All B/R update speculation.

[Lemnear]

We dont need to ponder about LandStill if it has no chance to come close to D&T, Eldrazi, Lands and Miracles as the decks it needs to stand up to. You cant gear it for all 4

[rlesko]

True. So what part of miracles would you ban, Lemnear? Forgive me if you've already campaigned for a card, I don't want to read the past 50 pages

[Stevestamopz]

If Vengevince Survival turned out not good enough, it would probably just go back to being Bant Survival, which can regularly produce a turn3 Iona.

Turn 3 fatty? That's cute in 2016 Legacy.

[rlesko]

Turn 3 fatty? That's cute in 2016 Legacy.

I think his point is, the plan is dynamic. Its the option to go the beatdown route or combo route, but I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth.

[Lemnear]

True. So what part of miracles would you ban, Lemnear? Forgive me if you've already campaigned for a card, I don't want to read the past 50 pages

Either you ban SDT and end the whole bullshit of playing the clock and timewalk UWx back to LandStill and Patriot or you pick the surgical fix of removing Terminus so Aggro-Control has more of a game and potentially returning to the format beyond the remains which is Grixis Delver.

Both options have their disadvantages in detail. Maybe Pyroclasm, Plows and SCM are enough to compensate the loss of Terminus and we are back with CounterTop+Sweepers dominating the field a few weeks later? Maybe banning SDT would strengthen combo and Eldrazis to the point that Uxx aggro-control, D&T, Lands.dec & Co. struggle to find their place between 4/4 Eldrazis, 15/15 Tentacle-Eldrazis or Tentacles w/o Eldrazi (aka storm)?

I can not predict at this point. Maybe chopping SDT would bring more options back in the whole blue/white/red segment and various aggro-control and control decks would enrichen the metagame instead of my pessimistic point above.

My favorite option would be new printings to battle the whole lockout stuff rampant currently

[Barook]

Either you ban SDT and end the whole bullshit of playing the clock and timewalk UWx back to LandStill and Patriot or you pick the surgical fix of removing Terminus so Aggro-Control has more of a game and potentially returning to the format beyond the remains which is Grixis Delver.

Both options have their disadvantages in detail. Maybe Pyroclasm, Plows and SCM are enough to compensate the loss of Terminus and we are back with CounterTop+Sweepers dominating the field a few weeks later? Maybe banning SDT would strengthen combo and Eldrazis to the point that Uxx aggro-control, D&T, Lands.dec & Co. struggle to find their place between 4/4 Eldrazis, 15/15 Tentacle-Eldrazis or Tentacles w/o Eldrazi (aka storm)?

I can not predict at this point. Maybe chopping SDT would bring more options back in the whole blue/white/red segment and various aggro-control and control decks would enrichen the metagame instead of my pessimistic point above.

My favorite option would be new printings to battle the whole lockout stuff rampant currently

Wait, aren't you complaining about the rise of AD due to Countertop/Chalice? And yet your solution is to print more stuff like it?

As for banning Terminus, it surely would weaken Miracle's options since they can't nuke everything at instant speed anymore. Sorcery speed + higher mana cost + off-color mana makes it more susceptible to mana denial, which they currently barely give a fuck about due to Super-Wraths for .

What I don't get is your conclusion that banning SDT would strengthen Eldrazi. How would that work, compared to Terminus? If anything, Elves gets stronger since it loses on of its worst match-ups (that is omni-present in the format) either way.

[taconaut]

struggle to find their place between 4/4 Eldrazis, 15/15 Tentacle-Eldrazis or Tentacles w/o Eldrazi (aka storm)?

I move to change the name of the ANT thread to, "Non-Eldrazi Tentacles"

[Lemnear]

Wait, aren't you complaining about the rise of AD due to Countertop/Chalice? And yet your solution is to print more stuff like it?

It was a mere speculation that printing options to get around CounterTop in other colors than BG, could maintain it as an anti-combo tool without the stifling effect it has on the rest of the decks it pushed out of the metagame over the years

As for banning Terminus, it surely would weaken Miracle's options since they can't nuke everything at instant speed anymore. Sorcery speed + higher mana cost + off-color mana makes it more susceptible to mana denial, which they currently barely give a fuck about due to Super-Wraths for .

Which was the idea as I said, but I sure can't claim that this would definitely fix the problem for aggro-control

what I don't get is your conclusion that banning SDT would strengthen Eldrazi. How would that work, compared to Terminus? If anything, Elves gets stronger since it loses on of its worst match-ups (that is omni-present in the format) either way.

I'd consider it a potential effect if Miracles is effectively removed, judging from pre Miracles metagame (because lacking other data atm) which had Patriot, Elves and Tempo decks which would still have issues with Chalice, Thoughtknot Seer and Friends.

For Elves in particular, both options (Terminus or SDT) would be great news

[rlesko]

Either you ban SDT and end the whole bullshit of playing the clock and timewalk UWx back to LandStill and Patriot or you pick the surgical fix of removing Terminus so Aggro-Control has more of a game and potentially returning to the format beyond the remains which is Grixis Delver.

Both options have their disadvantages in detail. Maybe Pyroclasm, Plows and SCM are enough to compensate the loss of Terminus and we are back with CounterTop+Sweepers dominating the field a few weeks later? Maybe banning SDT would strengthen combo and Eldrazis to the point that Uxx aggro-control, D&T, Lands.dec & Co. struggle to find their place between 4/4 Eldrazis, 15/15 Tentacle-Eldrazis or Tentacles w/o Eldrazi (aka storm)?

I can not predict at this point. Maybe chopping SDT would bring more options back in the whole blue/white/red segment and various aggro-control and control decks would enrichen the metagame instead of my pessimistic point above.

My favorite option would be new printings to battle the whole lockout stuff rampant currently

Personally I want to ban terminus. It allows you to attack counter top by playing 2 or 3 creatures before the lock is established and racing a potential sweeper, and such a sweeper would actually have to be played at sorcery speed. Additionally, there is no way to counter terminus (Except on the stack and super fringe cards like the RG Goblin- grenzo?) whereas things like golgari charm / boros charm in response to verdict are feasible, or bringing things back from the GY after a wipe.

[nedleeds]

Turn 3 fatty? That's cute in 2016 Legacy.

Sure beats Petal Tomb Fuck You.

Re: Terminus

It only has text because of Brainstorm. Man if Miracles actually had to mulligan 2 Wrath, Brainstorm hands maybe it wouldn't have everyone crying so hard. Ban the enabler we cried as Survival died, same for Derpstorm.

Edit: inb4banisland and goplaymodern

[Ronald Deuce]

My favorite option would be new printings to battle the whole lockout stuff rampant currently

I think that would be great.

I'm curious as to whether you or anyone else in the thread thinks Wizards has made ham-handed attempts to do that already. Cards like Subterranean Tremors and Ceremonious Rejection look like really lackluster attempts at doing just that.

[rlesko]

I think that would be great.

I'm curious as to whether you or anyone else in the thread thinks Wizards has made ham-handed attempts to do that already. Cards like Subterranean Tremors and Ceremonious Rejection look like really lackluster attempts at doing just that.

Maybe burning tree shaman? not sure if top was a problem in ravnica block

[Lemnear]

Sure beats Petal Tomb Fuck You.

Re: Terminus

It only has text because of Brainstorm. Man if Miracles actually had to mulligan 2 Wrath, Brainstorm hands maybe it wouldn't have everyone crying so hard. Ban the enabler we cried as Survival died, same for Derpstorm.

Brainstorm, SDT and Ponder have only text because of Fetchlands. Brainstorm Terminus and other Junk back on top of the deck without being able to shuffle it away for free? So "ban the enabler" means banning Fetchlands

[Vicar in a tutu]

Brainstorm, SDT and Ponder have only text because of Fetchlands. Brainstorm Terminus and other Junk back on top of the deck without being able to shuffle it away for free? So "ban the enabler" means banning Fetchlands

What pushes fetchlands over the top? Dual lands. So ban the enabling dual lands ...

[Quasim0ff]

What pushes fetchlands over the top? Dual lands. So ban the enabling dual lands ...

What pushes duals lands over the top? The broken spells, costing mana... Ban everything with UWRBG mana symbols in their CMC.

#EldraziFormat

[Stevestamopz]

What pushes fetchlands over the top? Dual lands. So ban the enabling dual lands ...

And what do the Dual Lands enable? Magic.

We've worked it out team! The answer to all our problems.

we
ban
magic

[Julian23]

I would love to see Fetchlands go. They're one of the most annoying, time-wasting mechanics we have in the game.

[Zombie]

I would love to see Fetchlands go. They're one of the most annoying, time-wasting mechanic we have in the game.

RIP wallets.

[twndomn]

I would love to see Fetchlands go. They're one of the most annoying, time-wasting mechanic we have in the game.

That's the essence of Eternal formats, shuffling deck after fetching.

The real question is what the meta would be, in absence of Miracles?

[mistercakes]

i'd start with the decks that don't use fetchlands first :)

dredge
mud based decks
eldrazi
belcher
burn variants

maybe going back to merfolk etc. there's plenty of decks that don't utilize fetchlands that are played in legacy. would be interesting, although i feel like fetchlands and brainstorms allow people to have 1-3 sb cards to hate out the unfair decks a bit better.

would be interested in doing some kind of fun tournament without fetchlands.