Hi guys, question from a landsplayer. Miracles usually sides in quite some cards (like 2 moons, 2 gravehate, 2 wear tear) against lands, and I presume from my experience you board out Terminus. If you don't mind confirming, do you board out the Termini? And does the fact that lands recently shifts towards postboard chalices and Trackers changed that boarding strategy?
or you can just float a Flusterstorm. but if they're smart they'll abrupt decay your top at you end step and then Cabal Therapy you for it when they go off.Originally Posted by Poron
Against Lands, I would side-out Jace and Entreat (too slow) and also counter spells, because countering Life from the Loam do just nothing, but more and more Lands decks play Crucible and/or other horrible thing like that. I would board in Graveyard-hates (Surgicals, Rest in Peace), Enchantment/Artifacts hates (Wear//Tear) and if I do have it in my side, of course Bloodmoon effect. I dont really want to side-out Terminus because of Tracker that comes into play more often than not post-side.
IT IS TWO AND A HALF MINUTES TO MIDNIGHT
Really? Chalice to shutdown your own gamble and crop rotation?
Some number of those are usually boarded out.
Lands doesn't technically need it's one mana spells (although they are pretty good) to operate.
It's a minor setback in comparison to the impact it has on Miracles, especialy pre-top. Returning to the original question, what about postboard Terminus? In or out?
Their decays are usually so taxed they can't afford to do so. But yes, if that line is open to them, they usually do this.
*Cut 2 terminus, if you expect them to be on trackers, everyone if only Ms Lage.
Against Lands, I always do:
-4 Terminus
-1 Council's Judgment
-2 Counterspell
-1 Entreat the Angels
+2 Back to Basics
+2 Wear // Tear
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Vendilion Clique
You should never, ever board out Jace versus Lands. Not only is Jace the easiest way to beat Lands, but he's difficult for Lands to deal with and having him hit the board allows you to take over the game. Even though it's well known that Lands is on the Tracker plan postboard, having any amount of Terminus postboard is a pretty big liability. It's rare that STP is overloaded postboard when you have things like Surgicals to answer Lands' combo pieces. I will try to surgical Depths/Loam/Krosan Grip/Ghost Quarter (board state dependent).
Also Lands should always be sideboarding out Crop Rotations postboard. They're a nonbo with Chalice, CR is usually a horrible topdeck and its really bad for the Lands player when CR gets countered either by CB or otherwise.
"Take your time."
Legacy: UWR Miracles
Vintage: UW Landstill
I sideboard almost the same as hyp3r1on, just have Blood Moon/Ruination in the slots of Back to Basics. I like to have an Entreat in the deck though, it can steal a game and create blockers for Lage that aren't weak to Punishing Fire (like Clique) to allow Jace to bounce the token.
Thanks for the replies guys.
I don't understand this assessment. Let's say Lands has the aggressive opening, with exploration and/or mox diamond, and you can see it's threatening to make 20/20 soon. Having a Jace in your hand won't allow you to interact with that soon-ish combo.
Let's say you are under Port lock and Wasteland Loam engine, it won't be easy to even get to four available mana with the correct color, and spend them on the main phase. Your priority is to shutdown the Loam engine, either via CB, Clique, or graveyard hate. Again, I still don't see how Jace can help with that.
Even if it's mid/late game, assuming CB is not involved, maybe we have not able to established CB floating 2, there is no way to defend Jace from PFire in the long run, you might be able to Jace-storm couple times before it dies.
Honestly, it's going to be very hard to play a 4 CMC spells while Lands player will often play 2 Wasteland/Ghost Quarter/Port each turn almost always recursively. Plus, Sphere of Resistance or Chalice, it's won't be easy to cantrip into our basics lands... But anyway, it's maybe a personal feeling.
IT IS TWO AND A HALF MINUTES TO MIDNIGHT
Out of curiousity, if all of this is happening, how are you planning on winning the game? Hyperion is describing situations in which we are at parity or not too far behind, and JTMS is the best way to win after you've repeatedly given your opponent 20 life via repeated Marit Lage attempts. Do note that he only takes out 1 Entreat, as he plays 2 in his list.
Without Counterbalancing Life from the Loam for ever or Graveyard hate (or Moat, Bridge and co, but these cards are not widely played), Miracle is not going to win the match. If it is true that Jace can win the game, it won't prevent you to lose the game where Surgicals or Rest in Peace probably will.
Let say we have 8 cards to side-in. I will cut the Jace and Entreat because with all the mana denial, these cards will be too hard to cast, Counterspell because there it dosent make sens to counter Life from the Loam and few Terminus if needed to make some rooms, considering Terminus is harder to set-up than casting Swords. To actually win the game, there is still Mentor, who is not afraid of beating 40+ life.
IT IS TWO AND A HALF MINUTES TO MIDNIGHT
You're describing situations where you are behind in the game and not giving a cohesive game plan on how you plan on turning the corner and winning the game. Take out a win condition that doesn't care about life total, I think, isn't the best way to go about attempting to win the game when Mentor has even more weaknesses than Jace does in the matchup.
You need to evaluate how you're losing, and how you plan on winning, not simply looking at the game as if you're hopelessly losing.
I don't think anyone is going to disagree with you regarding the importance of disrupting the Lands recursion engine or having an answer to early aggressive plays. But I do think that once you manage to establish your soft lock or cut them off Loam, Jace is probably the safest and easiest way to win since he can help lock your opponent out of the game while providing a clock that doesn't care about life totals.
Mentor on the other hand has a few more problems as a win con in the Lands matchup; For example it's softer against punishing fire and is susceptible to cards like Glacial Chasm and Tabernacle. It is definitely capable of winning faster than Jace in the right situations, but Lands typically has more effective answers for it than it does for Jace.
I share the same thought as well till one day they slaughter games my swords to plowshares and I lost within the next turn. Nowadays I will leave in about 2 terminus as an insurance policy. I am not excited to see it but at least it answers marit lage and tracker if necessary.
On a side note, what are your thoughts on wizards slamming down the banhammer on miracles? It is drawing a lot of attention in the B/R discussion.
Slaughter Games isn't a usual SB card for lands. I'd always still side out Terminus, if you see it game two you can change SBing for the third.
They haven't banned it yet, so there's really no reason to expect a ban is coming soon or really ever. The B&R thread on this site is honestly one of the worst threads I've ever read so I wouldn't take much of what they say seriously. A ban might happen, but I'd be surprised and it wouldn't really be predictable. Also this isn't modern, and most cards on the list deserve to be there on their own merits.
Slaughter Games was discussed as a sideboardcard on the Lands forum, for this very scenario (extracting plows), and based on the assumption Terminus gets sided out. How effective do you guys consider this strategy?
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