[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Echelon]

I will agree that the suntitan is bad and should just be a meren as it was mediocre as hell when I played it this weekend and that the sorin could stand to be something cheaper I am not really sure what though maybe just have it be the Garruk Relentless and have another card in the board.

How do you manage to screw up with Sun Titan..?

Wouldn't it be easier for you to just start with one of the cookiecutter lists, learn to play it well and start changing it to your liking from there..? I'm getting the idea you're missing a lot of little intricacies of the deck. Piloting this deck properly is actually more difficult than one would think. It takes an intimate knowledge of your own list and a good understanding of your various MUs.

[Zirath]

Yes, I agree but have you ever got the oppnent to sac a planeswalker?

When their only valid victim is Jace, yes. Which happened at EW.

[Ricardio]

http://i.imgur.com/kjbAoLY.png
Made some changes, bought a 26 ticket Atraxa and has been very useful. Currently 2-0 in games against miracles.
I am hopeful for this magical christmasland EDH deck.

[rubblekill]

http://i.imgur.com/kjbAoLY.png
Made some changes, bought a 26 ticket Atraxa and has been very useful. Currently 2-0 in games against miracles.
I am hopeful for this magical christmasland EDH deck.

Interesting list. Do you board kambal only vs combo (quite rare online)?
Do you like the 2ts in the main? Me and square have been liking them so far

[Echelon]

For what MUs do you intend to bring in Kambal (other than ANT/TES/Burn)?

And why Kambal over, say, Lost Legacy?

[Neo900]

Often times I see new NicFit players who are making mistakes with there Zenith. The answer to the question " why you didn't search for xy?" is always I didn't know that I have it.
Another problem is that you have many options with much mana and as a new inexperienced player you are likely to choose the wrong option.
And of course cabal therapy needs a good knowledge about other decks around you.

[Navsi]

Made some changes, bought a 26 ticket Atraxa and has been very useful. Currently 2-0 in games against miracles.
I am hopeful for this magical christmasland EDH deck.

Looks cool. Don't you just autolose to Lands? The only interaction anywhere in the deck is Extirpate as far as I can tell, and your clock isn't exactly fast.

Do you think 4 sweeper,Vindicate and 3 Decay is better than running some copies of Swords / Path? Seems like the exile removal could be relevant (and your lategame is good enough that you aren't too worried about the Swords lifegain).

In 4-colour I liked Deathrite over the fourth Veteran / STE, just because you're naturally a little short on basic lands and it makes your topdecks a bit better / gives you maindeck interaction with graveyard strategies. A Scavenging Ooze is also hilarious with Atraxa.

The manabase I ran was similar to yours, with:
+1 Fetchland
+1 Phyrexian Tower
-1 Savannah
-1 Tropical Island
-1 Swamp

[Echelon]

@Neo: Another common mistake is misjudging whether or not they're the beatdown at any given time in a match.

[Navsi]

@Arianrhod

How'd you feel about updating the primer at some point soon? We've just had some new lists appearing with the Atraxa builds, but I think we have a pretty consistent set of options at the moment.

- BUG (Birthing Pod, Planeswalkers)
- Abzan (Rhinos, Stoneforge, Spike Combo, Enchantment)
- Jund (Sneak Attack, Punishing, Scapewish)
- 4-Color (Atraxa, Punishing Rhinos)

Anything I'm missing that might want including?

[Ricardio]

Interesting list. Do you board kambal only vs combo (quite rare online)?
Do you like the 2ts in the main? Me and square have been liking them so far

There is more combo than you give credit on mtgo, at least my luck has shown. I would always give it consideration seeing as its a very solid effect. Each noncreature cast by the opponent negates a tendrils. I am not sure it is where we need to be but I believe it deserves a shot.
the 2 ts have been good. I felt the deck was without many tools to combat decks game 1 so I threw those in.

For what MUs do you intend to bring in Kambal (other than ANT/TES/Burn)?

And why Kambal over, say, Lost Legacy?

combo and control: ideally they cantrip for the answer and then waste it which seems fine.
I think lost legacy is an atrocious card that purposely punishes you for getting cards out of your opponents hand. I would rather pay a red for a better spell that cant be force'd

Looks cool. Don't you just autolose to Lands? The only interaction anywhere in the deck is Extirpate as far as I can tell, and your clock isn't exactly fast.

Do you think 4 sweeper,Vindicate and 3 Decay is better than running some copies of Swords / Path? Seems like the exile removal could be relevant (and your lategame is good enough that you aren't too worried about the Swords lifegain).

In 4-colour I liked Deathrite over the fourth Veteran / STE, just because you're naturally a little short on basic lands and it makes your topdecks a bit better / gives you maindeck interaction with graveyard strategies. A Scavenging Ooze is also hilarious with Atraxa.

The manabase I ran was similar to yours, with:
+1 Fetchland
+1 Phyrexian Tower
-1 Savannah
-1 Tropical Island
-1 Swamp

Lands wasn't really on my radar and I may need to make some room for diverse removal.
3 deed, 1 deluge, 1 vindicate are great. 3 decays are absolutely necessary with all the blue online.
I will always play 4 vet/4 therapy.
Path is so much better than stp in nic fit. I won't argue bc it seems stupid to me and illogical.
I could see a scooze in the mix but I doubt its on par with the cards im playing in regards to power level.
I don't know how you can play 3 vet and a tower in 4color fit, seems like you didn't think that through

[Navsi]

stupid and illogical.
I don't know how you can play 3 vet and a tower in 4color fit, seems like you didn't think that through

Thank you for your polite responses.

You never actually said why you aren't playing Path, incidentally.

The more colours you play, the more duals/fetches your mana base wants. That gives you less slots for basic lands, which means drawing the second/third Veteran Explorer is a lot worse in 4c (where you play 5-6 basics) than in 3c (where you can play 6-7 basics easily) since it's less likely to actually have targets, especially if you're also playing STE.
Deathrite, on the other hand, gets stronger in 4c decks because:
- you're more likely to get wastelanded off your splash colours, which Deathrite helps against
- you probably only need your splash colour once or twice a game, so a Deathrite can be enough by itself.

[truthfulcake]

Lands wasn't really on my radar and I may need to make some room for diverse removal.
3 deed, 1 deluge, 1 vindicate are great. 3 decays are absolutely necessary with all the blue online.
I will always play 4 vet/4 therapy.
Path is so much better than stp in nic fit. I won't argue bc it seems stupid to me and illogical.
I could see a scooze in the mix but I doubt its on par with the cards im playing in regards to power level.
I don't know how you can play 3 vet and a tower in 4color fit, seems like you didn't think that through

What's the deluge for anyway? 3 deed should be enough in the way of board wipes. Throwing in some number of Paths (2 maybe?) would be an idea though. You really don't have answer to Marit Lage otherwise. I'm not sure what your board is like though. Some number of Extirpate are good, but they could be a bit slow against a quick Marit Lage, since a lands player could probably just jam it asap against you. Then again, I don't know what the online meta is like, might be almost no lands.

I beg to differ. Ramp is the first thing people tend to skip on, and often in favor of CMC >= 5 cards. That's just silly. Heck, looking at what we came up with for the SE version of the deck even my list is still a ramp slot short of the mark.

The thing is - the ramp cards we do play usually also function as removal bait, ensuring our opponent doesn't have the removal anymore when the actual threat comes down. Or rather, that's how I play out my games. Feed my opponent a DRS or 2 or whatever little crud I have, then overpower them with a Tireless Tracker (since they're now fresh out of Bolts/ADs). Advance my board state, and at some point go "Rhino, Rhino, Rhino".

I'm not saying we should skip on ramp, just that deck already has plenty as is to go off. The base core of a Nic Fit deck seems to be 4 Vet and 2 DRS, maybe a Sakura if you want, and a Tower thrown in there if your mana won't hate you for it. Between all of that (And 4x GSZ to grab an explorer if you only have half the combo. I'm not sure if it's right to zenith for an explorer on T2, but everytime I've done it it's worked out so far), that's enough to get your engine going. Anything more than that seems excessive, and I'd rather have some extra removal than extra ramp.

Thank you for your polite responses.

You never actually said why you aren't playing Path, incidentally.

The more colours you play, the more duals/fetches your mana base wants. That gives you less slots for basic lands, which means drawing the second/third Veteran Explorer is a lot worse in 4c (where you play 5-6 basics) than in 3c (where you can play 6-7 basics easily) since it's less likely to actually have targets, especially if you're also playing STE.
Deathrite, on the other hand, gets stronger in 4c decks because:
- you're more likely to get wastelanded off your splash colours, which Deathrite helps against
- you probably only need your splash colour once or twice a game, so a Deathrite can be enough by itself.

I think you're probably right with going with a 3rd DRS over a 4th Explorer but I also think you want to see an Explorer in your opening hand as often as possible, even in four color manabases. Which means running 4 to maximise your percentages. Having to zenith for one is okay, but it'd be better and faster just to have it in your hand.

I will agree that the suntitan is bad and should just be a meren as it was mediocre as hell when I played it this weekend and that the sorin could stand to be something cheaper I am not really sure what though maybe just have it be the Garruk Relentless and have another card in the board.

Sun Titan is dope, especially with the option to blow up and recur a Deed every turn. Grave Titan is often just better because it helps when you're behind a lot more, but Sun Titan is still really good.

[Navsi]

I run 5 ramp creatures and 4 zeniths base, with an additional ramp spell if I'm playing 6-drops.

I generally play more low-cmc options (Stoneforge, etc) so I can see the justification for running 7 mana guys if you're running 9 4cmc+ planeswalkers like Ricardio.

[Ricardio]

Thank you for your polite responses.

You never actually said why you aren't playing Path, incidentally.

The more colours you play, the more duals/fetches your mana base wants. That gives you less slots for basic lands, which means drawing the second/third Veteran Explorer is a lot worse in 4c (where you play 5-6 basics) than in 3c (where you can play 6-7 basics easily) since it's less likely to actually have targets, especially if you're also playing STE.
Deathrite, on the other hand, gets stronger in 4c decks because:
- you're more likely to get wastelanded off your splash colours, which Deathrite helps against
- you probably only need your splash colour once or twice a game, so a Deathrite can be enough by itself.

My apologies, I always get flustered when the path over stp debate comes up because its the same thing everytime and I feel like im stuck in groundhog day.
I can see playing a drs but im locked in pretty hard to 4 vet. I need to play my spells and vet does that. I am open to suggestions but there are a few untouchables for me atm and that's one of them.

What's the deluge for anyway? 3 deed should be enough in the way of board wipes. Throwing in some number of Paths (2 maybe?) would be an idea though. You really don't have answer to Marit Lage otherwise. I'm not sure what your board is like though. Some number of Extirpate are good, but they could be a bit slow against a quick Marit Lage, since a lands player could probably just jam it asap against you. Then again, I don't know what the online meta is like, might be almost no lands.

Deluge is 3 mana wipe which I feel like I need on occasion, same case for vindicate.
Paths are definitely on my mind now and lands is definitely a matchup I need to think about.
The meta has some lands but I should be moderately ready for most matchups.

I run 5 ramp creatures and 4 zeniths base, with an additional ramp spell if I'm playing 6-drops.

I generally play more low-cmc options (Stoneforge, etc) so I can see the justification for running 7 mana guys if you're running 9 4cmc+ planeswalkers like Ricardio.

I agree. the math on pw fit is odd but at this moment, its more along the lines of a concept. I doubt it 6-3s a 9 rounder.

[Arianrhod]

@Arianrhod

How'd you feel about updating the primer at some point soon? We've just had some new lists appearing with the Atraxa builds, but I think we have a pretty consistent set of options at the moment.

- BUG (Birthing Pod, Planeswalkers)
- Abzan (Rhinos, Stoneforge, Spike Combo, Enchantment)
- Jund (Sneak Attack, Punishing, Scapewish)
- 4-Color (Atraxa, Punishing Rhinos)

Anything I'm missing that might want including?

This is a good plan. We're also to the point where our thread is getting bulky again and needs retired / reborn.

If anyone is bored and can track down links for video feature coverage or links to particularly noteworthy finishes (say, tournaments with 50 people or more), that would be an amazing help. Writing the actual primer doesn't take me that long usually, the problem is the clerical work pulling together everything at the end.

If people have specific versions / lists for the various archetypes, now/soon would be a good time to post them. I think we're somewhere around here:

-) BUG

Pod
Planeswalkers (largely anecdotal)
Deadeye (largely anecdotal)

-) Abzan

Pod
SE Fit
Control
Rhino
Stoneforge (is this distinct enough from SE?)
Enchantment (fringe as yet, but worth noting)

-) Jund

Sneak
Scapewish (largely anecdotal, sadly)
PFire Control

-) 4c

Atraxa White (core abzan)
Atraxa Blue (core bug)
Punishing Rhinos

-) Frontiers

RUG
Reanimator
Others?

It's kind of amazing how much more work GBW has had, as a color combination, beyond BUG or Jund.

[Brael]

The more colours you play, the more duals/fetches your mana base wants. That gives you less slots for basic lands, which means drawing the second/third Veteran Explorer is a lot worse in 4c (where you play 5-6 basics) than in 3c (where you can play 6-7 basics easily) since it's less likely to actually have targets, especially if you're also playing STE.

Instead of cutting your Vets, have you considered that 4c actually wants to cut down on business spells? Giving up quantity for quality? That way you keep Vets, and you keep a basic count. It just means that the cards you're casting need to be really good.

T
-) Abzan

Pod
SE Fit
Control
Rhino
Stoneforge (is this distinct enough from SE?)
Enchantment (fringe as yet, but worth noting)

SFM builds are very different from SE build. They're trying to do some of the same things such as including mana sinks all along the curve but SFM plays fewer bodies, and less card manipulation. I think it's closer to Rhino, but instead of Siege Rhinos you're putting an equipment on something and hitting even harder.

[Navsi]

It's kind of amazing how much more work GBW has had, as a color combination, beyond BUG or Jund.

I think it's just because there are more 'build around' cards in white that work well with the deck.
Academy Rector / Starfield
Stoneforge Mystic
Siege Rhino
Sigarda

All play into the deck's strengths while providing strong game ending threats. You also get unconditional removal in Swords/Path.

The build around cards in red see just as much attention:
Sneak Attack
Scapeshift / Valakut

There's just less of them. Punishing Fire Control has trouble because of its lack of access to Swords-type unconditional removal (important for a non-tempo based control deck) and its lack of resilient finishers (although Nissa, Vital Force may be worth it now and change that).

Blue has a few build arounds / payoff cards too:
JTMS
Deadeye Navigator / other game ending bombs

Blue has the problem of, while its bombs end the game effectively, they don't have an actually fast clock (which sucks) and most of your good creatures aren't Zenith-able (which also sucks), but the blue lists tend to actually control the game pretty well.


Basically Blue can control the game but not end it, and Red can end the game quickly, but not reliably, and can't answer some things. White brings both universal answers and resilient threats, so it's the easiest place to slot in whatever supplemental cards you prefer.

Birthing Pod bypasses the 'Green creatures are just better' problem which is why it sees play in BUG and Jund builds as well as Abzan, I think?

[gth842s]

Throwing in some number of Paths (2 maybe?) would be an idea though. You really don't have answer to Marit Lage otherwise.


The base core of a Nic Fit deck seems to be 4 Vet and 2 DRS, maybe a Sakura if you want, and a Tower thrown in there if your mana won't hate you for it. Between all of that (And 4x GSZ to grab an explorer if you only have half the combo. I'm not sure if it's right to zenith for an explorer on T2, but everytime I've done it it's worked out so far), that's enough to get your engine going. Anything more than that seems excessive, and I'd rather have some extra removal than extra ramp.


I think you're probably right with going with a 3rd DRS over a 4th Explorer but I also think you want to see an Explorer in your opening hand as often as possible, even in four color manabases. Which means running 4 to maximise your percentages. Having to zenith for one is okay, but it'd be better and faster just to have it in your hand.


Sun Titan is dope, especially with the option to blow up and recur a Deed every turn. Grave Titan is often just better because it helps when you're behind a lot more, but Sun Titan is still really good.

Just a few thoughts -

1) If you're running white, I totally agree that you really should run 1-2 path or swords. It's one of the biggest attractions to the white splash.

2) I've never understood the theory between 2-3 deathrite shamans. If you have a meta full of graveyard decks then sure, go for it, but Nic Fit starts behaving like Nic Fit around 4 CMC (tireless tracker is for all intents and purposes a four-drop, rhino, meren, atraxa, etc). Your second, and especially your third DRS is taking up space better occupied by the removal that gets you to the late game, which we dominate.

3) Not running 4 explorers is silly. The core of the deck is therapy + explorer. Explorer is a great chump blocker in situations where a goyf or eldrazi are beating down, buys you time against delver or ramps you into the late game, etc. We play SDT to avoid drawing explorers as the game goes later.

4) I've recently preferred Grave Titan + Primeval Titan for my two 6-drop slots. PT fetches stronghold and tower and you've got a great recursion engine going for grindy matchups and the Grave Titan will end the game as long as your opponent doesn't play a Terminus.

[Brael]

Basically Blue can control the game but not end it, and Red can end the game quickly, but not reliably, and can't answer some things. White brings both universal answers and resilient threats, so it's the easiest place to slot in whatever supplemental cards you prefer.

Birthing Pod bypasses the 'Green creatures are just better' problem which is why it sees play in BUG and Jund builds as well as Abzan, I think?

Enter Saskia. A reliable red way to quickly end the game, while still forcing you to keep access to white for Path.

It's definitely a build I'm interested in playing with but I haven't completely figured out how to build it yet. I think it's base Jund splashing white and gives up Sigarda in favor of Nissa at 5.

It's definitely not worth more than a footnote in the 4c/frontier section at the moment, but it's among the things I really want to try out when I get a chance.

I think Pod is most popular in BUG because cards like Clique, Strix, and Glen Elendra are just obvious value to pod into, not to mention the Brainstorm allure. The white cards just don't interact as well. I actually think Pod would be a good Atraxa shell myself.

[Navsi]

Enter Saskia. A reliable red way to quickly end the game, while still forcing you to keep access to white for Path.

It's definitely a build I'm interested in playing with but I haven't completely figured out how to build it yet. I think it's base Jund splashing white and gives up Sigarda in favor of Nissa at 5.

It's definitely not worth more than a footnote in the 4c/frontier section at the moment, but it's among the things I really want to try out when I get a chance.

I think Pod is most popular in BUG because cards like Clique, Strix, and Glen Elendra are just obvious value to pod into, not to mention the Brainstorm allure. The white cards just don't interact as well. I actually think Pod would be a good Atraxa shell myself.

Does Saskia actually give you much that White doesn't already do, though? Atraxa does something White doesn't (be a Zenithable Baneslayer that costs less than 6 mana), and helps against aggro decks because of that. Saskia isn't really good against aggro decks (since she doesn't do much unless you're attacking) but she also loses to Karakas just like Atraxa does, so she's basically only relevant for putting fast pressure onto combo decks. Is that good enough?