[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

[Ronald Deuce]

I like the idea to play mox as fifth petal basically, it makes the nauseam plan stronger. And with this meta (at least, my meta, that is made by eldrazi and D&T, miracle following) I think nauseam has become more than a B-plan, the more the game goes long the more I feel bad and next to lose.
I feel confortable to have 14 lands + mox, mana sources are virtually the same, mox is more versatile (you can play it with no imprint just to increase storm count for example, it can help you to be hellbent....)
Imho we don't have anymore time to sit down, waiting for a discard card to avoid counter, or play around them, using maybe the double pif. That's why I'm also thinking to remove the second MD pif with an empty: by doing this, I have also a free slot in the sideboard, that is always great, I'd like to have a 30 cards sideboard with this meta :( (hurkyl, dread of night, carpet, confidant, massacre......so many beautiful cards)

Chrome Mox actually saved me during an Ad Nauseam yesterday, though not because I needed the mana source as much as because I had to yank a Gitaxian Probe out of my hand to let me tutor for the win. I'm not sure how much I like having the card in the deck at the moment, but it's been good so far.

I don't like running Empty in the maindeck, but it might be a metagame call. I think you're right that the focus at the moment should be on upping our speed because a quick combo is our best answer to the flood of hate we now need to face. I don't think removing the second Past in Flames is a good plan, though. It's really important against anything running countermagic, and even though it feels awkward, chaining cantrips is sometimes necessary to find what we need to close the game. Also, it lets us rely slightly less on digging for tutors, which I think is pretty important. I agree that it's slower than Petition, but it's a lot more stable.

The Empty the Warrens plan often doesn't end the game any faster because we'll need at least one attack step (probably two or sometimes more). Its principal advantage is that it lets us barf our cards before a lot of permanent-based hate can come down (an advantage over Past in Flames), but in non-hatebear/Chalice matchups, the speed of the kill is more important than the speed of the combo, and we aren't guaranteed a victory with the goblins.

Got owned yesterday. I made some bad plays and kept at least one hand that I shouldn't have kept, but I also noticed that I flooded on discard in several games, even with only six in the deck. I guess that rules out a fourth Therapy. Played my first match against Aluren in some time. Seems like one matchup outside of Miracles where Krosan Grip would've saved the day.

[taconaut]

Just chiming in to add another opinion:

- I cut the Xantids/Carpets from my sideboard a while ago; they were fine for a bit but I haven't missed them at all
- I like the Dark Petition in the main with the second PiF in the board
- I like the Chrome mox in the main as well
- Empty could be fine in the main, but I find I generally want Ad Nauseam if I want to go fast, and sometimes you can just put together five mana and an ad nauseam to refill your hand after you've been hit with discard, which empty can't do
- I play 15 lands/7 discard, and the mix feels good. I don't think 14 or 6 is necessarily wrong, but I hate being a discard short of winning or mulling no landers, so I hedge on the high side
- I actually might be crazy, but I'm currently running 2 Hurkyll's/2 Empty in the side for Eldrazi, and have taken a surprising number of matches with them; it's definitely still not even 50/50, but with a little luck you can actually make goblins and get them a reasonable amount of time. I also have an extra Chrome Mox in the board for that plan.

[Morden]

Just chiming in to add another opinion:

- I cut the Xantids/Carpets from my sideboard a while ago; they were fine for a bit but I haven't missed them at all
- I like the Dark Petition in the main with the second PiF in the board
- I like the Chrome mox in the main as well
- Empty could be fine in the main, but I find I generally want Ad Nauseam if I want to go fast, and sometimes you can just put together five mana and an ad nauseam to refill your hand after you've been hit with discard, which empty can't do
- I play 15 lands/7 discard, and the mix feels good. I don't think 14 or 6 is necessarily wrong, but I hate being a discard short of winning or mulling no landers, so I hedge on the high side
- I actually might be crazy, but I'm currently running 2 Hurkyll's/2 Empty in the side for Eldrazi, and have taken a surprising number of matches with them; it's definitely still not even 50/50, but with a little luck you can actually make goblins and get them a reasonable amount of time. I also have an extra Chrome Mox in the board for that plan.

1) Agree
2) This is an option I was thinking about......I think I will leave a pif MD, without adding another in the SB (usually when I play with 2 md I always side out 1 of them, so I see no reason to waste a slot in the side for it). Honestly I'd prefer grim tutor instead dark petition, but since I don't have it I will try with petition XD
3) Agree
4) No absolutely, empty never repleaces nauseam, it can be a second wincon with tendrils, with the help of nauseam.
5) 7 discards are ok also for me, 15 lands also. If you play mox in the main I think you can go down with 14 lands.......
6) Hurkyl is my 16th sb card, as soon I find a free slot, it enters.



about the 14 lands:about this, what would you cut? bayou? tropical? With the idea to not have the one you cut in the sideboard....

[Ronald Deuce]

about the 14 lands:about this, what would you cut? bayou? tropical? With the idea to not have the one you cut in the sideboard....

I keep a Bayou in my 'board and run the standard setup of duals with a Tropical Island in place of Island #2. Not sure how much of a difference our fetchland setup really makes, but I'm on 4x Delta, 2x Tarn, 1x Strand and Mire (budget is a factor here, but problems with this setup are very rare in my experience).

I occasionally need to mulligan for lack of lands, but I find it much more likely that I'll topdeck numerous lands when I want to get the show on the road, even with 14 lands in the maindeck and after several cantrips. Cantrip strategy is something about which I'm interested in learning more if anyone wants to PM me.

I'm starting to think that land-count is a matter of taste. I can see the importance of hitting every land drop over the course of a long game or having an extra land against decks that really hit the manabase hard (indeed, I board in the Bayou somewhat often), but I don't like waiting for the extra lands to show when I can—or should—just start barfing cards. A lot of that has to do with the decks I've been facing, I think, but having live draws feels more important than having surplus lands, now more than at any point since I started playing the deck.

[taconaut]

1) Agree
2) This is an option I was thinking about......I think I will leave a pif MD, without adding another in the SB (usually when I play with 2 md I always side out 1 of them, so I see no reason to waste a slot in the side for it). Honestly I'd prefer grim tutor instead dark petition, but since I don't have it I will try with petition XD

I think double PiF in the main is totally defensible, I just like the flexibility of the Dark Petition. I do think Grim Tutor would be good as well, but I personally can't convince myself to put down the money for it. I believe there have been, maybe, two or three times it would've been better to have Grim over Petition? I just don't think it's a several-hundred-dollar difference for me.

3) Agree
4) No absolutely, empty never repleaces nauseam, it can be a second wincon with tendrils, with the help of nauseam.

Well, for some matchups, I like to swap it, like Burn and UR delver, because of life total pressure/their susceptibility to going "wide"

5) 7 discards are ok also for me, 15 lands also. If you play mox in the main I think you can go down with 14 lands.......

I think of Chrome Mox more as a ritual than a land; it serves different purposes during an Ad Nauseam and in the context of opening hands, for instance (it makes AdN with nothing floating better, but hands with only Mox as an initial mana source are worse).

6) Hurkyl is my 16th sb card, as soon I find a free slot, it enters.



about the 14 lands:about this, what would you cut? bayou? tropical? With the idea to not have the one you cut in the sideboard....

[Serch]

@Togores What's your opinion about ANT decks with Chrome Moxes like Caleb Scherer list in #SGCBALT for example?

http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/253618

[Togores]

Its nice, I lthink its legit having one instead of the 15th land, But like empty ots not a card I really like, sometimes itrs nuts, sometimes its the worst. And drawing 2x is really bad. I like to be consisten and just draw as much good cards as possible :D

Also I dont like the 2 toa MD, only good vs burn and if TKS snaps the one drawn copy from your hand (5% senario?)

[benthetenor]

One other reason Caleb has for a second Tendrils is in case the first one gets snapped by a discard spell and then eaten by a Deathrite Shaman, as well as giving him some flexibility with pitching one to Chrome Mox if needed. His goal was to make Ad Nauseam more consistently good, and drawing a Tendrils off of an Ad Nauseam is pretty good.

[Burnplayer]

The problem of this deck is that need more business cards. Only 4 Infernal Tutors, 1 Ad Nauseam and 1 Past as bombs. Better play TES if you want to play Chrome MOx

[Togores]

This makes nauseam faster, but the second tendrills does nothing in the deck. Also usualy dont let you win faster or even beat a lot of cards that even other cards would do. more moxen + more tendrills does not much. I understand more moxen and more ad nauseam cards. Its something I have recomended to friends. The usual 1 ( may be 2) moxen + 2nd nauseam does makes your deck faster. But not the 2nd tendrills+ mox.


Also the Discard + drs thinh is bullshit. has hapnened to me but its like 1/100 games.

[Morden]

This makes nauseam faster, but the second tendrills does nothing in the deck. Also usualy dont let you win faster or even beat a lot of cards that even other cards would do. more moxen + more tendrills does not much. I understand more moxen and more ad nauseam cards. Its something I have recomended to friends. The usual 1 ( may be 2) moxen + 2nd nauseam does makes your deck faster. But not the 2nd tendrills+ mox.


Also the Discard + drs thinh is bullshit. has hapnened to me but its like 1/100 games.

this is a thing I want to try.

in general caleb's list is interesting, but please:

-2 islands??? to have in the SB 1 tropical, 1 bayou (and another mox)??
- no bouncer in SB? It seems to me a sb just to fight miracle XD. Decay is a great card, but you cannot use it for all......it requires green, under tax effects it costs 3..... surgical is ok, it can sobstitue flusterstorm in some matchups. 3 xantid?? I don't know USA metagame, maybe D&T and eldrazi are not present there.....

[Serch]

This makes nauseam faster, but the second tendrills does nothing in the deck. Also usualy dont let you win faster or even beat a lot of cards that even other cards would do. more moxen + more tendrills does not much. I understand more moxen and more ad nauseam cards. Its something I have recomended to friends. The usual 1 ( may be 2) moxen + 2nd nauseam does makes your deck faster. But not the 2nd tendrills+ mox.


Also the Discard + drs thinh is bullshit. has hapnened to me but its like 1/100 games.

Could you make us a sneak peek of your list with these kind of variants? just to start testing it..

[Togores]

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18878&iddeck=143220

There are like 4 infernal 1 mox missing.

You can work on the discard cantrips and mana base. But there is a idea.

[benthetenor]

This makes nauseam faster, but the second tendrills does nothing in the deck. Also usualy dont let you win faster or even beat a lot of cards that even other cards would do. more moxen + more tendrills does not much. I understand more moxen and more ad nauseam cards. Its something I have recomended to friends. The usual 1 ( may be 2) moxen + 2nd nauseam does makes your deck faster. But not the 2nd tendrills+ mox.


Also the Discard + drs thinh is bullshit. has hapnened to me but its like 1/100 games.

I mean, there are also a few more corner cases. It lets you use LED in situations where you have a Tendrils in hand in the face of graveyard hate (Deathrite Shaman being the most relevant G1), it leads to more games against Delver decks and against Miracles where the draw up to 8 cards, cantrip and natural Tendrils them plan is available, it increases the odds that you have a hand that can natural tendrils them using their counterspells to build storm, and it generally reduces your reliance on getting a big, counterable spell to resolve. I'm not really a fan of lots of Tendrils in a combo deck in general (I believe that the biggest draw to a combo deck is a compact win condition) but all of those little edges, plus the 5% that you gave it in your post and the 1% that you gave it above, could well add up to a fairly significant edge, depending on matchups.

[nevilshute]

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18878&iddeck=143220

There are like 4 infernal 1 mox missing.

You can work on the discard cantrips and mana base. But there is a idea.

No Past in Flames?

[Togores]

Its missing or seems so.
The list was just some inspiration.

[Ronald Deuce]

I almost never keep a hand with Tendrils in it. It's worked a few times, but usually it's like an automatic mulligan without the scry.

Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I don't see any point in running multiples in the main, especially because that actually makes Surgical Extraction more of a problem.

[nevilshute]

I almost never keep a hand with Tendrils in it. It's worked a few times, but usually it's like an automatic mulligan without the scry.

Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I don't see any point in running multiples in the main, especially because that actually makes Surgical Extraction more of a problem.

Tendrils in the opening hand is not always bad tbh. Tendrils, a ritual and a Past in Flames in the opening hand and you're not far off looping PiF to win with no need for a tutor. I played 2 tendrils in the main in Lille (http://mtgpulse.com/event/20751#295194) and was largely happy with it. It was great against the delver decks that would often be at 15 or less life after turn 3 from probes and fetches and forces. It makes baby tendrils split over two turns of the game (not necessarily, in fact rarely concurrent turns) a legit plan. Main deck 2 tendrils doesn't really seem to have issues with Surgical as that is not a main deck card meaning you only have to contend with it post board, at which point you might not want the 2nd tendrils - depending on matchup. But even if the opponent is running surgicals I'm not sure I understand why that would be a problem? Because you are more likely to get a tendrils into your yard without killing the opp, either through having it discarded or by firing off a non lethal tendrils? I don't think that's a very common problem tbh, but sure.

I'm not currently running double Tendrils in the main. Mostly it doesn't feel good enough against the non-blue decks and the combo decks. But I wouldn't be averse to tampering with that approach again another time.

[Ronald Deuce]

Tendrils in the opening hand is not always bad tbh. Tendrils, a ritual and a Past in Flames in the opening hand and you're not far off looping PiF to win with no need for a tutor. I played 2 tendrils in the main in Lille (http://mtgpulse.com/event/20751#295194) and was largely happy with it. It was great against the delver decks that would often be at 15 or less life after turn 3 from probes and fetches and forces. It makes baby tendrils split over two turns of the game (not necessarily, in fact rarely concurrent turns) a legit plan. Main deck 2 tendrils doesn't really seem to have issues with Surgical as that is not a main deck card meaning you only have to contend with it post board, at which point you might not want the 2nd tendrils - depending on matchup. But even if the opponent is running surgicals I'm not sure I understand why that would be a problem? Because you are more likely to get a tendrils into your yard without killing the opp, either through having it discarded or by firing off a non lethal tendrils? I don't think that's a very common problem tbh, but sure.

I'm not currently running double Tendrils in the main. Mostly it doesn't feel good enough against the non-blue decks and the combo decks. But I wouldn't be averse to tampering with that approach again another time.

Yeah, I agree with you. The main problem I have regarding Tendrils in hand is that we have to work around it if we're trying to tutor for something to enable the combo, and that's a spot where Surgical can really bite us hard. Of course, Surgical on a Ritual there is just as big a problem, but I think we're tipping our hand if we have to discard the Tendrils ourselves off of LED in order to get the combo going.

I have had opening-hand Tendrils win me games. Decks like Reanimator that dump a lot of life immediately can be vulnerable to Tendrils for 12, for instance.

[ScottW]

I tried getting jiggy with it... played a league with the Caleb Scherer double island, 14 land, mana base AND a doomsday sideboard for the miracles matchup. Won't say it really panned out all that well but was fun matches none the less:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...RKu7itsWcvcBZ4

Thanks for the videos. I'd prefer a different list but it's hard to complain with all the great and diverse content you have recorded and have made available. I have to admit that my favorite part was the "glass" of wine. Seemed like an enjoyable evening.