[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[MDHackbert]

I am going to re-record my deck tech vid for the Sneak list above. What would be a good flow for the DT?
- Reason for variant choice
- categories of cards
- etc.

[kalvin66rocks]

do u really think u need krosan grip? just to kill top against miracles?
for me tsunami is a very good sideboard card against all the blue decks. beat miracles yesterday and ur delver.
they have no answer if u kill their lands.

I have kambal as well but never played him so far, is he really that good in combo match ups? you can't tutor him which seems is a big disadvantage.

in my opinion:
- krosan
- kambal
+ tsunami
+ thoughtseize

I agree with that. I swapped out the Krosan Grip for the Tsunami and it seems much better in that matchup.

I have really been looking Kambal, also I can't find my canonists right now so he will have to do.

Also of note, I can't find my Guess, the Traitor so unless the shop I'm going to has one I won't be including that today.

My current sideboard:
1 Tsunami
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2 Lost Legacy
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Golgari Charm
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Carpet of Flowers

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[Arianrhod]

I am going to re-record my deck tech vid for the Sneak list above. What would be a good flow for the DT?
- Reason for variant choice
- categories of cards
- etc.

Should probably at least mention other card choices that you opted out of (Primeval Titan being the biggest one, I'd say).

[rubblekill]

Should probably at least mention other card choices that you opted out of (Primeval Titan being the biggest one, I'd say).

I have a question for you. In a meta (MTGO) where, apart from a massive miracles presence, every deck is a very fast deck (burn reanimator delver eldrazi, sometimes storm), would it be suboptimal to put prime time in the sideboard? Because to me it seemed a slow and grindy card (although amazing vs cancer.dec), and thus he got relegated in the sb.

[square_two]

I just bought into Sneak Fit on MTGO. My plan is to run through some leagues and record them over the next month for the YouTubes. I will link here as I finish the playlists. The first set will likely be me going over the replay until i get comfortable recording. Hopefully, I can provide something useful to link in the future Primer.

Good luck!

I haven't had the best time online, still under 50% match win myself. Sometimes it feels like there is a lot of miracles and combo, but then I'll reflect on my actual past few matches and recall a Vial Goblins match followed by Grixis...had a frustrating miracles loss last week due to me completely forgetting that I had E Wit as a GSZ target. It happens.

I've also considered streaming and may try to start up sometime after the holidays.

[Arianrhod]

I have a question for you. In a meta (MTGO) where, apart from a massive miracles presence, every deck is a very fast deck (burn reanimator delver eldrazi, sometimes storm), would it be suboptimal to put prime time in the sideboard? Because to me it seemed a slow and grindy card (although amazing vs cancer.dec), and thus he got relegated in the sb.

So, here's my problem with this. Miracles is a couple of things:

-) Major meta share
-) Played by many good players (meaning if you want to do well in an event, you need to expect to play vs it at the top tables)
-) Grindy, long matches even for Sneak

These things mean that, assuming we want to do well in an event, we should build with Miracles firmly in mind. Now, as you've mentioned, there is a dichotomy between Miracles and much of the rest of the format -- you'll run into Jund, Shardless, etc now and then, sure, but generally speaking the format is Miracles (slow) vs everything else (fast), in a strictly speed sense. One of the best ways to beat Miracles is to preboard for them. If you can secure game 1, you're usually looking at, at worst, a draw on the round. It is very hard for them to fight through us in general (as, to be fair, it is for us to fight through them) -- especially if you have adequate answers to Jace TMS, which is one reason I favor the 2x To the Slaughter in the board over other options like Diabolic Edict or Pithing Needle (Needle is too easily Counterbalanced, Wear//Teared, Council's Judgmented, etc). Kill the fucker and be done with it. Anyway, both decks have trouble fighting through the other, which means games take a while. Fast wins /can/ happen on either side, but it's unlikely. If we win game 1 in 20 minutes (which is actually a bit fast for the matchup), then that means Miracles has to win two games in 15 minutes each, including shuffling, sideboarding, etc.

This makes playing for game 1 as best we can a viable strategy, however, we don't want to go overboard on it. Our sideboard for Miracles is extensive just because of the raw number of bad cards we have vs them (4 Vet 4 Therapy). If we run too many "anti miracles" cards maindeck, we unbalance the deck vs the faster rest of the metagame because we STILL need to have those 8 cards in the board for Miracles no matter what else we do. This means we need to run 2-3 cards that synergize with the deck's gameplan, that aren't actively bad in most situations, and that are the best of the best at what they do.

Primeval Titan is the best for this, by far. At worst, Primeval's failcase is that he is a 6/6 trample who can't be Abrupt Decayed, who gives you +2 virtual card advantage by pulling two lands from your deck. Even if he never manages to swing, he's still a flat +2. At his best, he gets to assemble Two Towers on comes-into-play and then swing afterward, which gives you +4 vca and an engine. Primeval is Zenithable (x=6 means cmc=7, immune to counterbalance), plays well with recursion (in a long game he turns your deck into straight gas), and powers up Emrakul (gets you closer to hardcast, which almost certainly WILL kill Miracles). He's also a card draw engine with Nissa, who we've started to move maindeck as the other primary preboard card.

This comes at the cost of 1 deck slot. He has all of these synergies, with 1 slot. The number of single, solitary cards that have that high of a % impact on a given matchup is very, very low, and I think that Primeval is very important to Sneak because of that. Yeah, he's kinda junky in most other matchups, and he's going to get sideboarded out a lot. But when you need him, you really need him, and if you intend on doing well in tournaments, you have to prepare for and assume that you will need him.

Hope that helps.

[rubblekill]

So, here's my problem with this. Miracles is a couple of things:

-) Major meta share
-) Played by many good players (meaning if you want to do well in an event, you need to expect to play vs it at the top tables)
-) Grindy, long matches even for Sneak

These things mean that, assuming we want to do well in an event, we should build with Miracles firmly in mind. Now, as you've mentioned, there is a dichotomy between Miracles and much of the rest of the format -- you'll run into Jund, Shardless, etc now and then, sure, but generally speaking the format is Miracles (slow) vs everything else (fast), in a strictly speed sense. One of the best ways to beat Miracles is to preboard for them. If you can secure game 1, you're usually looking at, at worst, a draw on the round. It is very hard for them to fight through us in general (as, to be fair, it is for us to fight through them) -- especially if you have adequate answers to Jace TMS, which is one reason I favor the 2x To the Slaughter in the board over other options like Diabolic Edict or Pithing Needle (Needle is too easily Counterbalanced, Wear//Teared, Council's Judgmented, etc). Kill the fucker and be done with it. Anyway, both decks have trouble fighting through the other, which means games take a while. Fast wins /can/ happen on either side, but it's unlikely. If we win game 1 in 20 minutes (which is actually a bit fast for the matchup), then that means Miracles has to win two games in 15 minutes each, including shuffling, sideboarding, etc.

This makes playing for game 1 as best we can a viable strategy, however, we don't want to go overboard on it. Our sideboard for Miracles is extensive just because of the raw number of bad cards we have vs them (4 Vet 4 Therapy). If we run too many "anti miracles" cards maindeck, we unbalance the deck vs the faster rest of the metagame because we STILL need to have those 8 cards in the board for Miracles no matter what else we do. This means we need to run 2-3 cards that synergize with the deck's gameplan, that aren't actively bad in most situations, and that are the best of the best at what they do.

Primeval Titan is the best for this, by far. At worst, Primeval's failcase is that he is a 6/6 trample who can't be Abrupt Decayed, who gives you +2 virtual card advantage by pulling two lands from your deck. Even if he never manages to swing, he's still a flat +2. At his best, he gets to assemble Two Towers on comes-into-play and then swing afterward, which gives you +4 vca and an engine. Primeval is Zenithable (x=6 means cmc=7, immune to counterbalance), plays well with recursion (in a long game he turns your deck into straight gas), and powers up Emrakul (gets you closer to hardcast, which almost certainly WILL kill Miracles). He's also a card draw engine with Nissa, who we've started to move maindeck as the other primary preboard card.

This comes at the cost of 1 deck slot. He has all of these synergies, with 1 slot. The number of single, solitary cards that have that high of a % impact on a given matchup is very, very low, and I think that Primeval is very important to Sneak because of that. Yeah, he's kinda junky in most other matchups, and he's going to get sideboarded out a lot. But when you need him, you really need him, and if you intend on doing well in tournaments, you have to prepare for and assume that you will need him.

Hope that helps.

Well, thank you very much for using your time to answer to my question in this polite and in depth manner.

[Brael]

Been seeing a lot of praise for Nissa, Vital Force over the past 20 pages or so. I haven't actually picked one up to play yet though.

Lets say you only have room for a single 5 drop. Is Nissa good enough to replace Sigarda? They seem similar to me. Both hit hard, both cost 5, both are difficult to deal with. Ignoring any color issues, if you could only pick one 5 drop, which would it be?

[square_two]

Been seeing a lot of praise for Nissa, Vital Force over the past 20 pages or so. I haven't actually picked one up to play yet though.

Lets say you only have room for a single 5 drop. Is Nissa good enough to replace Sigarda? They seem similar to me. Both hit hard, both cost 5, both are difficult to deal with. Ignoring any color issues, if you could only pick one 5 drop, which would it be?

I'm going to go out and say that Nissa is better than Sigarda if you can only fit in one. Nissa so far to me feels good to great (mainly great) in every single matchup. Against combo it is 5 more damage thanks to the hasty forest. Against decks where you need a second Deed to save yourself and clench a game, she grabs it back for you from the grave. Same applies to any deck where you might need a vital hate permanent. Miracles may be the case where either is great - although I still think I'd rather have Nissa in hand to either kill Jace with a hasty forest, or just out draw them for the rest of the game. Nissa either gets quick damage in, or allows you to gain a lot of advantage in a longer game.

[Brael]

I'm going to go out and say that Nissa is better than Sigarda if you can only fit in one. Nissa so far to me feels good to great (mainly great) in every single matchup. Against combo it is 5 more damage thanks to the hasty forest. Against decks where you need a second Deed to save yourself and clench a game, she grabs it back for you from the grave. Same applies to any deck where you might need a vital hate permanent. Miracles may be the case where either is great - although I still think I'd rather have Nissa in hand to either kill Jace with a hasty forest, or just out draw them for the rest of the game. Nissa either gets quick damage in, or allows you to gain a lot of advantage in a longer game.

This is kind of what I was thinking. I could replace Sigarda with Nissa, and then replace Meren with Thrun for a similar card that's hard to interact with.

[volrathxp]

Haven't seen it mentioned yet but for those that care,

Sneak Fit was mentioned here: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...h-jonathan-orr

And that Rhino Atraxa list was mentioned here: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...ssic-knoxville

@Ricardio and Rubble, how is the online metagame doing? Has D&T started appearing more yet? Has miracles subsided at all? I've stopped playing entirely now (queue sad violins) overwatch is more convinient and fun..

The Sneak List was mine, from my report for the Classic.

Haven't posted in a bit, still rocking the Sneak Fit. It's too much fun. I actually just started a subreddit devoted to Nic Fit discussion not too long ago. http://www.reddit.com/r/nicfitmtg

:)

[volrathxp]

So, here's my problem with this. Miracles is a couple of things:

-) Major meta share
-) Played by many good players (meaning if you want to do well in an event, you need to expect to play vs it at the top tables)
-) Grindy, long matches even for Sneak

These things mean that, assuming we want to do well in an event, we should build with Miracles firmly in mind. Now, as you've mentioned, there is a dichotomy between Miracles and much of the rest of the format -- you'll run into Jund, Shardless, etc now and then, sure, but generally speaking the format is Miracles (slow) vs everything else (fast), in a strictly speed sense. One of the best ways to beat Miracles is to preboard for them. If you can secure game 1, you're usually looking at, at worst, a draw on the round. It is very hard for them to fight through us in general (as, to be fair, it is for us to fight through them) -- especially if you have adequate answers to Jace TMS, which is one reason I favor the 2x To the Slaughter in the board over other options like Diabolic Edict or Pithing Needle (Needle is too easily Counterbalanced, Wear//Teared, Council's Judgmented, etc). Kill the fucker and be done with it. Anyway, both decks have trouble fighting through the other, which means games take a while. Fast wins /can/ happen on either side, but it's unlikely. If we win game 1 in 20 minutes (which is actually a bit fast for the matchup), then that means Miracles has to win two games in 15 minutes each, including shuffling, sideboarding, etc.

This makes playing for game 1 as best we can a viable strategy, however, we don't want to go overboard on it. Our sideboard for Miracles is extensive just because of the raw number of bad cards we have vs them (4 Vet 4 Therapy). If we run too many "anti miracles" cards maindeck, we unbalance the deck vs the faster rest of the metagame because we STILL need to have those 8 cards in the board for Miracles no matter what else we do. This means we need to run 2-3 cards that synergize with the deck's gameplan, that aren't actively bad in most situations, and that are the best of the best at what they do.

Primeval Titan is the best for this, by far. At worst, Primeval's failcase is that he is a 6/6 trample who can't be Abrupt Decayed, who gives you +2 virtual card advantage by pulling two lands from your deck. Even if he never manages to swing, he's still a flat +2. At his best, he gets to assemble Two Towers on comes-into-play and then swing afterward, which gives you +4 vca and an engine. Primeval is Zenithable (x=6 means cmc=7, immune to counterbalance), plays well with recursion (in a long game he turns your deck into straight gas), and powers up Emrakul (gets you closer to hardcast, which almost certainly WILL kill Miracles). He's also a card draw engine with Nissa, who we've started to move maindeck as the other primary preboard card.

This comes at the cost of 1 deck slot. He has all of these synergies, with 1 slot. The number of single, solitary cards that have that high of a % impact on a given matchup is very, very low, and I think that Primeval is very important to Sneak because of that. Yeah, he's kinda junky in most other matchups, and he's going to get sideboarded out a lot. But when you need him, you really need him, and if you intend on doing well in tournaments, you have to prepare for and assume that you will need him.

Hope that helps.

Heavily agree with all of this. Primeval Titan is super gross, and definitely a solid spot in my list. He's not going anywhere anytime soon (except into the face of Miracles players).

[Echelon]

Are there more interactions that people could explain and then could be added to the main page? I am new to legacy and this is the deck I am having a lot of fun playing. I started with JUNK fit but am playing an earlier iteration of Navsi's sneak list and really love it. I picked up magic last spring so I have a lot to learn but even played sub-optimally, this list seems to have a ton of power.

So anyhow, an example of interactions I am ignorant of: I hear people here talk about how broke the Volrath's Stronghold + Phyrexian Tower combination is... but no one ever really describes what those broken things are. I can see how recurring Veteran Explorer would be great... but what else?

Thank you everyone for working on this deck and "showing your work", I always feel like I learn a lot when I visit this thread.

There are. Keep an eye on this thread the coming days, I'll highlight a bunch of those & the rest of the board can evaluate if they'd want my ramblings in the primer.

[truthfulcake]

Are there more interactions that people could explain and then could be added to the main page? I am new to legacy and this is the deck I am having a lot of fun playing. I started with JUNK fit but am playing an earlier iteration of Navsi's sneak list and really love it. I picked up magic last spring so I have a lot to learn but even played sub-optimally, this list seems to have a ton of power.

So anyhow, an example of interactions I am ignorant of: I hear people here talk about how broke the Volrath's Stronghold + Phyrexian Tower combination is... but no one ever really describes what those broken things are. I can see how recurring Veteran Explorer would be great... but what else?

Thank you everyone for working on this deck and "showing your work", I always feel like I learn a lot when I visit this thread.

The biggest interaction with Stronghold and Tower is that you can put a sneak attack threat back on top of your threat again and again to beat your opponent to death. If you have a threat that threatens to walk away with the game (like Meren, a Titan or Thragtusk), you can just keep recurring it until your opponent either runs out of answers or you win the game (Or lose to a combo). Doesn't work with Emrakul though, since he'll just shuffle himself away unfortunately.

You can also use Tower to dodge exile effects like Swords. If you're recurring a Thragtusk every turn, no fair deck can reasonably handle you gaining 5 life and a 3/3 beast every turn.

[pettdan]

You can also use Tower to dodge exile effects like Swords. If you're recurring a Thragtusk every turn, no fair deck can reasonably handle you gaining 5 life and a 3/3 beast every turn.

I actually lost a game vs Miracles with an active Jace using that strategy so be aware it isn't necessarily always enough.

[truthfulcake]

I actually lost a game vs Miracles with an active Jace using that strategy so be aware it isn't necessarily always enough.

Im actually curious how that lost you it. I'd guess it wasn't a jace ultimate and lock you with counterbalance (What 5 drops does Miracles even run...), because even after jace ulty so you could still theoretically put Thrag or any creature even on top of your library every turn so you don't deck yourself. Mentor beat down for the win?

[volrathxp]

Stronghold/Tower is pretty absurd vs Miracles, because you use it to dodge their removal and recur giant threats. I find this combination is even better in Sneak Fit because you can land a Sneak Attack to get around Counterbalance.

@truthfulcake: Force of Will.

[truthfulcake]

Stronghold/Tower is pretty absurd vs Miracles, because you use it to dodge their removal and recur giant threats. I find this combination is even better in Sneak Fit because you can land a Sneak Attack to get around Counterbalance.

@truthfulcake: Force of Will.

Oh, der, of course. That'll do it. I keep forgetting Force of Will has a manacost...

[pettdan]

Im actually curious how that lost you it. I'd guess it wasn't a jace ultimate and lock you with counterbalance (What 5 drops does Miracles even run...), because even after jace ulty so you could still theoretically put Thrag or any creature even on top of your library every turn so you don't deck yourself. Mentor beat down for the win?

I think this may have been during spring 2015 so it's a bit vague to me, but the opponent could use the Jace brainstorming to draw into answers for Thragtusk and the token also occasionaly bouncing the token with Jace. And I guess Terminus for a Thragtusk on board gets rid of the token if you sacrifice Tusk to Phyrexian Tower before the Terminus resolves, that allows the Miracles player to draw more cards than you for a turn and potentially build up a board state that allows them to race you (?), Clique the Tusk during your draw step or just Entreat/Mentor away. I think it may have been an Entreat ending that game..

[Echelon]

I'm going to go out and say that Nissa is better than Sigarda if you can only fit in one.

Blasphemy!

This is kind of what I was thinking. I could replace Sigarda with Nissa, and then replace Meren with Thrun for a similar card that's hard to interact with.

Blasp...hemy..?

@emaugust: Reread your post, saw your question was mainly about Sneak Fit. I'm mainly a Junk Fit guy, so there's no need for me to divulge.