes and get another ETB trigger, which is awesome, and taking your opponent's creatures is absurd against any midrange deck. Unfortunately she's really unreliable and absolute garbage against decks with low creature counts.
If only Silent-Blade Oni didn't have blue in its mana cost, or Throat Slitter / Okiba-Gang Shinobi cost 6 mana rather than 5...
Isn't demon of the dark schemes a similar yet somewhat better card than ink-eyes?
They both work only against creature decks, but the massacre effect seems a decent bonus?
Or massacre wurm..mmm now I want to try all this so bad
Inferno Titan is the better sweeper.
I was more interested in using the ninjutsu to get more triggers out of Bellower and/or Fierce Empath. Ink-Eyes just happens to be the only ninja that costs 6 or more and doesn't require blue mana.
IMO the fatties list is something like this:
Core:
- Emrakul
- Woodland Bellower
- Inferno Titan or Dragonlord Atarka
Sometimes / meta dependent (pick 1-2):
- Wurmcoil Engine
- Distended Mindbender
- Second Woodland Bellower
- Second Inferno Titan / Dragonlord Atarka
- Primeval Titan
That's unless someone can come up with a Godo, Bandit Warlord combo that's good enough, but at the end of the day he dies to Bolt which isn't a good position to be in.
Someone suggested worldspine wurm, have you intentionally omitted it in your list (because without SA he is useless and doesn't win on the spot like emrakul)?
If you're looking for a Empath target that can win through things that hate on emrakul (say a protected ensnaring bridge) you might consider flayer of the hatebound #dredgetech
That's not going to work. Flayer only triggers when a creature enters the battlefield from your graveyard.
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