[Primer] Elves!

[Prdgychild]

I have about 20 or so games vs miracles with leovold (also 2 caverns), and there have only been a handful of occasions where WRP wouldn't have been better. WRP is also gas against Eldrazi, and although I haven't tested him against anything running wasteland WRP's probably stronger in those matchups- both due to his casting cost and that he survives lightning bolt. He's certainly a powerful card, but I don't think leovold makes the cut in a 3-4 NO build.

How about chaos?

[jjkbb2005]

So I actually came to a different conclusion than both Prdgychild and abombdiggity; I have found Levold to be nice addition in many matchups. *(His ability to allows us to draw a card on a Jace uptick was a nice bonus that I forgot about) Having access to a faux-hatebear in elves has been especially useful and creates pressure on our opponents to deal with him. Also being able to splash blue allows us to access to cards like Flusterstorm and Swan Song which I think at this time in the meta can be an absolute blowout. While he may not be worth the blue splash for some of you I feel like he creates another additional option for how Elves can be built (which I feel is desperately needed).

His weaknesses: not being particulary powerful against Eldrazi/non-blue decks (besides Elves), being clunky in regards to mana cost, fragile to removal.

Strengths: great against blue decks, creates a reason splash U, gives us outs to ANT/Storm if you are able to cast him in time

[Atikin]

So I actually came to a different conclusion than both Prdgychild and abombdiggity; I have found Levold to be nice addition in many matchups. *(His ability to allows us to draw a card on a Jace uptick was a nice bonus that I forgot about) Having access to a faux-hatebear in elves has been especially useful and creates pressure on our opponents to deal with him. Also being able to splash blue allows us to access to cards like Flusterstorm and Swan Song which I think at this time in the meta can be an absolute blowout. While he may not be worth the blue splash for some of you I feel like he creates another additional option for how Elves can be built (which I feel is desperately needed).

His weaknesses: not being particulary powerful against Eldrazi/non-blue decks (besides Elves), being clunky in regards to mana cost, fragile to removal.

Strengths: great against blue decks, creates a reason splash U, gives us outs to ANT/Storm if you are able to cast him in time

Can't speak to the strength of leovold as I haven't tested him but having to splash blue is definitely a minus and not a pro.

[catmint]

Concerning Leovold I am a bit on the fence at the moment.

At the beginning I was super excited and played with him a bit before I came to the conclusion that he does not fit into combo elves. On one hand that was due to not wanting to hurt the mana, but mostly because I undervalued GSZ bullets overall as I felt visionary/symbiote is enough gas and GSZ for one gives you a fair chance to GSZ/Draw the other part.

However lately I looked a lot at game states where my primary game plan was disrupted and I had a GSZ and 3-4 mana. I felt that additional gas is necessary (I also played a while with no ooze) so now I more or less just copied the top8 Chiba list which has a lot of combo and a lot of gas with ooze, leovold and the 2 Nissa and it felt good so far.

I cannot judge yet whether Leovold is optimal and how the mana should look like (I fell in love with 2 caverns).

What I like most about him is the ability to attack against 1/2 creatures, that he breaks the mirror, that people don't yet realize that you also get to draw a card if they play thoughtseize and that even if miracles has Karakas you at least draw a card and can play him again. His effect on blue decks is of course super strong.

[MegaManR]

I had a pretty awesome test session this weekend with the GP Top 8 List (3 Windswept Heaths and 3 Wooded Foothills as the 6 fetches, though). Invited friends over to play 8 hours of Legacy.

Played several games against Nic Fit and won. No issues. I think we played 3 or 4 games and he won 1 with a bunch of removal and Siege Rhino and other such nonsense.

Played 3 games against Shardless BUG and won 2-0. Played a 3rd game just for fun and got back to back hymn'd. Definitely didn't win that one.

Niether game had Nissa or Leovold to see how it played. Just good Natural Order Hoof wins and a Glimpse chain or two. I think Scavenging Ooze did lots of work, too. Loved seeing it.

Played 2 games against Burn and Lost 0-2. I'm still salty about it, though he sequenced pretty well. Turn 2 Eidolon against hands that I kept because of good Glimpse Hands. I went for it in game 2 because I had no other outs and got myself down to 4 life from Eidolon hits glimpse chaining and had the win in hand. Nope. Fireblast. *sigh*

What you've all been waiting for. *Ahem*
Played 5 games against Miracles.

First game I got super lucky baiting out a Force with a Glimpse and a board of only 2-3 Elves, but no other Elves in my hand. Hahaha. Natural Order follow-up. Hoof. Win.

Second game I managed to play right into his Terminus like an idiot. Was beating him down for 4 a turn and decided to go for it. Got greedy. I was excited about my previous win. It was tough from there on out and he swarmed me with Angels.

Third game I get early beats in and he gets a Terminus after several turns of pondering and spinning top. Follow up with a Nissa +1 on Cradle and it gets sent Plowing. Fuck. This is what we Feared. However, I make a play that I think is sort of weird, but I think it helped win me the game. He only had a top out, but I set him back by casting Rec Sage on it and making him put the top back on top with a fetchland out. I get Wirewood Symbiote out. He doesn't have Counterbalance, game progresses with some Elves beating his face, then he has 2 tops and a Mentor out. His plan is to start going aggro apparently and building a wall to protect himself from my ground beats. Fuck that noise. I'm the aggro deck. Ultimate Nissa, cast some more elves. Hit some land drops. Keep filling my hand with more elves. Land a Leovold. It was a struggle on mana, even with DrS, Cavern, Bayou and Tropical island in the Deck (which I didn't have out, I think just a Bayou and Birchlore and Deathrite. Had to be tricky to get it with double elves and untap tricks to make the mana. Leovold did his job, though, preventing him from doing top shenanigans on his turn and building an army. Soon Next turn Hardcast Hoof. I win.

Fourth game I actually had Leovold and Progenitus stranded in my hand and a Nissa countered, so it was rough. He got Top and CB lock going pretty early. Nothing of mine resolved, even trying to Natural Order for Rec Sage. Rough game.

Fifth game (yes, I'm a glutton for punishment - I played against Miracles for 2 hours) - don't remember, but I think I lost.
If it was a tournament match, though - out of the first 3 games, I would have won , but the last 2 games were no good .

Played 2 games against ANT without sideboard just for practice. Lost to turn 2 kills both times. He had some sick lines with Rain of Filth and Lotus Petals and Rituals into Rituals into Tutor into Tutor into Tutor into Tendrils. nothing I can do about it if he has the Nuts.

Played 2-3 games against Death and Taxes with their new toys. Still a breeze. Got surprised a couple times by Containment Priest and active Jittes and losing out on some cards. Still able to get it with Wirewood Symbiote and Reclamation Sage and somehow getting rid of Containment Priest in the second game. I'd still like to test against them more.

TL;DR - Tested against Miracles with GP Top 8 List. Nissa and Leovold helped me win in 1 game. Did nothing in another game. Didn't see them in 3 other games. Reclamation Sage was MVP, especially 2nd one out of sideboard. Think Lemnear was onto something with more than just 1 Rec Sage (especially in other matchups). Still really like Nissa. Want to test more. Leovold was a struggle to cast, but still think he's potentially awesome.

Didn't test against Eldrazi or Grixis. Those are next up. I definitely (will) miss Wren's Run Packmaster. Thought I would miss Sylvan Library, but with better Glimpse chains and potentially getting Nissa's Ultimate Emblem pretty easily (which happened against Miracles and was awesome), I'm not too worried. Hope this post was helpful, or at least fun to read.

[MegaManR]

Concerning Leovold...

What I like most about him is the ability to attack against 1/2 creatures, that he breaks the mirror, that people don't yet realize that you also get to draw a card if they play thoughtseize and that even if miracles has Karakas you at least draw a card and can play him again. His effect on blue decks is of course super strong.

I really enjoyed his ability to get an extra draw from ANYTHING that targets. Planeswalker abilities, discard spells, removal he just replaces himself, being targeted from Rishadan Port or Wasteland.

[Lemnear]

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Just wanna say, that Sage also kills Eidolon, Jitte, Vial and more in the matchups you described

[abombdiggity]

So I actually came to a different conclusion than both Prdgychild and abombdiggity; I have found Levold to be nice addition in many matchups. *(His ability to allows us to draw a card on a Jace uptick was a nice bonus that I forgot about) Having access to a faux-hatebear in elves has been especially useful and creates pressure on our opponents to deal with him. Also being able to splash blue allows us to access to cards like Flusterstorm and Swan Song which I think at this time in the meta can be an absolute blowout. While he may not be worth the blue splash for some of you I feel like he creates another additional option for how Elves can be built (which I feel is desperately needed)

I tried the blue splash pre leovold for some sideboard options and an edric, and it was pretty fun, although weaker than Julian's chaos builds. I would not be surprised if there's a BUG variant that has a positive Miracles matchup with the SB options and flexibility that a blue splash offers.

[MegaManR]

Just wanna say, that Sage also kills Eidolon, Jitte, Vial and more in the matchups you described

Yup. I feel like a damn fool with that Eidolon. I should've been more patient in that Burn match. Either way, Reclamation Sage was definitely the MVP of the night, and would've even been more so if I saw that line to get rid of Eidolon (though I don't think I had him in my hand nor a NO nor GSZ in that game where I was trying to Glimpse chain and win through it.)

[jjkbb2005]

I tried the blue splash pre leovold for some sideboard options and an edric, and it was pretty fun, although weaker than Julian's chaos builds. I would not be surprised if there's a BUG variant that has a positive Miracles matchup with the SB options and flexibility that a blue splash offers.

I am just such a fan of being able to play Flusterstorm because it leads to such blowouts when you counter a Terminus/Entreat/Show n' Tell/Exhume . I think it's really about the surprise factor and adding another dimension to Elves but I can understand other people's apprehension to not try the splash.

With Leovold I also think that opponents are not going to be necessarily familiar with playing against the card and will often mistakenly draw you an extra card or two/Brainstorm for 0 when they didn't intend to. Obviously this won't be the case as you reach the later rounds but will be a definite benefit early on.

[Prdgychild]

I am just such a fan of being able to play Flusterstorm because it leads to such blowouts when you counter a Terminus/Entreat/Show n' Tell/Exhume . I think it's really about the surprise factor and adding another dimension to Elves but I can understand other people's apprehension to not try the splash.

With Leovold I also think that opponents are not going to be necessarily familiar with playing against the card and will often mistakenly draw you an extra card or two/Brainstorm for 0 when they didn't intend to. Obviously this won't be the case as you reach the later rounds but will be a definite benefit early on.

When playing blue, other than leovold, what do you cut from the list?

[jjkbb2005]

When playing blue, other than leovold, what do you cut from the list?

So I play 61 cards with Leovold, if I were to cut a card it would probably be Quirion Ranger though a Nettle could also be up for consideration. Quirion Ranger plays a bigger role in 3+ color Elves and if possible I would rather not cut her. Instead of playing two Caverns I play one as I routinely found it very awkward initially to cast Leovold without the Tropical (the fetches are increasingly important with DRS IMO). In the sideboard I play one Fluster, x2 Surigical, x2 Cabal, x3 Thoughtseize, x3 Abrupt Decay, x2 Nissa, Vital Force, x1 Null Rod, allowing me one flex spot, which I haven't decided upon.

[Prdgychild]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/523322#online

Julian 5-0 with Jan's list, again. I get it that he won all 5 but i can't help still question if jitte really better than leovold and/or Nissa.

[catmint]

I am just such a fan of being able to play Flusterstorm because it leads to such blowouts when you counter a Terminus/Entreat/Show n' Tell/Exhume . I think it's really about the surprise factor and adding another dimension to Elves but I can understand other people's apprehension to not try the splash.

I actually had similar thoughts when it comes to the miracle matchup. They can be so relaxed and sure about not losing if they have top+Terminus or Kozileks Return. I think countering one of those spells could easily be the surprise win. I tried 2 Envelop and 1 Flusterstorm instead of my 3 current slots (1 Pithing Needle, 1 Null Rod, 1 Choke).

Did not test a ton, but it was not what I hoped for. My conclusions and the reason I stopped testing that approach vs. Miracles.

1) leaving blue open is difficult enough - it not being super obvious is very hard.
2) Yes - if it resolves it can do some damage, but since we rarely go for the "all-in attack" it is not as game breaking - they just need to dig for the next mass removal/entreat.
3) We cannot tick up the storm count for flusterstorm, so if the Miracle player suspects it he will wipe the board in a state where it is just a spell pierce
4) Envelop does not counter Kozileks Return

So overall with the splash not being wide spread I rejected the idea and just played with the permanent based hate, but if someone has different experiences/conclusions or tries another approach it is something I would take a look at again.

[blind]

Invasive Surgery >> Envelopp :) :)

[catmint]

haha - nice.
Need to have a PW or artifact countered first. Creatures do also not land often in the GY unfortunately against miracles. But yes - strictly better than Envelop. :)

[Arianeira]

How is Nissa from the recent GP list? Have not tried that yet seems like you can get some clunky draws with Nissa, Natural Order.

Will have to test Leovold was running the Blue splash for Swan Songs for awhile now. May switch to Invasive Surgery but Swan Song counters instants and enchantments.

If you really want to be burn and you are running a Natural Order list sideboard Elderscale Wurm. Even if the burn player kills it they have to spend too much resources to kill it that you usually win.

[Prdgychild]

So I play 61 cards with Leovold, if I were to cut a card it would probably be Quirion Ranger though a Nettle could also be up for consideration. Quirion Ranger plays a bigger role in 3+ color Elves and if possible I would rather not cut her. Instead of playing two Caverns I play one as I routinely found it very awkward initially to cast Leovold without the Tropical (the fetches are increasingly important with DRS IMO). In the sideboard I play one Fluster, x2 Surigical, x2 Cabal, x3 Thoughtseize, x3 Abrupt Decay, x2 Nissa, Vital Force, x1 Null Rod, allowing me one flex spot, which I haven't decided upon.

Shawman of the Pack vs Jitte? How do we deciede on which to run?

[jjkbb2005]

Shawman of the Pack vs Jitte? How do we deciede on which to run?

I mean that's really dependent on your local meta, etc and there is no real definite answer. I'm not nearly as high on Jitte as Julian is (though in tandem with Leovold, Jitte really puts our opponent in an awkward spot if they decide to bolt/swords our equipped creature).

*Leyline of Lifeforce was a spicy one run by Julian the other day.

@catmint
The thing is in the past there was no other reason to splash blue but to play soft counters (and maybe Edric), now with Leovold we have strong enough reason to play a Trop without our opponent being necessarily suspicious of any counters.

[catmint]

@catmint
The thing is in the past there was no other reason to splash blue but to play soft counters (and maybe Edric), now with Leovold we have strong enough reason to play a Trop without our opponent being necessarily suspicious of any counters.

Good point. Let's try it out. :)
Edric in the SB might also be something to consider btw. Attacking for a couple of points of damage against miracles is not really a threat. He would change that.