All B/R update speculation.

[tescrin]

So, , win the game? Sign me up.

Still worse than 2U (Sneakshow) win the game ;)
Or UB (Reanimator) win the game.

May or may not have anything to do with the U in that. (not suggesting they unban it)

[ScottW]

This has been discussed to death but I think SDT will be banned as a result of commentators complaining about it at EW Columbus and the Miracles player in the finals. Add to this the recent GP and the case seems strong enough for WotC. I'd be rather disappointed as I feel like its peripheral inclusion in Legacy is too important.

[Dice_Box]

I only watched the Vintage portion of EW so far. (Loved Reid's and Rich's decks.) What happened?

[Julian23]

A Miracles player took many and often long SDT activations and also messed up a couple of things mechanically every now and then. Both commentators as well as his opponents grew quite frustrated over the course of the Top8.

He later showed up here and apologized for playing in a somewhat messy way. Nothing against him; but the card.

[Fox]

This has been discussed to death but I think SDT will be banned as a result of commentators complaining about it at EW Columbus and the Miracles player in the finals. Add to this the recent GP and the case seems strong enough for WotC. I'd be rather disappointed as I feel like its peripheral inclusion in Legacy is too important.

There is the card SDT, and then there is the card that incentivizes people to activate it multiple times between draw steps (Counterbalance). This SDT slow-play problem is fairly specific to miracles; other grindy decks might employ it, but they aren't known for having especially good matchups vs combo, combo-control, nor mana denial (R/G lands, Delver).
Complete the thought experiment with CB hypothetically banned: how does the meta shift, and how exactly is SDT a problem card there?

[ScottW]

Complete the thought experiment with CB hypothetically banned: how does the meta shift, and how exactly is SDT a problem card there?

I think neither should be banned and also think commentators, and high profile players should not promote a ban as it's not always going to be representative of the community. For commentators to even mention a card being suitable for a ban is even more troublesome because they're likely more detached from the format than the format specific community.

[Dice_Box]

I think neither should be banned and also think commentators, and high profile players should not promote a ban as it's not always going to be representative of the community. For commentators to even mention a card being suitable for a ban is even more troublesome because they're likely more detached from the format than the format specific community.

Colour commentry will always include peoples options. Bans have been spoke about before, the VSL in my view got two Shops cards banned when only one was needed. But thems the breaks when you have a pulpit.

[CutthroatCasual]

He later showed up here and apologized for playing in a somewhat messy way. Nothing against him; but the card.

So it's fault for being a slow pilot, but it's not his fault for being a slow pilot? Which one are you trying to say? Because if it's the card's fault then all Miracles players would be that slow.

[btm10]

Complete the thought experiment with CB hypothetically banned: how does the meta shift, and how exactly is SDT a problem card there?

I'll indulge this because it's interesting, but I'll state my priors first:

1. Miracles is too good relative to the rest of the format. Rich Shay described it as "the only Tier Zero deck in the format" at Eternal Weekend, and he was right. That being said, it's better contained now than it was prior to Eldrazi and the D&T upgrades.

2. The most elegant solution to this problem is simply to ban Entreat the Angels. Taking away Miracles' combo-kill option and forcing it to win with Mentor or Jace (or any other conventional win condition) takes away its absolute inevitability against other long-game decks.

On to Counterbalance:

I think the meta reequilibrates around some Delver deck, D&T, Shardless, and Eldrazi. My guess would be that a BUG Delver list ultimately comes out on top, but 4 color with TNN amd Angler also seems plausible. I don't think a draw-go control deck can survive without Counterbalance in a world where Shardless and combo both get to exist. I guess Elves might show up again?

[Stuart]

Add to this the recent GP

I hadn't seen that top 8 yet . . . holy shit. Japan's supposed to be the forefront of interesting Legacy, and that's their top 8? At least 2 decks weren't on Brainstorm, though, so we're all good.

[Dice_Box]

3 Miracles decks in the Top 8 is not exactly uncommon. I doubt this will be a catalyst for change.

[tescrin]

I think the main reasons I'd be pro-banning a miracles piece:
* Like everyone - I hate the deck. I would play against SneakShow and Chalice decks all day in it's place. It's that obnoxious.

* But better argument - The WotC hostage release program: I may get my Mind Twist finally :D

I don't care if it's Top, CB, or Terminus (although I think I'd rather it be the CB so people don't feel obligated to be in BG all the time; including myself) but getting a card in return while getting rid of the most oppressive (and slowest game) in legacy.

Marit Lage me all day while loaming me out; at least then when you have 0-lands you can concede knowing that you didn't actually have an out. Smash my Reality; at least I can play midrange against that. Omni an Emmy after using a pyroclasm at least then I can get a drink.

Seriously. I can understand that other players (like myself when I was new) can also take a long time; but going to 50 minutes every round because 45 people like looking at the top 3 cards of their deck too often is annoying. Wondering if 1 of your 3 remaining decays will come up so you can close the game is annoying.

It's not a fantastic argument, but I want a card unbanned lol. That said, I think Mind Twist would be unusually good against Miracles unfortunately. Between X cost and efficient CA you could swing the game on a dime potentially, powering it with useless wastelands to boot.

EDIT: An aside. I think it also just makes legacy better. What makes legacy attractive is the power level. While Miracles is powerful it has no wow factor. Losing T2 to a combo feels like legacy. Being killed T4 by Delver Wasteland Daze Force feels like Legacy because you were pinned to the ground and couldn't do anything; but you could've if the deck weren't so dang fast. Being stormed out feels mildly interesting because their decisions can lose them the game.

Staring a boardstate of lands on one side, and lands countertop on the other is the least interesting, and probably the most likely boardstate to see in legacy (due to the amount of time that is occurring where the other games are already over.) That doesn't attract people to the game. If it were for some reason MUD that was the prison deck killing everything; at least they'd win in a reasonable time frame while you have no permanents under a smokestack.

Miracles makes people leave the format. Attracts no one to the format. Is not fun for either player afaict.
It's just effective. Some argue to effective; which while that "should" be the only factor; I don't think it is. Our format could just die under the weight of the least interesting deck in history. We can just lose card value and time sinking into a boring experience while each player waits for the inevitable. I actually know people at this point who just scoop to miracles because they'd rather take the loss and BS with people than take even a 50 50 shot; of which they won't have any fun even if they win.

If nothing else, there could be an argument of "well maybe I'd still like to play legacy while there are players who will play it" rather than "the deck is too OP."

I mean, I get it. I lost to sneakshow a lot when I new, and I whined a bit. But then I was able to beat it, and the intensity of the game went up. Even when you beat miracles, it's the least satisfying win ever.

[CptHaddock]

2. The most elegant solution to this problem is simply to ban Entreat the Angels. Taking away Miracles' combo-kill option and forcing it to win with Mentor or Jace (or any other conventional win condition) takes away its absolute inevitability against other long-game decks.

I stay out of this thread normally but this just isn't a true statement.

[iatee]

Miracles beats people quickly all the time, they just don't realize it and don't like to scoop. If you decide to play a deck that can't beat Countertop, then Miracles has turn 2 kills.

Anyway, Miracles was not even the most prevalent deck in the tournament d2 at the last GP, Eldrazi was. Eldrazi is far more likely to eventually kill legacy than Miracles is - it's currently turning it into just another format where casual players ramp out huge creatures and just need to remember to not forget to attack.

Chalice is obviously the card that should be banned. Eldrazi being the most popular deck in legacy is really sad, and it's probably going to stay that way until Chalice is gone.

[Lemnear]

A Miracles player took many and often long SDT activations and also messed up a couple of things mechanically every now and then. Both commentators as well as his opponents grew quite frustrated over the course of the Top8.

Thats how you top8! "Sloppy" play with a few advantages gained here and there, paired with stalling opponents right into Frustration or out of the game

[Barook]

Miracles beats people quickly all the time, they just don't realize it and don't like to scoop. If you decide to play a deck that can't beat Countertop, then Miracles has turn 2 kills.

Anyway, Miracles was not even the most prevalent deck in the tournament d2 at the last GP, Eldrazi was. Eldrazi is far more likely to eventually kill legacy than Miracles is - it's currently turning it into just another format where casual players ramp out huge creatures and just need to remember to not forget to attack.

Chalice is obviously the card that should be banned. Eldrazi being the most popular deck in legacy is really sad, and it's probably going to stay that way until Chalice is gone.

If Eldrazi was so prelevant, then look at all those Eldrazi decks in the Top 8 - oh, wait...

Also, where can I look at the Day 2 data? All I can find on Wizards' abyssal joke of a website is decklists up to #64.

[iatee]

The fact that Eldrazi players couldn't convert their day 1 dominance into day 2 dominance probably says more about the players than the deck. If the Miracles players and Eldrazi players switched decks, I would bet on there being 3 Eldrazi in the t8.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/c...own-2016-11-27

Eldrazi 99 13.2%
Miracles 78 10.4%
Shardless Sultai 61 8.1%
Death and Taxes 55 7.3%
Grixis Delver 35 4.6%
Omni-Tell 35 4.6%
Infect 29 3.8%
Blue-Red Delver 27 3.6%
Storm / ANT 26 3.4%
Lands 24 3.2%
Burn 23 3.0%
Tin Fins 22 2.9%
4-Color Delver 21 2.8%
Sultai Delver 20 2.6%
Reanimator 20 2.6%
Jund 16
Esper Deathblade 15
Merfolk 13
Dredge 12
Elves 12
Sneak and Show 10
Maverick 9
MUD 6
Esper Stoneblade 6
Charbelcher 5
Dark Depths 5
Dragon Stompy 5
Temur Delver 5
Aluren 4
Canadian Threshold 4
Food Chain 3
Painter's Servant 3
Others 41
Total 749

[Barook]

Thanks for the data:

So Miracles did:

Place 3/8 decks in the Top 8 (37.5%)
Place 7/32 decks in the Top 32 (21.9%)
Place 13/64 decks in the Top 64 (20.3%)

All while being 10.4% of the field. It just continues the past trend that Miracles always overperforms at events that big. Sure, good players are on Miracles, but that still doesn't excuse the performace.

Joe Lossett also lost R10 to the metro transit system, going 12-3 in the end due to that. If it wasn't for that, we would probably look at another Top 8 with 50% Miracles.

Miracles makes people leave the format.

This. I still care about Magic and Legacy, and but as long as Miracles stays unchanged in the format, I can't bring myself to play it anymore.

[iatee]

I'm pretty sure your strategy of "Boycott legacy until Wizards bans Top" won't work because people giving up on legacy probably solves more issues for them than it creates. Anyway, when the finals of a GP includes this hand:



and Miracles wasn't even the most played deck, it's really hard to imagine Wizards deciding that Sensei's Diving Top is the real problem with the format.

[Barook]

I'm pretty sure your strategy of "Boycott legacy until Wizards bans Top" won't work because people giving up on legacy probably solves more issues for them than it creates.

It's only good for them if said people spend money on other formats instead. If they don't, they just lose customers.