All B/R update speculation.

[Rampart]

Honestly, fuck mana drain.

The few decks able to punish miracles properly would get dismantled by it.

Turn 2 Though-knot, kk drain, then in my turn I'll go for jace into top into spin into bs into top/mentor into 4 tokens.

Please, that's thinking it too small. You need to cast mana drain on a FOW then hard cast an Omniscience for 5 mana

[mistercakes]

so mana drain unban would mean cavern of souls -> triple in value.

[Noctalor]

so mana drain unban would mean cavern of souls -> triple in value.

Swapping 3 counterspells for 3 drains is not going to change how cavern affects the mu, it would just enlarge the amount of auto wins that miracle gets

[Megadeus]

While I think that the card is probably safe, I do not look forward to having an opponent playing this and taking about 4-5 minutes stacking his deck, and then a couple of turns later doing it again, and then maybe again. That kind of time consuming mechanical chore I think is a much stronger reason to leave it banned than pure power level aspects imho. People already think that topping takes too long :p

I mean who cares. I already just zone out and stare into space when my opponent casts brainstorm, fetches, ponders, then fetches again and then activates Jace and tries to figure out how to brainstorm again.

[colo]

I mean who cares. I already just zone out and stare into space when my opponent casts brainstorm, fetches, ponders, then fetches again and then activates Jace and tries to figure out how to brainstorm again.

Hehe, I feel you. Although I've come to appreciate these short breaks during phases of otherwise permanently concentrating on what is happening.

[taconaut]

Hehe, I feel you. Although I've come to appreciate these short breaks during phases of otherwise permanently concentrating on what is happening.

For the players who dislike the cantrips, is it more about this sort of thing than the abstract power level? I feel like I can buy the notion that Brainstorm is just too powerful for legacy in terms of what it can do (though I'm definitely one of the apologists who loves playing with it so I'd prefer to see it stay), but I would rather see cantrips than chalices across from me every day of the week. The "hate piece -> big duder" games are really not that exciting to me, and ones where people's decks are working well (which often means they are using cantrips to smooth their draws) are much more interesting.

Those that dislike the cantrip games, what do your ideal legacy matches look like? What would you rather see?

[Zombie]

I'm among the "Brainstorm is retarded" crowd but agreed, I'd rather play against Brainstorm decks all day than a bunch of Chalice/Countertop lockouts.

To elaborate:

I'd rather play Delver against Storm than a deck that lands Teeg T1 80% of the time G1. That way we'd both get to play.

Combo, to me, is fun when it's about finagling things to work or to collectively become unreasonable.

Figuring out Storm lines that give exactsies or have just enough resources is fun. The absurdity of a random Elf being a Dark Rit+Ancestral 2-in-1 pack is what combo is about. It's even about the Hoof and huge numbers in the end. It could equally well be about casting Shaman of the Pack a few times to drain them dead. It's about Grapeshotting the opponent for 49 on Turn 1 - just after the board's Goblin population grew from 0 to 120 because showboating.

Fun, to me, is D&T adding annoyance after annoyance and having to resign because I slowly become unable to play Magic well enough. But it's an assemblage that I can dismantle in parts.

G1 Dredge is not fun. RIP against Dredge is not fun.
Loam is fun. Trying to keep Loam from getting out of hand with a Spellbomb or Crypt is fun.
Show and Tell and Reanimate could be fun. They used to be, once upon a time when you were cheating things that cared about the gamestate. They aren't, because Griseltard, Emralolol and Omnidrool are cards.
The only real reason I'd miss Natural Order is keeping my pointy-eared gits remotely playable.

The common denominator in all the stupid unfun bullshit is that it's binary. You're doing nothing or you're dead. You're SOL or the opponent just got turned into a goldfish by the skillful act of casting a single card.
I like stupid bullshit. It's why I play combo in the first place, why I play Legacy in the first place. I'd just like stupid bullshit that has some nuance to it.

[rlesko]

Chalice brings deck building constraints. If you want to land it on one you have to limit the amount of cards you play that have that CMC. If you want to play Brainstorm, realisticly all you need is a Blue mana base. It's not the same thing. If adding Brainstorm to your deck was a conflicted choice, an act that meant removing other format vital cards from your deck, I am sure less people would complain.

Yet, the reward is much greater for the chalice player. the chalice player literally can win the game just by casting it on turn 1. So, I would certainly hope that a spell that can consistently be cast on turn 1 and win the game on the spot would require more concessions than a card that doesnt protect itself, doesn't stop 50% or more of your opponents deck, and doesn't win the game by itself.

[Megadeus]

I've lost far more games because my opponent had brainstorm than chalice. I had an opponent keep a ponder/brainstorm 5 land hand. He casts ponder, shuffles. Draws land. I thought seize, take brain storm. He rips another brainstorm off the top. I lose the game because my opponent skillfully kept a shitty hand and skillfully put back lands and shuffled them away because it's such a skill intensive card.

[Noctalor]

I've lost far more games because my opponent had brainstorm than chalice. I had an opponent keep a ponder/brainstorm 5 land hand. He casts ponder, shuffles. Draws land. I thought seize, take brain storm. He rips another brainstorm off the top. I lose the game because my opponent skillfully kept a shitty hand and skillfully put back lands and shuffled them away because it's such a skill intensive card.

Are you really bitching because you lost a game because your opponent played it aswell?

The land your opponent kept is perfectly fine, depending on the archetype he was playing, and you had the perfect answer to make it pretty bad but you got topdecked so he got to pley the game (which is different from winning it on the spot right?)

Lets be fair, turn 1 chalice/moon/whatever is the worst that mtg can offer, even playing elves I prefer to get terminused twice rather than not playing a single spell because the fucker sitting in front of me had 3 mana and a moon.

[nedleeds]

Maybe they'll print removal someday. Maybe even in every color. Maybe even about 3 different ways to remove it without any colors. We can hope. Maybe they'll even print lands that aren't non-basic, like 5 of them, one for each color.

[nedleeds]

Yet, the reward is much greater for the chalice player. the chalice player literally can win the game just by casting it on turn 1. So, I would certainly hope that a spell that can consistently be cast on turn 1 and win the game on the spot would require more concessions than a card that doesnt protect itself, doesn't stop 50% or more of your opponents deck, and doesn't win the game by itself.

The chalice player literally can't play 1 casting cost spells. Literally has to live with whatever rolls off the top of his library. And literally has never won a GP because the number of donkey cock hands and endless mulligans he'll have to suffer through starts to pile up after about round 7.

[Noctalor]

Maybe they'll print removal someday. Maybe even in every color. Maybe even about 3 different ways to remove it without any colors. We can hope. Maybe they'll even print lands that aren't non-basic, like 5 of them, one for each color.

check this out

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Shaman of the Pack
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
3 Natural Order
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Reclamation Sage
20 Forest
2 Birchlore Rangers
3 Heritage Druid
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
3 Quirion Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg

The chalice player literally can't play 1 casting cost spells. Literally has to live with whatever rolls off the top of his library. And literally has never won a GP because the number of donkey cock hands and endless mulligans he'll have to suffer through starts to pile up after about round 7.

The belcher player literally can't play magic the gathering, Literally has to live with whatever his opponent gets, And literally has never won a GP because the number of donkey cock hands and endless mulligans he'll have to suffer through starts to pile up after about round 7.

But still losing to him is complete bullshit, right?

[Sidneyious]

If your tired of brainstorm and ponder then I'm tired of bolt, abrupt decay, plains, goyf, mom, thalia, Sol lands, every eldrazi ever.
Or 1 dumb creature that spawns 5+ decks.

Oh look all cards that makes legacy what it is. Stop complaining or join the ranks of the cantrips that make legacy not modern.

[chezJacques]

Maybe they'll print removal someday. Maybe even in every color. Maybe even about 3 different ways to remove it without any colors. We can hope. Maybe they'll even print lands that aren't non-basic, like 5 of them, one for each color.

Not every color. To be fair, red is sorely lacking removal for a Blood Moon.

[Ronald Deuce]

So people are angry that the perfect answer to Brainstorm (and Ponder, and Entomb, and Thoughtseize, and Lion's Eye Diamond, and Stifle, and Spell Pierce, and Surgical Extraction, and Delver of Secrets, and Deathrite Shaman, and Exploration, and Lightning Bolt, and Goblin Guide, and Dark Ritual, and Gamble, and Reanimate, and Chrome Mox, and Chain Lightning, and Swords to Plowshares, and Extirpate, and Lotus Petal...) isn't versatile enough.

Personally, I don't like wood pulp because it goes into 100% of the winning decks, and it's more versatile than Brainstorm. Literally everyone at my lgs plays with it.

[EDIT: Sarcasm aside, I don't think anything should be banned.]

[Megadeus]

Are you really bitching because you lost a game because your opponent played it aswell?

The land your opponent kept is perfectly fine, depending on the archetype he was playing, and you had the perfect answer to make it pretty bad but you got topdecked so he got to pley the game (which is different from winning it on the spot right?)

Lets be fair, turn 1 chalice/moon/whatever is the worst that mtg can offer, even playing elves I prefer to get terminused twice rather than not playing a single spell because the fucker sitting in front of me had 3 mana and a moon.

Well if you had been playing brainstorm and force you could've countered the moon.

[Dark Ritual]

Are you really bitching because you lost a game because your opponent played it aswell?

The land your opponent kept is perfectly fine, depending on the archetype he was playing, and you had the perfect answer to make it pretty bad but you got topdecked so he got to pley the game (which is different from winning it on the spot right?)

Lets be fair, turn 1 chalice/moon/whatever is the worst that mtg can offer, even playing elves I prefer to get terminused twice rather than not playing a single spell because the fucker sitting in front of me had 3 mana and a moon.

You're really trying to justify a hand of 5 lands, ponder, and brainstorm? I don't know what format you're playing where doing absolutely nothing but casting cantrips is fine, but the hand folds to so many cards, not just thoughtseize taking BS. Any combo deck dreams of you keeping that hand. Chalice/blood moon decks are going to munch that hand up. Miracles, a control deck, would likely chew you up and spit you out if you kept that hand because a single counterbalance can blank you. Vendilion clique is nice. Spell pierce your turn 2 brainstorm, oh nice hand now. Hymn to tourach targeting you oops it resolved and either plucked brainstorm itself or the fodder you're trying to put back with brainstorm. There are about a thousand reasons to not keep that hand in the context of legacy. Turn 1 delver. Oops guess I should have mulliganed.

[Megadeus]

You're really trying to justify a hand of 5 lands, ponder, and brainstorm? I don't know what format you're playing where doing absolutely nothing but casting cantrips is fine, but the hand folds to so many cards, not just thoughtseize taking BS. Any combo deck dreams of you keeping that hand. Chalice/blood moon decks are going to munch that hand up. Miracles, a control deck, would likely chew you up and spit you out if you kept that hand because a single counterbalance can blank you. Vendilion clique is nice. Spell pierce your turn 2 brainstorm, oh nice hand now. Hymn to tourach targeting you oops it resolved and either plucked brainstorm itself or the fodder you're trying to put back with brainstorm. There are about a thousand reasons to not keep that hand in the context of legacy. Turn 1 delver. Oops guess I should have mulliganed.

In the context of current legacy I actually think it's a fine hand to keep. That's just speaking to the power of brainstorm though to unmulligan you and fix your hand in such a powerful fashion that that is a keep.

[Noctalor]

You're really trying to justify a hand of 5 lands, ponder, and brainstorm? I don't know what format you're playing where doing absolutely nothing but casting cantrips is fine, but the hand folds to so many cards, not just thoughtseize taking BS. Any combo deck dreams of you keeping that hand. Chalice/blood moon decks are going to munch that hand up. Miracles, a control deck, would likely chew you up and spit you out if you kept that hand because a single counterbalance can blank you. Vendilion clique is nice. Spell pierce your turn 2 brainstorm, oh nice hand now. Hymn to tourach targeting you oops it resolved and either plucked brainstorm itself or the fodder you're trying to put back with brainstorm. There are about a thousand reasons to not keep that hand in the context of legacy. Turn 1 delver. Oops guess I should have mulliganed.

I would gladly keep that hand as a Miracle player, given that the lands i have are not bad ones.

It's untrue that any combo decks want's me with that kind of hand, it is below average but it has much more potential than a mostly white hand.
I get fucked by chalice anyway.
I have 5 lands and i lose to moon?
In the miracles mirror that hand is reasonable, it's the same as the combo mu, 2 of those lands could have been a stp and a terminus and the hand would be actually worse.
Vendilion has no impact on the result you get with that hand.
If you get your bs pierced you are garbage at MTG™
That hand is actually pretty good against turach
If you play against delver you are fine with that hand as long as you can land basics, this is untrue if you play UR but at least you can try to find a CB quickly

Thoughtseize it's actually one of the best answers you can get, and Im still able to draw 3 bs 3 snaps or to just instawin because miracle topdecks are fucked up


The fact that you can lose the game doesn't change the fact that you have an hand that is able to fetch 1+3+1+1+3 cards on turn 2 if needed, and if my deck is playing 10 more cantrips, 3 snapcasters and 7/8 cards that instantly win games in fine with it, its below average, and by a long shot, but I would still keep it because im confident that it would work at least more than 50% of the times