That's pretty sweet, I never considered that. Makes it slightly less narrow, but still a bit narrow. Easy way to kill a Batterskull germ!Originally Posted by Brael
Also there are cases where you want to attack through Baleful Strix.
I'd still only run it if you have both land tutors -and- expect a lot of blade or DnT decks.
for those of you running Nyx Fit- have you tried Serra's Sanctum? The Towers seems to hamstring color enough, but I was just pondering.
I plan on bringing Nyx to the next weekly. I also wanted to give Aura of Silence a shot. If anyone on Nyx Fit can post a mana base that has been working well for them, I'd really appreciate it.
I don't think Sanctum is going to help the deck very much. You normally don't have many enchantments out, and if you do then you are already in a winning position. You mainly want to get Sterling + Starfield and then start recurring stuff, at which point you are pretty safe. First Rector activation is usually for something to keep you alive such as Deed or a game-changer like Humility/Doomwake, second priority is the Starfield.
This is close to what I've been using for mana:
3 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
7 Fetch (4 Verdant, 3 Windswept)
Could see a 7th basic though instead of the 3rd bayou. Ever since adding Parallax Wave and having Humility main, having 2 Plains is very good.
A key part of the BG builds I'm finding is the ability to Crop Rotation for Phyrexian Tower. I suppose you could always just run more towers too, but I like having the toolbox. Especially since removal on the power level of Path/StP isn't available in BG, as a result I can use the tutors to help with the removal situation using Maze of Ith.
I only have 1 Crop Rotation right now, but I'm trying hard to find a slot for a second copy. I like the land in theory for the SB as D&T is very popular and has become harder with the addition of 3 mana Thalia. The only question is if I would rather have it MB vs a Cavern or a basic.
Please continue to update with how CR tests out! I've been mulling it over for a while but it seems vulnerable to Daze / Force if you haven't got a Cabal Therapy. Seems like an amazing way to get extra mileage from Two Towers and / or Karakas though, and could be amazing in improving combo consistency for Sneak Fit!
I'm looking for a little bit more advice on the following, thanks in advance!
1. Cabal Therapy against Eldrazi: I name Chalice on the play, but if they haven't dropped a Chalice and you still have a Therapy do you typically go for Mimic, Thought-Knot, or Smasher (and why)?
2. Cabal Therapy against Grixis Delver: I name Cabal Therapy on the play, but don't have a preference on the draw - I suppose Therapy still? What about later in the game?
3. How do you guys like to sideboard and Therapy against Aggro-Loam? There's a very talented player in my meta that runs it nearly every week.
If I have a valuable card in hard and the rest of it is kind of meh (like a sole GSZ) then I'll name Thought-Knot. Else Smasher usually gets the nod unless I can tell they would have already played it out. Most games against Eldrazi, you will lose due to not being able to contain a quick Smasher (or two).
1: Yeah, I almost always name Thought-Knot.
2: I name Brainstorm on the play, Therapy on the draw is a decent option though. Later on it just kind of depends on the board state, honestly.
3: For Therapy I typically name Knight of the Reliquary. Sideboarding depends on version, obviously. If you're on my Sneak list, though, I would look at the Surgicals and the To the Slaughters specifically.
I think I'm going to drop the Cavern of Souls. The next thing I'm going to try is adding a creature land. Mishra's Factory, Treetop Village, or Hissing Quagmire are the options. Factory is ETB untapped which lets it become a surprise blocker, but Village is colored mana and is the best body of the bunch. In what seems like a distant third due to the activation cost, there's Quagmire which is both colors of mana and can trade with anything. I think the first two options are the best. I'm going to give both of them a try and see which I like more.
Also, Ash Barrens hasn't been the best, I think it will work out better once I use it in some Blood Moon decks but switching it back to the 8th fetch is looking pretty appealing. In practice I'm never using the land cycling and it's just functioning as a drain on my basics. Using the cycling actively makes STE/Vet worse.
Is it possible that you don't need any special lands for Crop Rotation to be good? It seems like increasing the odds of 4+ mana T2 (through Phyrexian Tower) or a way to get Volrath's Stronghold at Instant Speed is already valuable. Karakas as a way to save one of your legends or brick Reanimator / Lands could be great without having to play man-lands that don't see a ton of eternal play. I'm also having trouble envisioning a scenario where I'd get a Treetop Village over a Stronghold - they're both a way to get extra value from lands in a grindy matchup, but Stronghold can bring back Thragtusk or Rhino or Steve or Witness for endless value.
Thanks, I'll give it a try! Probably won't get a chance to jam legacy again until around the New Year but Sneak continues to impress.
Hey. Been lurking since the first iteration of this thread. I really appreciate all the hard work and generous attitude of the members on this thread. Makes for an enjoyable read every time.
I played straight GB for a long time and turn 2 Garruk, Primal Hunter off of Vet + Tower was always one of the strongest plays. Garruk and Grave Titan were the top of my curve and there was often an audible expletive when they hit the table.
On the topic of Treetop Village, it's nice to have a threat that miracles has to deal with that can "hide" from terminus for large parts of the game, but I always hated having it in opening hands because of the CitPT.
Additionally, I ran a couple innocent blood. Was always great against delver and good for setting off our own Vets. I could see it being good against eldrazi, but the turn one Chalice that they always seem to have is probably a turn off. Diabolic or even Chainers might just be better edicts against them.
It's possible. I thought a creature land would work well, but in testing it's been a little too clunky (could still be good against Miracles). It goes back to what I said a few posts back that with the risk of Crop Rotation, and the fact you're giving up a land that it feels like you really need to be able to derive value off the card right away. Creature lands take a little longer for that to happen so I think they're too slow. In a long game, you can get a similar effect from getting Volrath's and returning anything in your GY to play and in a short game you don't really want to dump the mana into activations.
Karakas is something else I was considering. I've liked Maze of Ith so far, but Maze basically costs you 2 mana (sacrificed land, new land that doesn't provide mana) so it's definitely not free. On the other hand, even Mishra's Factory costs 4 mana (-1 crop rotation, -1 land, 1 activation, 1 buff) so Maze is pretty cheap. Karakas has a lower cost but also a lower ceiling.
I'm currently leaning towards the 7th basic being best with Karakas in certain metas or out of the SB.
This is the manabase I'm currently evaluating
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
5 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
Karakas, Cavern, and Treetop interest me as SB options, but I think 3 lands in the SB is too many.
Options for the Crop Rotation #2 are removing Maelstrom Pulse #1 or Top #3.
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Echelon, it's your turn to empty your inbox.
Edit: Basic #7 is working fantastic. It feels much stronger than the other options.
Last edited by Brael; 12-21-2016 at 11:03 PM.
Hi all,
I've been playing Legacy for a while now, but Grixis Delver (while an excellent deck) is becoming a little conventional for me. So I'm interested in trying out Nic Fit.
I've read through the primer and the last few pages of threads, but I have one kind of open-ended question: is there a 'baseline' build right now? I know that there's a ton of room for experimentation, but it would be nice to get my feet wet with something that's been tested recently, isn't too crazy, and is a good place to start before branching out.
Your 'baseline' is:
4 veteran explorer
4 cabal therapy
Basic lands
Fatties
Add whatever else you like :)
The core of the deck is 4 Veteran Explorer/4 Cabal Therapy. Beyond that you have a lot of freedom, GSZ fits into most builds pretty well but isn't a requirement if you're less focused on green. I think the closest thing we have to a stock build is to play a 4 Siege Rhino build. There's a bunch of other builds depending on what you're trying to do, but that's about as close to a baseline as you can get. Anything else, at it's core is just trying to out rhino the rhino.
Done!
@Nic Fit baselines - Yes, this deck can play pretty much whatever it wants, but to be somewhat competitive one does have to be critical of ones list. Attractive as it may seem, some cards simply are better than others and you have to run some necessary evils in order to get the deck to run consistently and smoothly. Trust me, I know. I used to run Fierce Empath + Karador, Ghost Chieftain (and it was epic).
@Brael: Have you considered stuff like Tranquil Thicket? It sucks in your opening 7, but lategame you can just trade it in for a new card (and could even form a draw engine w/ Two Towers/Meren + Phyrexian Tower + Eternal Witness). Or drop a land and substitute an Altar's Reap. It's a nice instant speed out to one of your Confidants, it blanks your opponents' removal and forms an even neater engine w/ Meren + Eternal Witness.
I'd say there is a larger core than that. Some of it does get dropped, but you generally need a very good reason to do so.
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Other ramp creature (STE or Deathrite)
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Thragtusk
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Nissa, Vital Force
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower
I'd say most builds can start there and do well. Sometimes cards get flexed in or out, but the above is a pretty consistent core and you'll do well not changing it unless you have a specific build in mind.
I hadn't considered cycling lands. I'm not sure when I would want it. One of the goals with the deck is to get up to 9 mana (happens surprisingly easily) so that you can double activate colossus and still activate SDT. Crop Rotations function as an out to Confidant already if you need one, since they can always get Tower to sacrifice him. Crop Rotation basically does everything. It can get "removal" with Maze of Ith, sac outlets with Tower, ramp with Tower, recursion with Stronghold, color fixing with Bayou, feeds DRS, gets a surprise blocker with Arbor, pumps Meren counters, and shuffles for Courser/Top.
I'm not sure when I would want the cycling land. I definitely don't want to see it in my first 3 land drops, and once I get up to 6+ I would probably rather cycle it than use it as a land. I think the 7th basic works better. I've been running into issues where I can't ramp hard because I have a basic heavy hand and the extra basic in the deck helps with that.
In general though, I don't think you can be scared of Bob, the deck has a low curve for a reason. I just dealt myself 7 and the hand was Tower, Bob x2, SDT, Explorer, Catacombs, Deed. Basically a perfect hand. That's 2x Bob on T2 with an active Top. You're basically guaranteed to get 3 cards off that, more if the opponent is removal light. Plus what they trade for, and a Deed to reset everything after they die. Over the course of this game 2 Bobs combined did 5 damage by turn 5, and by turn 5 I was also up to 11 mana available thanks to the Tower and some recycled Vets.
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