[Primer] Elves!

[Capt4in]

Against dredge just make lots of mana and zenith for an ooze.

There's no way I'd want to play all that extra grave hate.

Yeah, I have always found dredge to be one of our better matchups. Unless they have a super-fast iona we are just faster and make a lethal board better. If you are really having problems or seeing it a lot, I would just maindeck ooze rather than devoting more slots to it. I don't think i have dropped a match to dredge with elves since the printing of DRS (but i often maindeck my ooze).

[catmint]

@Lemnear

Depends on what you interpret as "being solved". Some years back i played canadian a lot and tinkered about 2-3 meta slots in the SB and whether i play 5 or 6 removal spells Everyone played the same list more or less for a long time..

If i look at dredge with LED i guess there are some differences( not an expert) but it seems there is a common understanding of an optimal config.

Don't know what changed in reanimator since Griselbrand

Not sure if my examples are the best but to me solved is a state where a decks optimal configuration and strategy is mature, tested and proven and hence adopted by a majority. Since i play elves ( which was my first legacy deck) elves was in mostly in such a state and when new metas emerge and cards get printed the optimal configuration is disrupted and needs to be figured out again.

so in a way...of course elves is solved but as Prdgychild pointed out there are tradeoffs if you cut one drops for better top decks...you lose something on one end and get something in return. I don't think nissa has a lot to do with that... there are so many powerful cards at cmc 3-5 which you can throw in the ring. But the main question is what is optimal in the current meta and which configuration offers the best power/consistency balance.

that needs to be solved imo and it's a different state compared to the deciding whether to play choke or null rod. ,And the 2 different versions... don't see them clearly. there seems to be a lot mixing them up.

[Lemnear]

Of course stuff gets mixed up like in the storm supertype. Some play Preordains, others more storm spells, a third uses the slots for Dark Petition and the next is mixing it. It still doesnt affect the core of the deck and its the same with elves.

We will never reach a state to lean back and say "thats it. No more tinkering needed for the next year" as new stuff gets printed every 3 months and the metagame is moving constantly. The "best" configuration also varies depending on the type of event and the country you play. A GP in Japan has a whole different metagame structure like one in the US and you have to consider that for your flex slots and sideboard, but that has zero influence on the core decks "solved" state, at least as I Interpret the term.

If we talk about Nissa in terms of metagame, we have to distance us from looking just at Miracles and only under the assumption that the card can be casted and resolves. We cannot meassure the relevance of the card that way, ignoring of how it interacts with Mentor, a board wiped from elves (5cc while the deck runs cradles and Caverns) or a FoW flipped for Counterbalance. We also have to look at how it performs against Eldrazi or Grixis Delver in the current metagame and thats the point I am not sure the card ends up being more than a "green Tezzert for Lands"

[Prdgychild]

[QUOTE=catmint;980433]@Lemnear

" there are so many powerful cards at cmc 3-5 which you can throw in the ring." What 5 mana spell do you think has the potential to be better than Nissa? Remember she enables 2 turn kills, she regrowths, she is "free" with a cradle out and a board, she is a PW. I believe she may be the best 5 drop for elves ever. Chaos is sometimes underwhelming/slow and NO is sometimes to "risky". As such, Nissa fills a new interesting role. I would not lump Nissa with anything that has existed so far. Maybe at 4 mana we could try Garruk but at 5.... Not to include Julian's argument regarding the miracles player cannot cast JTMS without us being able to cast Nissa and run him over. Also, with cradle, she is nearly free is not free!

[Lemnear]

What 5 mana spell do you think has the potential to be better than Nissa? Remember she enables 2 turn kills, she regrowths, she is "free" with a cradle out and a board, she is a PW.

This argument is absolute bullshit. I am not even willing to point it out because its so obvious

I believe she may be the best 5 drop for elves ever.

Another argument saying nothing. You could have said "Regal Force may be the best 7 drop for elves ever". Mind, that we still dont run Regal Force.

chaos is sometimes underwhelming/slow and NO is sometimes to "risky". As such, Nissa fills a new interesting role. I would not lump Nissa with anything that has existed so far. Maybe at 4 mana we could try Garruk but at 5.... Not to include Julian's argument regarding the miracles player cannot cast JTMS without us being able to cast Nissa and run him over. Also, with cradle, she is nearly free is not free!

If you have the board to actually cast her, you could Hoof your opponent instead as well if Terminus isnt your main argument.

I have no idea why you seriously argue with Jace dropped onto a field with Elves, because WITHOUT a bunch of Elves, you are unable to cast the 5cc Nissa in most cases anyways. So what do you do against a Terminus in your turn, followed up by Jace if you sit on 1-2 lands plus a cradle?

[Prdgychild]

This argument is absolute bullshit. I am not even willing to point it out because its so obvious



Another argument saying nothing. You could have said "Regal Force may be the best 7 drop for elves ever". Mind, that we still dont run Regal Force.



If you have the board to actually cast her, you could Hoof your opponent instead as well if Terminus isnt your main argument.

I have no idea why you seriously argue with Jace dropped onto a field with Elves, because WITHOUT a bunch of Elves, you are unable to cast the 5cc Nissa in most cases anyways. So what do you do against a Terminus in your turn, followed up by Jace if you sit on 1-2 lands plus a cradle?

How is this BS? Top 8 2500 tourney = BS....

No one said anything about a 7 drop or a creature.

Haste 5/5 defeats 4 loyalty counters. 5-4= -1. PW die if the loyalty counters reach 0.

I am trying to make sense of the Nissa top 8 and your response not only ignores that but begins swearing on an internet forum about cards.....

[catmint]

In the interest of not discouraging people from posting their thoughts I suggest we stay respectful and don't "trahs" comments which some might consider not optimally reasoned.

I think the point was Nissa might be good. :)
I suggest we spend more time testing and post actual conclusions/experiences instead of theoretical statements.

Edit: I actually have some experience on the question of Terminus into Jace. It came up 3 times. Twice i had 5 lands because that is usually a late game thing. Once Nissa won the game, once she was countered and once I had only 4 mana. However the key is that Garruk does not win vs. Jace in that scenario so it does not really matter imo.

[Lemnear]

In the interest of not discouraging people from posting their thoughts I suggest we stay respectful and don't "trahs" comments which some might consider not optimally reasoned.

I think the point was Nissa might be good. :)
I suggest we spend more time testing and post actual conclusions/experiences instead of theoretical statements.

Thats is all fair. I have a problem if people try to make a point solely by pointing to the card text (and no context) or make ridiculous claims like the "enabling" T2 kill.

[Prdgychild]

Thats is all fair. I have a problem if people try to make a point solely by pointing to the card text (and no context) or make ridiculous claims like the "enabling" T2 kill.

It does enable a turn 2 kill. See Julains twitter page. 42/42 gaeas cradle turn 2 after a terminus lol

[Prdgychild]

In the interest of not discouraging people from posting their thoughts I suggest we stay respectful and don't "trahs" comments which some might consider not optimally reasoned.

I think the point was Nissa might be good. :)
I suggest we spend more time testing and post actual conclusions/experiences instead of theoretical statements.

Edit: I actually have some experience on the question of Terminus into Jace. It came up 3 times. Twice i had 5 lands because that is usually a late game thing. Once Nissa won the game, once she was countered and once I had only 4 mana. However the key is that Garruk does not win vs. Jace in that scenario so it does not really matter imo.

Thanks for the input catmint, when playing miracles i also find myelf with 5 mana through lands quite often as well and so casting nissa seems like a very real possibility most of those games. Also, I do not believe garruk to have a place in combo/NO elves but maybe some rouge variant.:confused

[Lemnear]

It does enable a turn 2 kill. See Julains twitter page. 42/42 gaeas cradle turn 2 after a terminus lol

Because, "lets dont mind the 3 DRS, 3 Glimpse, 2 Symbiotes and 3 Nettles which did the whole combo, but point to the random 5-mana untap effect". Interresting interpretation of the word "enable" dood.

[Prdgychild]

Just played some MTGO with Jan's list and lost two games due to drawing lands when a 1/1 elf would have won me the game. Going to test Nissa with 17 lands for the next week or so.

[Echelon]

I've done T2 kills without Cradles (or Nissa). 7 dudes on the field (of which 1 can attack) is enough. Or >=15 dudes if you just want to ride Craterhoof to the finishline.

All you need is a heap of good luck on a T2 Glimpse. And a first turn that starts with good old Forest into Llanowar Elves. After that you just go Glimpse, Quirion Ranger, Heritage Druid, another 1-drop Elf (after which you've already drawn 3 new cards) and be the luckiest bastard in the room for the next 20 or so draws. Works best around Christmas time, I might add.

[dte]

Lemnear is right about not enabling T2 prdgychild. If you want a card that does, have a look at crop rotation.

I have trouble to see how Nissa is much better than garruck v1. One mana cheaper, untap two lands, threaten a next turn win against many decks, drop 3/3s that are good vs eldrazi and miracle. I played a bit with one MD, it was not disappointing. I will try Nissa in its spot and try to remember to compare them.

[.Ix]

The creature Nissa makes is a 5/5. In its first turn, Nissa can deal 5, then 10, then another 10 for the kill, assuming the opponent is still at 20. It's a three turn clock post-sweeper that doesn't require other elves. I think that's a significant advantage over Garruk Wildspeaker. I have to admit, I thought it was awful when it was first suggested, but after goldfishing with it a bit, I believe it's at least decent.

[GiveMeYourOil]

The creature Nissa makes is a 5/5. In its first turn, Nissa can deal 5, then 10, then another 10 for the kill, assuming the opponent is still at 20. It's a three turn clock post-sweeper that doesn't require other elves. I think that's a significant advantage over Garruk Wildspeaker. I have to admit, I thought it was awful when it was first suggested, but after goldfishing with it a bit, I believe it's at least decent.

They only become creatures until your next turn, So its 5 Damage a turn from her.

[.Ix]

Really? Well, then. Reading is tech, I guess.

[catmint]

I have trouble to see how Nissa is much better than garruck v1. One mana cheaper, untap two lands, threaten a next turn win against many decks, drop 3/3s that are good vs eldrazi and miracle. I played a bit with one MD, it was not disappointing. I will try Nissa in its spot and try to remember to compare them.

Garruk v1 does not solve the problems we face imo.
1) it does not kill jace
2) it does not provide a different way of winning other then "have many creatures" - if we do have that than there are plenty ways to win.

Nissa needs just lands to win and the nissa ultimate is nothing to sneeze at.
Fetchland = draw 2
Every land (dead draw) cycles
Quirion is awesome

[skyout]

What does one sideboard versus the lands matchup? I'm going to an event this weekend where I expect a lot of lands and I can't decide if bring more surgical extractions, elderscale wurm, etc.

[Prdgychild]

What does one sideboard versus the lands matchup? I'm going to an event this weekend where I expect a lot of lands and I can't decide if bring more surgical extractions, elderscale wurm, etc.

If there are lots of land decks bring a deck that plays lotus petals. Or get very timely surgicals and maybe crop/karakas package? city of solitutde? pre-board elves deck and hope to run into lands may help.