Random Brew Time:
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
2 Badlands
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Boseiju, who Shelters All
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Beast Within
1 To The Slaughter
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Burning Wish
2 Dark Petition
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Sideboard:
1 Seasons Past
1 Slaughter Games
1 Massacre
1 Gaze of Granite
1 Pyroclasm
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Thoughtseize
6 misc actual sideboard cards
Grind with dudes, removal and discard. Dark Petition gets Deluge, TTS, Liliana. Probably run a 1-of Lost Legacy out of the sideboard, but it could go maindeck. Boseiju might want to be in the sideboard.
Deck has infinite inevitability with Burning Wish -> Seasons Past + Dark Petition recursion. Not great against graveyard hate, but we have a million answers to Deathrite and it's not like we'll have time for game two to get anywhere near finishing anyway.
The bodies in your list seem to match up poorly against Beast Within.
Maybe consider Crop Rotation too? It's an instant which plays well with Huntmaster, opens you up to more ramp using Tower, and is an easy one to cast for spell mastery when you want Dark Petition.
Beast Within is pretty necessary for its ability to kill lands, which Maelstrom Pulse doesn't, and if we're playing for the lategame we need solutions to the Lands matchup. It gets swept up by Deed at least, but a Jund Vindicate would be great.Originally Posted by Brael
That's part of what I'm using Diabolic Edict for. You don't get to blow up a Dark Depths, but you do make Marit Lage sacrifice.
And just to push the idea again, Crop Rotation lets you Maze of Ith the Marit Lage, or even a large Tracker.
I guess To The Slaughter does the job, and we have Wish -> Slaughter Games to stop them Loaming it back forever. Might be worth dropping Beast Within for more Kolaghan's or Top or similar.
I don't like Maze into a Wasteland deck.
@Echelon, @Navsi: Thanks for the advice!
After some fiddling and a bit of testing, I'm trying this to start:
2 Plains
3 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Siege Rhino
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Heron's Grace
1 Grave Titan
1 Primeval Titan
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Nissa, Vital Force
SB:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Thoughtseize
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Golgari Charm
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Pithing Needle
I kind of like the toolbox approach, but if I continue down that path I'd probably want at least one other tutor - any suggestions?
You may find that you want 3 Forest and only 2 Swamp. That is more standard. Green is generally the most important on T1.
Why the main Finks? Is burn heavy in your locale?
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You're welcome.
Shave some fat, add some speed. Kitchen Finks is a Birthing Pod card, 3 6-drops is way too much seeing as a single Sigarda is usually enough to close the game. And what MDHackbert said about the manabase, especially if you run AD over PtE.
As for tutors, there's Diabolic Intent, but you should only run that if you do your sudokus in pen.
Last edited by Echelon; 12-23-2016 at 04:16 AM.
Nissa, Vital Force and Tireless Tracker are no core cards, they are new additions, but not always there. the cards are good, don't get me wrong ;-)
I would suggest as core of the deck:
2 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Srubland
2 Swamp
8 Fetches
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Abrupt Deacy
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zennith
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Path to Exile
There 45 cards give you a lot of room to explore. There are maybo not the core of more funky builds like Scapewish, Sneaky Fit or Bithing Pod variants. Mostly the list is completed by some creatures like Siege Rhino, Sigarda and Thragtusk.
Core isn't necessarily white.
2 Plains is only important if you're running Sigarda
Ooze is only relevant if you're in a GY heavy meta or you are planning on beating down with dudes as your primary wincon, in which case Tireless is more of a core card than Scooze.
Nissa VF is a card that's good in all versions of the deck. You need a good reason to not be playing her.
You've listed the Rhinos core with the Rhinos stripped out. Nic Fit is not only SiegeRhino.dec.
The core discussion is pretty pointless. Every single one of us considers different cards core material and in the end it doesn't matter in the slightest who considers what as the core of their deck.
He's more or less right. The OP already perfectly describes the core in just one line. What might be nice is to have every major sub-archetype described in a general direction, rather then a fixed sub-optimal list like those are now in the OP. With those directions also taking on some pros and cons of card choices for the specific sub-archetype, ie: Swords to Plowshares vs Path to Exile or Duress vs Thoughtseize or stuff about Dryad Arbor and whatnot. Everyone likes to take his own spin at the deck and make their choices, which is fine. But it would be helpful for newcomers or just as a cheat sheet in general to have some background information on what to play and what not to play for each more specific deck. This should also avoid that people ask the same questions about the same stuff over and over. There is no golden standard for each sub-archetype, let alone that we are going into consensus about the main core of the deck.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
I almost feel that there should be multiple Nic Fit threads, as the variations can be so different. Sneak Fit, Jund/Scapeshift Fit, Junk/Rhino Fit (plus the Leovold/Atraxa blue splash version), BUG/Walkers Fit, Nyx Fit. Trying to discuss all of them in the same place can get a bit confusing.
The only core they can all agree on is:
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
1+ Bayou
1+ Phyrexian Tower
4-6 Basic lands in appropriate colors
That's about the only "core" this deck has.
This comes up every couple of months. The reason we don't split up is because a lot of card selections talk between versions, or at least give ideas of places to look for inspiration. Example: Nissa, Vital Force's widespread adoption is relevant to every version, not just one or two. The work the various people do is easily communicable.
Hey, guys. Literally just started playing Nic Fit with this list, and was wondering if anyone could give me advice on sideboarding and general match-up knowledge against D&T. Pithing Needle, Golgari Charm, Toxic Deluge, and Qasali Pridemage all seem good, but I'm not sure what I should be taking out. Thanks in advance for any advice!
Take out Meren for sure. Remember your sequencing of Therapy and Vet so they can't snipe it with StP. Sweepers are much bette than spotters. Discard is generally weak against them. You have to over power the board, and this means denying them equipment.
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Thank you for the timely response. So post-board should some/all therapies come out? And when you say that spot removal isn't as good as sweepers, does that mean some number of Paths/decays or Pulse+Vindicate come out?
For D&T: If you do keep the Therapies in and can hold onto them (or can wait on a flashback), wait until they fetch an equipment with Stoneforge Mystic and then tear it out of their hand the next turn. Guaranteed hit and a free look.
Deluge is a blowout, as they'll probably try to shut down Deed with Phyrexian Revoker. Golgari Charm is not as good as it used to be because a lot of the newer creatures that matter are x/2 instead of x/1.
Reclamation Sage is a good supplement to Pridemage (which can also be fetched with GSZ) as sometimes Pridemage is a Revoker target as well.
Also don't forget that while Deed won't hit the Batterskull unless you pop with 5+ mana, it will hit the germ token!
Finally, Planeswalkers are great against them. Outside of combat, Council's Judgment is the only way D&T can really handle them, so being able to flood the board with tokens or card advantage is a huge help.
D&T does an excellent job of punishing you for any stumbles and slowing your early game, but once you really get going it's hard for them to keep up.
I would take out 3 Path to Exile, 1 Meren and G Titan
Needle
Kaya
Deluge
Qasali
G Charm
G Titan is too high against this kind of mana denial deck. If you can get the chance to cast him, you'll be winning anyway. He doesn't stabilize early enough against DT like he does against other non combo decks.
With Therapy I usually blind call Thalia, GT on turn 1 or 2. StP of course if you need a bomb creature to stick in the mid/late game, or if you absolutely have to get that Vet trig. Stone forge is funny because you can usually strip the equipment immediately, but smart opponents will get Jitte and cast it. Don't let their Revokers name PDeed, if they have a Mother in play shit gets tough. Charm is great in this scenario, buts it's a fun-of.
Good luck.
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Personally I wouldn't take out any removal. Eliminating their threats puts you in a winning position since you have access to some great card selection in Sensei's Divining Top and Green Sun's Zenith. Also, when you lose vs them it's usually due to their mana denial and a combination of hate bears/Mother of Runes/Equipment and all of that is answered by removal (of some kind). I haven't played a ton of games vs DnT since Recruiter and Prelate were released though.
I would skip the graveyard interaction cards and expensive finishers:
Out: 1 Nissa, 1 Ooze, 1 Meren, 1 Grave Titan
In: 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Qasali Pridemage, 1 Toxic Deluge, 1 Golgari Charm
And Cabal Therapy always stays for me, it's great in many ways in this matchup: they lack card draw so discard really slows them down, it's a cheap way to stop their mana denial before it comes into play and hurts (e.g. Thalia), stops win conditions in the shape of equipment when fetched by Stoneforge, perhaps most importantly it ensures you can get a Veteran trigger since it allows you to keep priority when Veteran resolves and sacrifice him as a part of the casting cost of the therapy flashback leaving no room for the opponent to try to Swords to Plowshare it.
Last edited by pettdan; 12-25-2016 at 04:58 AM.
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