Nvm, Echelon crushed our wildest dreams
That is true!Originally Posted by Echelon
No point playing Worldspine when you could play Emrakul. It's not like the deck plays Natural Order. If you need to finish people off after swinging for 15, and your opponent doesn't have Path, just get Bellower into Emrakul and swing for 21.
Flayer of the Hatebound is pretty good, since he dies to Sneak and Undying's for five, but I don't think he's deadly enough. You'd need to run something else as well. I could see it as a combo with another creature, but at that point you might as well just play Mikaeus the Unhallowed and Triskelion.
- Sneak Bellower, Empath, Mikaeus.
- Respond to bellower trigger in end step by Sneaking Mikaeus.
- Bellower returns from Undying, get Empath, get Triskelion.
- Sneak Triskelion.
- Win.
You're spending two slots on pretty terrible creatures on their own, though, and you need RRR and Sneak Attack up.
If you want to get around Ensnaring Bridge, your best bet is probably a maindeck Reclamation Sage to fetch with Bellower.
And Abrupt Decay. And Pernicious Deed. And (GSZ into) Eternal Witness w/ any of those. Bridge shouldn't be much of a concern.
Wow! Thanks guys for the support. It's a fact that Echelon can seems a bit like an angry bitch at first read and that you have to read the thread for a bit to know that he's not.
I think is deeply a good hearted one and just wants "to teach" people good reflexes about the deck in the hard way.
But Echelon, I think you was a bit too quick this time. When you read the list, you can see that Bellower took the slot of Grieselbrand. Grieslbrand is not green and I don't think that it's the first reason of removing him from the list. Idem for Emrakul vs worldspine wurm...
Arianrhod was stating:
I was reacting to the chain with sneak: zenith for empath>bellower>empath>Emrakul. So 4 creature slots, needs 7 mana with at least 1 green and 3 red.This is where I'm at currently. Final tuning is in progress now. I know I want Sylvan in the deck somewhere, but it's currently occupying the slot of Empath #2, which might be incorrect with Bellower. It could be that replacing a Top with Sylvan is more correct. This list is sacrificing the midrange / beatdown plan a bit, but it's become a much more effective control/combo deck, which is historically a better place to be in general. Feels very strong and I like where it's positioned going into Eternal Weekend and the weeks following.
Which can be : zenith for empath>Rune-scared>Emrakul. So 3 creature slots, needs 6 mana, 1 green, two red only.
Rune-scared demon over Grisou was already pointed a few pages ago by someone else. So I was wondering if Arian gave it a try or didn't saw it, or think is a total shit :D
So the true question I should have ask, enlightened by further posts on the thread is more Primeval vs Bellower. Two 6 mana zenitable slots. Two differents plan while tutoring.
Edit: some people would like to add a second bellower, some would like to add a second or third empath. Rune-scared is a bit both in one. So you gain one slot with it.
First off: Thank you for the kind words. Whether your reasoning is right or not (which I'll get to in a bit), my apologies for being a dick.
Secondly: Actually, the line of GSZ for Empath -> Bellower into Empath -> Emrakul also costs 6, w/ 1 green and 2 red. The Bellower trigger immediately dumps Empath #2 on the battlefield, without any extra costs. It just needs that extra Empath to function. That being as it may, your post shows that you've thought about it (which is the response I wanted to trigger). Share your thoughts, explain why you make a certain suggestion (dammit, lol), that's all I'm trying to get people to do. Detailed, well thought out arguments are much better food for thought and discussion than "Howsabout this card?" (and don't sollicit dickery, if anyone's ever noticed that). I guess it's to the Sneak Fit pilots to find out if it's better to have Bellower's added utility (read: it allows you to get a clock and an answer with a single GSZ) or if the one card the Demon saves you during the combo is worth it.
Woodland Bellower puts the creature it fetches straight onto the battlefield, so it uses the same mana as Rune-Scarred Demon does.
IMO Bellower does basically everything RSD does (since it gets you Emrakul, removal or more bodies) except finding Sneak Attack. I don't think searching up Sneak is that relevant when you've already got 7+ mana available. Being Zenithable isn't that important for our big creatures because we have Bellower/Empath to find them instead - if we lose Bellowers for other fatties, the problem of not being Zenithable comes up more again.
I really like the idea of Distended Mindbender. It means that your Empaths are not only combo kill enablers, but they gain the ability to disrupt the opponent in case you don't have a Sneak on the field. T3 Empath T4 Mindbender sounds very viable and could help clinch a win if you have already done some light disruption in turns 1-2 with Therapy.
Since the consensus seems to be leaning towards Bellower in place of Griselbrand, there really isn't a need to try to get to 8 mana for Grisel - that is further argument that Primeval Titan could be removed. Still unsure about Volrath's Stronghold...that is still a very strong land in this deck even without PrimeTime.
Primeval's purpose is to be the best bomb on an empty board state without Sneak. It "draws" 4 cards between cip+swing (and in my experience it frequently gets to swing when it does come down). The only two other bombs that compete with this effect are Griselbrand himself (who costs 8 including an unwieldy as hell BBBB) and Combustible Gearhulk (who may not draw you any cards and opens you to getting blown out by Wear/Tear). I can definitely get behind wishing we had a better option, but for now at least, he's all we've really got to fulfill that role. I'd much rather have a Consecrated Sphinx or something of that ilk, but, c'est le vie.
This could be really bad, but did you consider Tinder Wall? If you already have a threat in hand, Bellower into Tinder Wall makes RR right away for a double sneak activation. It's also good for accelerating into casting a Sneak Attack since you can go
T1 Land, Tinder Wall
T2 Land, Sneak Attack
I don't dislike the idea, but I do think it needs tested. I worry about the BB in the cost since we've moved on to Groves and the mana base has tilted away from black a bit. Mindbender gives Empaths something to do when drawn early in the game // used "fairly."
Volrath's is very good in the deck and if we replace Volraths (independent decision of Primeval, I think we want Volrath's even if we do cut Prime Time), we need to really pay close attention to our Miracles matchup. Volrath's, especially in conjunction with Phyrexian Tower, has been instrumental in beating Miracles in my experience. They just can't deal with it in any reasonably effective manner.
I don't hate it as much as I feel like I probably should, if that's any indication?
I'd put it on the pile of ideas for super combo Sneak version, same with Orcish Lumberjack. I don't think the idea is necessarily bad per se, but I do think that it's not where I, at least, want to be looking.
Edit: I'm almost thinking like this:
4 Vet
4 Lumberjack
2 Tinder Wall
2 Empath
1 E.Wit
1 Bellower
1 Inferno
1 Red Gearhulk
1 Emrakul
4 Sneak
4 Breach
4 Therapy
4 Zenith
4 Living Wish
2 Chandra ToD
22 lands
sb:
1 Emrakul
14 other things for living wish // actual sideboard
I think Bellower fills that slot better. Fetching an Inferno Titan, a Mindbender, another Bellower or an Eternal Witness feels like a perfectly serviceable drop.
If you're facing down an empty board on both sides against something like Miracles, Grixis or BUG, I don't think dropping Bellower is any worse than Primeval Titan. Even if your opponent have answers that work better against Bellower's 5 toughness (Dismember, Gurmag Angler) at the end of the day you can still trade off and still have an Inferno Titan to slam afterwards.
Edit: @Arianrhod - that Sneak/Breach list - If you're going that all-in, Summoner's Pact is probably worth it. Fetching Bellower into lethal is pretty strong.
I was about to make the same statement.
More than 70 % of my wins against Miracles with Sneak Fit were because they could not beat Primeval + Twin.
The other 30 % were because of an early resolved Sneak into a quick Kukul.
Still, the games could be very very long. Especially against Predict Miracle versions.
Legacy & Homebrew **ONLY**
Brown Stax
Rainbow SWAT
Dimir Mill
Morph my Ride
Wally Wallah
Corona Syndrome
Entirely possible RE@All-in. It's not really my kind of thing at all, but I acknowledge that it has potential and if people who are not me want to work on it, I figured I'd toss out a rough idea of a shell for them.
Bellower into Mindbender does seem like it could be pretty dirty, I agree. My biggest hang-up is, as I mentioned, Miracles. Primeval+Towers has overperformed there by a lot. Mindbender is still going to be fine there, I think, because of being a cast trigger, but I don't think it's nearly as sure of a kill as assembling the Towers is.
I also don't think that hardcasting Emrakul should be overlooked as a plan. I've won three separate games because of hardcasting Emrakul, and Primeval helped that a lot. Yes, three games out of however many isn't actually THAT often, certainly, but it's a tool that I like having in the belt.
I guess it depends a lot on what Miracles lists you're up against.
Primeval Titan:
+ If you get to untap with Towers, you can grind them to death
+ Trample
- If he gets removed before you untap, he doesn't get much done
- Doesn't present a particularly fast clock
- Resistant to removal / sweepers after first turn
Bellower:
+ Faster potential clock
+ Still finds a second threat even if removed immediately
- Doesn't grind as well (finite resources, no Towers combo for longevity)
- Easy to chump if they make tokens
- Playing out your second threat risks Terminus
The Miracles decks around me seem to be low on Mentors and have quite a lot of Entreats, which leads me to want a fast clock at the expense of grinding power, since a large percentage of the time I can't afford to durdle without hitting 'EOT six angels, kill you' before I can kill them.
Mindbender would be great in other formats. It can miss in Legacy, especially on turn 3-4 when we would ideally cast it. It also doesn't interact with Sneak Attack at all.
For reference, I greatly dislike Primeval Titan. I am fully aware it allows us to beat Miracles. That being said, there are better options if Miracles wasn't the most played deck. But that's not a thing that can be contested at the moment because of Miracles. As I said before, our creatures need to be the most efficient and highest quality since we have so few creatures to work with. I'm not sure anything else will allow that.
I think it should be a sideboard option. Against Miracles it'll be a double hit unless they have very few cards in hand, and against Storm and Show and Tell you can reasonably expect to hit twice as well. If you only get one hit, it's not necessarily the end of the world - you spent one card (Empath) and got a Thoughtseize (that exiles) and a 5/5 threat, which is pretty much exactly what you want out of a single card against a combo deck.
Yes, my bad about bellower, I disregarded the fact it put the creature into play
I disagree, with a sneak, he cost BB regardless of which other creature you sneaked previously.
But is that better than fetching Emrakul or a Titan if you already have Sneak Attack out? Can the cards in hand realistically stop you? At the point where we have Sneak Attack, throwing monsters at our opponent til they die seems more plausible than removing two cards with a 5/5 in play.
If people want to test it and find out if it works, that's a fine plan. My intuition says it's not what we need. Specifically, I feel the card is at its best when we are already winning.
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