I would always recommand playing 2 croprots in the 75. I dont like RIP as it is too slow, so the bojuka bog also shines.Originally Posted by juzamjimjams
Swords go in against most creature decks. Delver is the obvious one as it presents a fast clock and annoying blocker for nexus.
Even STP against burn is nice, either to save some life and remove a goblin guide/eidolon, or to emergency exile your own dude for life.
I also like it against DT because of annoying thalias and creatures who wields a Jitte.
Basically, we should not be caring to much about creatures that does not stop our play directly or threatens our plan. But you need some answers for troublesome cards. Strix is also one, but artifact hate can take care of that too.
Neffy cut a ponder! We should kill him
Do you currently run 2 crop rotation in the main or a split between main and side?
I'm running a 1/1 split basically just because I couldn't really find room for the second in the main.
I play Loams sometimes.
I run 2 in the main to support my 2 bimmense. thats mosly the reason. Before, with 1 bimmense, I ran 1 in the board and one in the side. Im torn atm whether i should cut one crop to the board and run a maindeck corrupter. Not sure tho.
Neffy cut a ponder! We should kill him
Hey all,
This is my current list in prep for GP Louisville. Been very happy with it on MTGO recently. If anyone has recommendations for improvement, I'd love to hear them. Below are some comments about my choices.
Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard
Creatures:14
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Glistener Elf
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Blighted Agent
1 Viridian Corrupter
Spells:27
2 Berserk
4 Brainstorm
1 Crop Rotation
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Vines of Vastwood
3 Daze
4 Invigorate
3 Force of Will
Lands:19
1 Forest
4 Inkmoth Nexus
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Pendelhaven
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard:15
1 Viridian Corrupter
1 Crop Rotation
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hydroblast
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Rest in Peace
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Krosan Grip
1 Force of Will
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Wasteland
I wanted a Corrupter main for Chalice, Jitte, Baleful Strix and other annoyances. Having a Corrupter main then incentives playing a GSZ, which then incentivizes playing a Dryad Arbor. I actually like Dryad quite a bit in principle due to the fetchlands. Next, I cut Become Immense because I found myself wanting more Vines and being less reliant on the graveyard. From Swords to Bolts to Decays to Maze of Ith, I just wanted more Vines and playing against Deathrite Shaman so much made me want to avoid needing s stocked graveyard, and, at the same time, I wanted a RIP in my sideboard to help against 3-color Bolt decks like Jund/Grixis. The rest seems pretty self explanatory although I will mention that I do run only 2 Probes. I recently talked to a very good player that recommended 4 main but I felt that having this much countermagic and a full set of Vines reduced my need to always know what is in their hand. And, in my experience, it's not hard for an opponent to hide cards with Brainstorm or have an extended hand on top of their library with Top. One last note, the STP in the sideboard have been amazing and I'm never going back to playing without them.
List looks okay. Here's a couple of things to consider:
-Dryad Arbor main deck is fine. Savannah main deck to save sideboard slots is fine as well. Having both, however, leads to a lot of incredibly clunky opening hands that can't cast Daze, cantrips, or Blighted. Both of these have uses in the deck, but I'd reconsider running both of them main deck as they'll be the cause of many mulligans If you're running GSZ main and no white cards main deck, there's a strong case for moving the Savannah to the sideboard.
-Adding the Viridian Corrupter/GSZ package and cutting the Become Immense as a response to Eldrazi doesn't make sense. Become Immense is one of the strongest cards you have available against Eldrazi, arguably more important than the Corrupter.
-Similar to point above, 4 copies of Vines of Vastwood is probably too many. One mana spells have a very hard time getting through Chalice/Counterbalance, and double green is not the easiest casting cost for this deck to manage. I'd highly recommend the 4/3/2/1 split of Invigorate/Vines/Berserk/Become Immense, maybe even going to a 4/2/2/2 split if you expect a lot of Eldrazi, as Become Immense is THAT strong in the matchup.
-2 copies of Viridian Corrupter in the 75 is probably too many, especially if you have GSZ to tutor it up. I'd recommend swapping the sideboard copy for a Sylvan Safekeeper (great with GSZ) or a Nature's Claim (doesn't hit Chalice/Counterbalance, but great against decks with artifacts that are looking to tax your mana)
Anybody checked out the list that top 8'd Eternal Weekend (link)?
Creatures: (12)
4 Blighted Agent
4 Glistener Elf
4 Noble Hierarch
Spells: (28)
2 Become Immense
3 Berserk
4 Brainstorm
3 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Invigorate
4 Ponder
4 Vines of Vastwood
Lands: (20)
1 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Pendelhaven
4 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath
Sideboard: (15)
2 Absolute Law
1 Echoing Truth
3 Krosan Grip
2 Meddling Mage
1 Necropede
2 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
3 flusters, 0 dazes, full play set of FoWs main, 4(!) Ponders, and a Tundra
That's a friend of mine, he ended up winning the event. I'll mention to him to have a look here, there's reasons for all the choices but I don't know and can't remember them all
Please do. I'm sure your friend must be an experienced pilot to have taken down such a large event, but I cannot for the life of me make heads or tails of this list.That's a friend of mine, he ended up winning the event. I'll mention to him to have a look here, there's reasons for all the choices but I don't know and can't remember them all
That list seems incredibly soft to Chalice of the Void. There are answers in the board, but it's not where I would like to be at this time. I'm curious what field your friend was expecting. The deck obviously performed for him.
That's me :)
I've been playing 4 Ponder for a couple of years now. I won that event last year too.
MUs were:
Painter 2-0
DnT 2-0
Eldrazi 2-1
Shardless wCB 0-2
Lands 2-1
Eldrazi 2-1
Bant ID
Shardless wCB 2-1
Miracles 2-0
Elves 2-0
I think Infect's main strength is its ability to grind, and Ponder gives you the consistency to do so. When you grind there's also often a moment where your opponent taps out or runs out of answers and you want the ability to go for the kill at this time. Ponder falicitates that too.
Most of my choices are in line with this:
- No Probe/Library to make room for Ponder and also because you want to see other effects when you cantrip. Although I could see 1 Library in there in addition to the Ponders.
- A 20th land, which has to be blue: a Tundra. This allows you to chain cantrips more easily, or to cantrip and keep mana up for protection.
- FoW and Fluster because you go long and want more ways to stop big spells
- As a consequence of the two previous points, I choose to cut Daze. However I could see a couple of Daze here, but not more.
- No Crop because of the white splash and also because it's not a card to grind, but rather to set-up a blow-out (when the target is Nexus or Waste)
- More berserks as they are more likely to have blockers
The build is a bit weaker than the usual one against Chalice/CB. But FoW/Fluster are good against both cards, and I'm happy with the Eldrazi/Miracles MUs anyway - I actually can't remember last time I lost to Eldrazi, it's really not hard to keep a good hand against them. The only MU which is really worse is DnT, because of Prelate, but again it's very winnable. And now that the best Delver deck is Grixis, I don't miss Daze in the MU. Btw, opponents play around Daze when they can anyway, so I still get some of the benefits of the card without playing it (I'm thinking about CB in particular).
For completeness: the build is stronger against combo, where Ponder really shines to accelerate the kill or find disruption. Ponder also makes you more likely to see your sideboard where you can play silver bullets.
And in 2015:
Rug Delver 2-1
MUD 2-1
Affinity 2-0
Esperblade 0-2
Tinfins 2-0
Deathblade 2-0
Miracles ID
Infect 2-1
Miracles 2-1
Bug Delver 2-1
I'll try and dig up GP Lille results too if you guys want more data.
Really looking forward to running this at my next weekly event. In the mean time, help me understand a few things here:
-This sideboard seems pretty unconventional. What are the 2x null rods for? And 2x Absolute Law? 2x Pikula? A brief rundown of how you sideboard against the heavy hitters of the format would be really interesting.
-No creature removal in the board is also pretty unorthodox. Do you ever find yourself missing Dismember, or even StP since you're including the white splash?
-On the topic of white splash, why Tundra? You mention an extra blue source as a reason, but I can't imagine many scenarios in which you're going to need to tap out for multiple Ponders in a single turn. Wouldn't the green to hold up Vines and Invigorate be more useful? Not to mention that Tundra is just an Island that can get wasted in g1.
-Pump spells are proactive by nature, and as this list has an upped count from what we're used to seeing. Would it benefit from some Gitaxian Probes? I understand that you shaved them for the full set of Ponders, but surely the potential to combo out quickly coupled with free information and a cycle must be something this deck wants.
-The counterspell suite here is puzzling to say the least. Force of Wills are typically not for grinding, and you've opted away from Daze while also including the 5th island. You've also mentioned that you feel Daze isn't very strong against Grixis Delver, but in my experience it's been crucial in fighting over T1 DRS or T1 Noble Hierarch. Daze has also been great against other flavors of delver, as they tend to operate on very low amounts of mana to begin with.
-3 Berserks and 4 Force of Wills seem counterintuitive to a grindy game plan, as they both represent negative card advantage. If anything, this seems more like a list that's focused on sculpting out a combo hand, and in the midst of an Eldrazi/Miracles/BR Reanimator filled meta, I have to wonder if that's where this deck wants to be.
I would love to see some sideboarding notes with h that sideboard.
Has anyone considered sideboarding TNN since we can still use our pump spells on it to race and not worry about removal? It's blue so it can be pitched to FoW and it blocks so can can race with infect against Goyf if needed. Just a thought.
-Sideboard: my core is usually
3 Krosan Grip
1 Rest In Peace
1 Null Rod
2 Absolute Law
2 Meddling Mage
2 Surgical Extraction
The rest varies quite a lot depending on what I expect and what I want to test.
Null Rod: for DnT, Miracles, Storm. I've always ran 1, however apart from DnT I never really wanted a second one.
Meddling Mage: I already have plenty of Fow/Fluster MD for combo, so the best way to attack them is via another angle: permanent hate (Rod does that too vs Storm)
Absolute Law: Mainly for recursive removal, like Lands (PF, Vortex) or URx Delver (Bolt, YP, Lavamancer). The UK loves lands so I often pack 2.
3 Grip: I know Miracles players have started siding out CB against Infect, but when they don't this build really needs an answer to CB. It does great against Top and the random Moon/Moat that people have because of Eldrazi now.
0 Removal: I just don't understand StP/Dismember in this deck. Everything we play is way more powerful than something that trades against a creature. Against Delver it's only good imo if they have a single blocker or a Lavamancer (but I have Law). It's not good vs Eldrazi, too many threats and Chalice. Bad vs Elves too. I just don't understand it. Maybe if you play 6 removal cards then you have a new plan vs Delver but until then I'd rather play 0
- Tundra: I was playing Savannah initially but 6 months ago I switched and I find it a lot better: I have 4 more spells that require U (1 Fluster, 3 Ponder).
It's really hard for your opponent to cut you off green anyway, and more often than not they save Wasteland for Nexus. The only time they don't is on the first couple of turns but then you can fetch accordingly. Also, Tundra is the first thing you fetch if you have your forest out already.
You could play the UG fastland in this slot, or even an Island, but I'm not sure it's worth losing a slot in SB (even though I like not showing the Tundra g1).
- Probe: I think you'd lose too much info about your opening hand, chances of opening 2/3 cantrips would be too high. Imo they fight for the same slots as Ponder. Also, you don't want to see too many Cantrip when you cast one, you want to sculpt your hand or find a missing piece.
As we said the goal is to grind by default, the window for the kill often present itself when your opponent is out of removal and starts tapping out for threats. It's often not hard to spot this switch or identify when you can't wait anymore, you don't really need Probe for that.
Pump spells are used as protection spells or to get rid of a blocker half the time.
- Counterspells: I think FoW has never been better now that the two top decks are Miracles and Eldrazi. On these 7 slots, I always played at least of couple of Fluster (just amazingly synergistic with the deck) and a mix of FoW/Dazes. I wouldn't go beyond 8, because I already have 4 Vines (best grind card), so the concentration of reactive spells would be too high.
Daze looses value quite quickly when you grind. And it's really not great vs Grixis as they see your hand with Probe/Therapy and have Shaman. And I don't think it's that good to protect Hierarch OTD, loss of tempo is too annoying.
- Berserk: I think it's absolutely necessary to trample through blockers, I find myself digging for one quite often so I want to find it. When you go long your elves lose value quickly. The free wins Berserk give is just a nice bonus, and against fair decks with few blockers (typically Miracles), I side out 2.
I will post SB tables later.
Hey dionykos, I very much like your list and independent approach to the deck, your general approach and card choices (no Dazes, no Probes, 4 maindeck Fow and multiple Flusterstorms) feel similar to what I was trying when I played the deck a little while back. I am almost certainly going to pick up Infect again, once I get tired of trying to innovate with Aluren, perhaps now sooner rather than later.
What are your thoughts on Blossoming Defense contra Vines? Defense seems very good to me with the 3 Berserk, have you considered a mix between Defense/Vines?
Thanks, I appreciate it! I've been following your lists for a while now. I even tried your Impulse over Ponder, as I understand your list is focused on playing everything instant speed (which is great with all the Flusterstorms).
I do consider Blossoming Defense, the only reason I'm not playing it atm is because I didn't have time to test it in Legacy. Defense is better in the attack phase, and I really like how good Vines is in the mirror and against Jitte, so it's worth having a few discussions and testing sessions on this.
Not a fan of True Name, though I have played Clique in the board from time to time as an evasive 1UU threat. The ability to flash it in coupled with the huge utility it brings against combo/Miracles probably locks it in as my non-infect threat of choice if I were to play one in the board. True Name is definitely the better blocker, but we're not exactly in the market for a 3 mana creature that can hold down ground combat.
All of that said, you're probably better off not playing either. The deck generally does fine with its own game plan, there's not much reason to include additional win cons if it's going to dilute our main plan.
Took this out for some playtesting last night. To be frank, I don't see how this deck beats Eldrazi or Miracles outside of the Inkmoth + 2x Invigorate hands. Pondering definitely makes for a more consistent mid/late game, but it seems like every "Deck to Beat" outside of Lands is either going to kill us or establish their soft lock before we can sculpt a winning hand. I appreciate the 4x Ponder build against slower fair decks like Maverick, Shardless, or Deathblade, but there just doesn't seem to be enough time to Ponder against Grixis Tempo, DnT, Eldrazi, or Miracles, which are all a much larger presence in the meta.
Cartesian, I understand you're in favor of trying new cards and builds that deviate from the accepted norm. But surely loading up on one drops can't be the right thing to do in this meta, especially if they're being run out at sorcery speed. Cards like Spell Pierce and Daze definitely aren't as strong in the later game as they are in the first couple of turns. But with the meta becoming more and more focused around turn 1 lock pieces or turn 1 Griselbrands, I think it's a mistake to cut out our soft permission and zero mana spells for more pump spells and more Ponders.
I do think the list is a bit heavy on one-drops and pump spells. I prefer to keep my 1-drop count around 20 (plus Flusterstorm), to avoid geting into trouble with a fast Chalice or a Counterbalance. That is part of the reason why I use 2 Impulse, because it allows you to dig for that winning Invigorate/Become Immense under a Chalice for 1. What I like the most about the list in question is the clear approach and (grindy) game plan, and card choices that are a natural consequence of that plan.
We have a great podcast from the UK called Legacy Breakfast, they just did an episode with Nic all about Infect! There's an article coming too, I'll tell him to pop it here when it's online. (maybe I should become a PA
https://legacybreakfast.wordpress.co...t-nic-genieis/
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote