[Primer] R/G Lands

[chaosjace]

I know it's not a bad card, but I just don't run into those matchups where it shines, or does any work at all. Maze does the job better without putting pressure on me or my resources (in my meta)

[jhport12]

I know it's not a bad card, but I just don't run into those matchups where it shines, or does any work at all. Maze does the job better without putting pressure on me or my resources (in my meta)

I can see how a Chasm might lose out to a different one-of land (Boseiju, Bojuka, Karakas, etc.), although I wouldn't recommend it. Even factoring in different metas, there are quite a few decks where having it matters.

Glacial Chasm has saved me against the following decks (where a Maze would not have):

Manaless Dredge
Mana Dredge
Elves (so many times)
Burn
Infect
Eldrazi (so many times)


I have also faced situations where Chasm saved me against decks I might not have expected it to (Miracles with a Mentor out, Delver, Shardless, Death & Taxes) either because those deck pack Wastelands, or because you expect them to only have 1-2 active creature threats. True-Name Nemesis, in particular, comes to mind.

[Stevestamopz]

Lands players, you all had better have a really good explanation as why you haven't been playing this badboy.



It's both Choke and 3/4s of a Mana Short but more importantly, the flavour win of the century.

[Dice_Box]

CMC is too high. Often, 5 is easier to Counterbalance than 3 is as well.

[Stevestamopz]

CMC is too high. Often, 5 is easier to Counterbalance than 3 is as well.

Choke isn't called the The Choke of Marit Lage though... Why are you not all as excited by this as me

On a more serious note, surely with Mentor being everywhere, 5 mana is easier to get through CB than 3 mana? It's not as if you're not going to hit your land-drops either...

[chaosjace]

It's weird to see people complain about CMC in a deck that is half lands or more. Plus all the acceleration we run. I'd run this card, I am also considering Nissa for my SB.

[jarvisyu]

Lands players, you all had better have a really good explanation as why you haven't been playing this badboy.



It's both Choke and 3/4s of a Mana Short but more importantly, the flavour win of the century.

any enchantment // artifact isn't that great vs Miracles because of the number of Disenchant type of effects they auto board in.

That's part of why I moved away from Choke to begin with....


The flavor win is very real though :)

[Crimhead]

It's weird to see people complain about CMC in a deck that is half lands or more. Plus all the acceleration we run. I'd run this card, I am also considering Nissa for my SB.

For the amount of lands and accelerators we run, mana is surprisingly tight. Both our Loam engine and Punishing Fire engine eat considerable mana. It's even tricky to keep mana free for Molten Vortex. Not to mention our non-producing lands, taking land-drops away. I had a hard time getting value out of Blighted Fen for this very reason.

I'll have to sleeve up this super cheeky tech one day and hope to get a laugh at my LGS, but it won't actually be very good. I've got (much) better cards to run against Miracles, plus I see a lot of decks where this won't come in at all. Lands itself is popular in my area, as well as Eldrazi, and D&T. Loam, Burn, MUD, Pox, and Dredge are all possibilities too. Not to mention Reanimator and Storm, which do run Islands but won't be affected by the Curse.

I could run it for fun, but it won't be very good. Maybe if High Tide ever come back I can hope to eat a counter-spell.

Anyway, thanks for making me smile this morning Stevestamopz!

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

I need 15 of those, if only so I can leave one after I 2-0 my opponents.

[Crimhead]

How are you guys boarding against infect - specifically what are you taking out?

My feeling is that we need as much removal and mana denial as possible, so that all stays in. Even Maze seems too important to cut - sure they can get around it with Vines or Needle, but it does bolster our defence and usually buys me time at worst. Meanwhile, Spheres and CotV are highly desirable to slow them down, and K-Grip is does good work killing Inkmoth as well as answering Needle.

My inclination is to leave out the Trackers despite the fact that we are facing Extraction (often they are targeting my removal or Wasteland/GQ instead of Loam or my combo pieces anyway). I guess I'm figuring we have to focus on control in this MU - I'm even shaving down the DDs to make room.

Any thoughts?

Edit - this is from the primer:

Side in: 2x Dark Depths, Krosan Grips for destroying Pithing needles on Stage/Maze and Inkmoth Nexus.
Side out: Karakas, Bojuka Bog and 2 Manabond

I'm not running Manabond, and Karakas is SB right now. Also I don't have Depths in the board and I don't really want too many in this MU anyway (especially without Manabond) as I don't think racing is the best plan here. Are you guys not bringing in lock-rocks?

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Usually cut the flex spots (Thicket, 4th Dark Depths, etc) and some number of gamble. Basically the slower parts of the deck, and then start shaving if I need more spots.

Usually only board in Grips (haven't checked the infect thread in a bit to see what he's bringing in) , our maindeck is already good enough to beat them and we don't want to dilute the deck too much.

[Benama9]

How are you guys boarding against infect - specifically what are you taking out?

My feeling is that we need as much removal and mana denial as possible, so that all stays in. Even Maze seems too important to cut - sure they can get around it with Vines or Needle, but it does bolster our defence and usually buys me time at worst. Meanwhile, Spheres and CotV are highly desirable to slow them down, and K-Grip is does good work killing Inkmoth as well as answering Needle.

My inclination is to leave out the Trackers despite the fact that we are facing Extraction (often they are targeting my removal or Wasteland/GQ instead of Loam or my combo pieces anyway). I guess I'm figuring we have to focus on control in this MU - I'm even shaving down the DDs to make room.

Any thoughts?

Edit - this is from the primer:

I'm not running Manabond, and Karakas is SB right now. Also I don't have Depths in the board and I don't really want too many in this MU anyway (especially without Manabond) as I don't think racing is the best plan here. Are you guys not bringing in lock-rocks?

I faced the same problem yesterday; the list felt extremely tight when facing infect. As suggested, I considered taking out the thickets, but I'm not sure whether this is correct when most surely we are facing surgicals in G2 and G3. Finally I took out a depths, a manabond, a ghost quarter and a gamble for 4 x grips. I'd like to ask whether someone boards in the chalices against them and how good they are ( they shut down needle and surgicals ). If so, what are you taking out? Is it worth it?

Thanks.

[Ingo]

How are you guys boarding against infect - specifically what are you taking out?

I only board in the 4 Grips (decays) versus infect versus Inkmoth or a lone Needle, RIP (usually played over extraction where I play), Library ...
I usually cut down on 2 flexlands (Bog, Boseiju) and also 2 manadenial like Ports or Quarters.
Ports are too slow against infect, and as KGrip ups the amount of hate against Inkmoth, cutting some manadenial is justifiable.

I never side in chalices or Spheres against Infect, because they hinder you as much (or more) than the opponent (Chalice1 blocks crop for Chasm or the combo, whatever comes up first, and spheres tax our Punishing Fires as well). I don't board out gamble though, as I really want access to Pfire.

EDIT: I have bad experiences with boarding out Thicket, as I sometimes had to extensively mull due to colorscrew. That's a shame if you need to throw away an otherwise perfect hand. So now I never board Thickets out anymore.

[DudeItsCorey]

How are you guys boarding against infect - specifically what are you taking out?

I actually take out the two cards you mentioned that you don't have in your main - Karakas and Manabond, and board in Pithing Needle and Kozelik's Return. Our maindeck is already so well equipped to beat infect, that I never board into the normal combo hate (spheres and chalice). I just play it like a fair matchup and always keep hands with heavy removal. Pithing Needle is specifically for inkmoth nexus and I can see not needing to bring it in. You can maybe go down a dark depths? Comboing off ASAP is not important in the matchup because if you have heavy removal hands you can bide your time.

[Benama9]

Hi all,

Last week I had the option to trade in a bayou for my EDH Gitrog deck. Since I already have the decays I was thinking i could use the dual as well to make the black splash in my lands deck as well. My question is: What are the advantages of the GRb lands build? Do all 3 decays go into the main? What about the board? I'd appreciate if someone could explain to me the main differences between playing both builds. Also, in which metas is better the splash and in which metas better no splashing at all? I guess the combo and miracles matchup get a little better, but I'd appreciate to know the community feedback

Thanks!

Edit: grammar

[Crimhead]

You've pretty much nailed it. Abrupt Decays (usually three main) shore up the Miracles match, and Thoughtseieze (from the board) does wonders in combo matches when combined with our mana denial and our ability to race them.

To make room for the Decays, the deck abandons the Punishing Fire package and not favorite of the leaner Molten Vorticies. This costs a lot of equity against fair decks - this is the tradeoff.

I'm less fond of the Jund build myself - I prefer prison and combo over discard and removal. Just a style thing. Maybe somebody with more experience with the black splash could further comment on the nuanced differences as to how the deck should be played.

[Benama9]

You've pretty much nailed it. Abrupt Decays (usually three main) shore up the Miracles match, and Thoughtseieze (from the board) does wonders in combo matches when combined with our mana denial and our ability to race them.

To make room for the Decays, the deck abandons the Punishing Fire package and not favorite of the leaner Molten Vorticies. This costs a lot of equity against fair decks - this is the tradeoff.

I'm less fond of the Jund build myself - I prefer prison and combo over discard and removal. Just a style thing. Maybe somebody with more experience with the black splash could further comment on the nuanced differences as to how the deck should be played.

I see your point here, though I have a question. Why isn't a build like this viable?

1xBayou
2xTaiga
1xForest
3xWindswept Heath
1xWooded foothills
3xMaze of ith
3xGrove of the burnwillows
4xDark depths
4xThespian's stage
1xGlacial chasm
1xTranquil thicket
4xWasteland
4xGhost quarter / Port
1xThe tabernacle at pedrell vale

4xLife from the loam
3xPunishing fire
1xMolten vortex
3xAbrupt decay
4xCrop rotation
4xMox Diamond
4xExploration
4xGamble

+ Sideboard.

I'm goldfishing these days with a list like this online, but I'd like to know your opinion as well.

Thanks!

[Crimhead]

I see your point here, though I have a question. Why isn't a build like this viable?

Most poeple like to have better access to black mana in order to reliably cast Decay. David Long runs an extra two fetchlands plus Bojuka Bog Main for an extra three black sources. This pretty means something needs to be cut; I guess the Groves make the most sense because Vortex allows us to run a removal package that doesn't need those Lands (it does need extra Red sources in play - hence the third Taiga).

I guess you could try to run PF in the Jund build (I think I even saw such a list once). Looking at your list, I'd go:

-1 Vortex
-1 Thicket

+1 Bog
+2 fetches

For a total of 61 cards. Maybe this is viable - I guess the downside is you've still weakened your removal package (albeit less so) and you've cut into your flexibel slots (no room for Thicket or Karakas etc).

I don't know how good this would be. I haven't tested much with the black splash because it's not to my tastes. Also with Prelate kicking around I like a more diverse removal package - Vorticies and PFs (with Barbarian Ring too). And to be completely Honestly I'm leaving towards the RUG version in the current meta. But by all means expiriment!

Edit - here are a couple lists:

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=14091&d=283785&f=LE
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=13156&d=277038&f=LE
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=13093&d=276511&f=LE

And there are more if you care to search MTG top8. They seem to be running a meeker removal package than a full on R/G build, but also fewer black sources than other Jund builds. With these decks I guess the issue would be reduced consistency across all matches. But as I've said, I'm not exactly an expert on the black splash.

[Ingo]

Hi all,

Last week I had the option to trade in a bayou for my EDH Gitrog deck. Since I already have the decays I was thinking i could use the dual as well to make the black splash in my lands deck as well. My question is: What are the advantages of the GRb lands build? Do all 3 decays go into the main? What about the board? I'd appreciate if someone could explain to me the main differences between playing both builds. Also, in which metas is better the splash and in which metas better no splashing at all? I guess the combo and miracles matchup get a little better, but I'd appreciate to know the community feedback

Thanks!

Edit: grammar

In addition to what Crimhead said, when you look at the 75, 4 krosan grip take up a lot of space for a card thats usually boarded in for some\all copies. Decay hits almost anything you board Kgrip in for, but as it destroys creatures\walkers too, it can trade for both Kgrips and Pfires in the main, freeing up 3 sideslots. You need a more heavy black manabase, especially if you want Thoughtseize in the side, as you really need to play TS on turn 1. Without groves you have Vortex as a recursive damagedealer instead of Pfire.
Its interesting to compare with Boseiju, a narrow card that takes an additional slot but is in line with the main strategy whereas decays free overall space in the 75 and is broadly applicable, but not synergic with the dredging theme.

[Chatto]

Any thoughts about this card:

Pacification Array {1}

Artifact - Uncommon

2,T: Tap target artifact or creature.

Tapping creatures pre-combat? Or too cute? 2-mana activation is perhaps a bit much.