It's 10 fetches, not 12. If you want 21 lands, go +1 Island. I only play 3 ponder, 1 predict, and I'm fine, and also currently running 21 lands.Originally Posted by TheArchitect
Very new to Miracles, and had a quick question based on observations after getting in a few reps (but still very few). I originally thought counterspell would be insane, but it felt subpar, so I cut from 2 to 1, which seems to be the norm. My question: has anyone tested Muddle in that spot? It's a conditional counter, so you lose some edge there, but it's also transmutable for a counter balance in the mid-game, which seems great vs. abrupt decay decks.
Is this just being too cute, or is counterspell mediocre enough that there's merit to testing it?
I am currently running a split of 1x Spell Snare and 1x Counterspell as I feel they do different things. Usually one or all of them is boarded out if I bring in fluster and REBs and I keep FoW.
is 20 lands really enough in miracles? i mean most miracles list look the same as they did before the inclusion of Engineered Explosives. so why does the inclusion of Engineered Explosives justify playing 1 less land?
when the stock list basically looked like this:
21 Lands
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
5 Creatures
2 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage
34 Spells
4 Brainstorm
1 Council's Judgment
4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
why then was the solution to adding in an engineered explosives cutting a land? is the thought that EE on top of Counterbalance = 0 so it takes a land slot? even with top and all the cantrips, I can't see how 20 land is sufficient enough to make land drops consistently.
People had cut Entreats and sometimes Jace so could shave a land. If you're including Entreat at least in the maindeck 21+ is probably a good idea.
Thanks for everyones input. This is the list I'm thinking of buying into at this point
* 20 landbase copied from above (1) Tundra
* 4 Counterbalance (4)
* 4 Top (2)
* 3 Mentor (3)
* 3 Snap
* 1 Jace
* 2 Predict
* 4 FOW
* 4 Brainstorm
* 4 Ponder
* 4 STP
* 4 Terminus
* 2 Predict
* 1 Counterspell
I guess the real question is MPS Azorius Senate foil plains/islands or stick with beta basics :)
working on my sideboard plans. do any number of pyroblast/red elemental blast come in against storm? while there seem to be very few targets, i would imagine that countering brainstorms, ponders, and preordains can be quite powerful in the early turns. i don't think you want all of them, but maybe 1 or 2 copies? what do you guys think? is it worth it?
I don't think this is the right way to approach sideboarding. You should be asking yourself what would you be cutting from the main board for pyro/red blast, and what the cards you are cutting do vs. what the blast effect cards do and determining if that tradeoff is worth it for that particular match up, you should also be considering how good your opponent is (based on the first game: are they attempting to 'next level' you?, are they going to board for your 60 or board for what your 60 post board might be like?) all of these would change whether you board in the pyro/red blasts (or whatever card you are considering).
I board in two pyroblasts, because most people have moved away from Xantid Swarm. I basically want to buy time until my plan overtakes theirs, which is usually around turns 3-5. Countering a brainstorm up until you've stabilized with balance/fluster on top buys you a ton of time, because they can just sometimes win, and brainstorm facilitates that like no other card in their deck.
I do the same. I have 3 in my SB but against Storm decks rarely do all 3 come in, since it doesn't hit their business spells, but would still slow them down enough if you can hit a Ponder or BS.
The purpose of any moat is to impede attack. Some are filled with water, some with thistles. Some are filled with things best left unseen.
I have a few questions that I haven't been able to find the answers to combing through the thread.
1. Why do I see less predict miracles talk in this thread? Has it fallen out of favor? Why?
2. Why Back to Basics over Blood Moon in a sideboard? Is it because it pitches to force? I'm not certain Force of Will and back to basics overlap a lot.
3. Why was Keranos, God of Storms useful for a time? Why is it no longer useful?
4. What are advantages/disadvantages of the two current primary builds : legends miracles and control -heavy miracles.
Thanks for the time. I understand that many of these topics have probably been discussed a lot in the past; unfortunately, I was unable to find them.
1) Predict has not fallen out of favor. A lot of sourcers dislike the card. The card is good in a ponder/mentor list, not in a karakas/clique list.
2) Back to basics is better vs. Oblivion Sower-Eldrazi-lists. Blood moon stops your fetches, which is important vs them.
3) Keranos was very good when the meta was Deathblade/Shardless decks, and before red was the 2nd most played colour, since he is very, very weak to pyroblast (on the stack).
4) Ponder/Mentor is stronger in a miracles hostile (ie. fast) metagame, where legends is better in a grindy metagame, partially due to karakas + value cards.
the mana denial cards are
Wasteland
Stifle
Back to Basics
Blood Moon
Ruination/From the Ashes
what I would really play to be free with my mana are the mana stones like Signets and other stuff. Surely this is not the deck for them..
I actually tested Mind Stone at one point - it was interesting...
1. Many people on this thread dislikes the card, it's still being played in Europe, but has passed its zenith. Predict is great when you're at parity or ahead, it's Not a card to help you when you're behind or when SDT gets turned off.
2. For the n-th time, https://youtu.be/3OmHYaupF4Q?t=11m15s
3. It's narrow, great against Shardless BUG, but pretty weak against everything else.
4. I don't think there's such term called control-heavy miracles, you have to clarify what it is. It's either legend Miracles or mentor Miracles. Sometimes people run up to 4 Mentors and 0 Jace, you're playing Mentor tempo at that point.
That is STILL incorrect. Look at legacy league decklists, look at GP Chiba decklists. Dismissing it, solely because you dislike it and stating it as fact, is just utterly garbage. You might not like the card, but saying "it has passed its zenith" is wrong.
Predict doesn't rely only on top. You have 8 cantrips, 4 balance to set it up.
This.
I've got twndomn on the ignore list now, I wouldn't advise listening to him, it's heavily biased.
Thanks for the input everyone. I've played Deathblade, Pox, Lands and Nicfit for years but I'm wanting to pick up Miracles. My meta desperately needs it because we are overrun with combo and fringe decks.
Anyway, it sounds like in a combo meta, the mentor version is more appropriate?
Also, engineered needed explosives: where do we use it? Chalice of the Void matchups? Vs True Name?
Engineered Explosives is played main deck mainly as another out to Chalice of the Void. As an added bonus, it is also very good against Death and Taxes being able to blow up Aether Vial and Mother of Runes. It's also an out to Sanctum Prelate when they name 1 or 6 depending on the situation. It's very good against decks that try to swarm the board with tokens like Grixis Delver. It can even be used as a way out of an opponent's counterbalance since miracles is highly played. Of course the card is also bonkers against Elves. There seem to be more noncreature permanents that are problematic for us as of late, so having access to Engineered Explosives is pretty good for us.
Monastery Mentor is really good to have when expecting to face a lot of creature based matchups. some of the top played decks currently have a really hard time beating a monastery mentor especially if their removal spells are locked under counterbalance. Mentor also becomes another angle of attack vs a lot of decks. For example, if you are only playing Entreat the Angels and Jace, the Mind Sculptor, then Warping Wail can blow you out when trying to end the game. Also, between Death and Taxes, Eldrazi and even Grixis Delver, Legacy is becoming more and more a mana taxing format. Setting up the perfect turn for an Entreat the Angels can be very difficult when your mana is under duress. Most people who play Mentor play an Entreat also so they can still have access to an "oops i win" card that can just end the game on the spot.
Oh, by your logic, whatever I wrote is garbage, and whatever you wrote is a fact? Just because you claim my statement is incorrect, that must make yours to be true, are you a mind reader who can read my mind on what I like or dislike? Thanks for refuting other people's opinion by claiming your own opinion as a fact, and being a psychic.
GPT Louisville at The Geekery HQ, Dec. 17th, Miracles - Sam Roukas, where's Predict?
MKM Series Prague 2016, Nov. 27th, Miracles - Angelo Cadei, where's Predict?
Let me know the next time Roukas and/or Cadei picking up Predict again.
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