[Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

[Deckerator]

Did you guys try to cut the "Shardless + Vision" package, playing 4xPonder and 3x Leovold in this deck?

[btm10]

At that point it just becomes BUG Midrange/Control, which has its own thread.

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14310&d=285408&f=LE
Only 3 5-0 but plenty of 4-1 on mtgo.

Your starting 60 is remarkably close to mine (I'm -1 Leovold, -1 Vision, -1 Delta, +1 Ponder, +1 Strix, +1 Hymn). It makes me think we might be approaching an optimal starting 60.

[femuca]

Hi you all guys!

I'm just testing this deck for a few weeks. Before I played Jund, but I allways wanted to play blue cards :p

I've read many posts from this theme and now I want to ask some questions. My meta is basically: elves, d&t, omnitell, reanimator, jund, UG infect and eldrazis.

1) Generally the list use to go with 4-5 discard slots: 2-3 tourach and 2 ts. I even read some players that use 4 discard slots with only tourach. But in my recent experience I believe tourach is powerful but has bad MU vs Reanimate based decks, where TS is better. So maybe 4 tourach is too much. Maybe 2/2 tourach/Ts. Opinions?

2) About counters, the list is generally low in blue cards. It use to go with 3-4 FOWs, but even knowing my heavy combo meta, 3 MD and 1 SB are a good numbers for FOW? What do you think about invasive surgery post board? Against elves is almost a win con. Maybe just one in side.

3) Jace... a 4 drop even thinking that is THE Jace who are talking about. It seems allways difficult to cast. Maybe a Ponder in this slot? Someone wrote many posts before about using 1 in place of 2...

4) At Chiba GP on top 45, TAKUYA OSAWA, used Glissa, the Traitor in SB. The idea was recurring dead Agents or Strix (depending on the MU). Is a real value for shardless BUG?

Thanks you guys!

[btm10]

My current maindeck is below.

Land (21)
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Swamp

Creatures (15)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Baleful Strix


Draw/Manipulation (8)

4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Vision
1 Ponder

Interaction (14)

4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

Planeswalker (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil


I wouldn't run more than 4 discard spells maindeck in your meta, and would lean toward a 2/1 Hymn/Thoughtseize split. I wouldn't worry about Reanimator game 1 - you'll either have Deathrite and be able to defend it or you won't. My list has 20 blue cards, but you can get away with as few as 18 and still be likely enough to have one for Force. I don't think Invasive Surgery is good enough to justify inclusion, especially against Elves who can just grind you out if they don't Hoof you. Your meta is one where I'd probably pass on Jace entirely. Too many fast decks, and you really only want it against Jund, where it's just ok. For that meta, I'd go with my starting 60 and the following sideboard:

3 Thoughtseize
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Disfigure
2 Duress
1 Dismember
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Engineered Plague
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

There's a chance you might want to include a Murderous Cut as well, probably over the second Duress or the Clique.

[femuca]

My current maindeck is below.

Land (21)
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Swamp

Creatures (15)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Baleful Strix


Draw/Manipulation (8)

4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Vision
1 Ponder

Interaction (14)

4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

Planeswalker (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil


I wouldn't run more than 4 discard spells maindeck in your meta, and would lean toward a 2/1 Hymn/Thoughtseize split. I wouldn't worry about Reanimator game 1 - you'll either have Deathrite and be able to defend it or you won't. My list has 20 blue cards, but you can get away with as few as 18 and still be likely enough to have one for Force. I don't think Invasive Surgery is good enough to justify inclusion, especially against Elves who can just grind you out if they don't Hoof you. Your meta is one where I'd probably pass on Jace entirely. Too many fast decks, and you really only want it against Jund, where it's just ok. For that meta, I'd go with my starting 60 and the following sideboard:

3 Thoughtseize
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Disfigure
2 Duress
1 Dismember
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Engineered Plague
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

There's a chance you might want to include a Murderous Cut as well, probably over the second Duress or the Clique.

Thanks btm10 for your response.

I've read that Garruk is a good SB slot for Miracles, but in general is a good card for wich MU's?

About a 1xGlissa, the traitor on SB for essencially recurring Strix, Agent or even Jitte. What do you think about it?

Finally, chatting last night with a player in Cockatrice, he told me that for the current meta a heavy removal BUG list would work better. Do you thinks he's ok?

[btm10]

I think that Glissa is just worse than Leovold for that slot. She isn't blue, doesn't do anything against combo, and is graveyard reliant unless you're just interested in the 3/3 first strike, deathtouch body.

Garruk is great in any matchup where you want to grind. He's also solid against D&T, Eldrazi, and a few other oddball matchups in narrower circumstances. Not being Decayable is a big deal also.

I'm not sure what you mean by removal-heavy. Can you elaborate? I wouldn't cut the MD discard, if that's what you're asking.

[TTX]

I think that Glissa is just worse than Leovold for that slot. She isn't blue, doesn't do anything against combo, and is graveyard reliant unless you're just interested in the 3/3 first strike, deathtouch body.

Glissa is only good for that. The rest of the card is incidental flavor text. She's a showstopper against Eldrazi, but that usually only fits as a sideboard fun of


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[drocker23]

been working on my shardless list for a while now. trying to add in so many more cards than the stock list I use to play.

1) how many discard spells do we want in our 75? (not including Liliana)
2) how many -1/-1 effects do we want in our 75?
3) how many GY hate cards (not including Deathrite Shaman) do we want in our 75?

it's these numbers i'm not quite sure about when trying to make cuts to add in more cards.

[minyafriend]

been working on my shardless list for a while now. trying to add in so many more cards than the stock list I use to play.

1) how many discard spells do we want in our 75? (not including Liliana)
2) how many -1/-1 effects do we want in our 75?
3) how many GY hate cards (not including Deathrite Shaman) do we want in our 75?

it's these numbers i'm not quite sure about when trying to make cuts to add in more cards.

1) depends on how much combo is in your meta but generally I would say at least 4-6 the variables being duress, thoughtseize, and hymn depending on what matchups you expect to see most.
2) I like 2 toxic deluge in 75 but golgari charm has so many other applications I can't see myself leaving home without it, just be wary of the matchups you side it in where it might be a bad cascade. Jitte and night of souls betrayal being meta dependent as well. I like jitte because it's a sub game of unfairness that shardless doesn't really get to dabble in very often(sure we draw cards but in a format of unfairness we are playing pretty vanilla). If you don't expect to see many creature matchups these effects are somewhat worthless. 1-4 -1/-1 fx
3)this is another very meta dependent question. If you expect a lot of graveyard decks I think you want a total of 8 cards(including shaman) to battle that strategy. The real questionn is what graveyard hate do you want? If the majority is bringing abrupt decay to deal with their anti combo hate then sideboard accordingly. Personally I think leyline is the way to go right now but I wouldn't fault anyone for playing surgical, grafdiggers or even spellbombs. I think some have more synergy in shardless and shore up some of its worse matchups but it truly depends on the expected meta so build accordingly, not every event is a gp or whatever, you should know your local meta well enough to sideboard adequately.

[btm10]

been working on my shardless list for a while now. trying to add in so many more cards than the stock list I use to play.

1) how many discard spells do we want in our 75? (not including Liliana)
2) how many -1/-1 effects do we want in our 75?
3) how many GY hate cards (not including Deathrite Shaman) do we want in our 75?

it's these numbers i'm not quite sure about when trying to make cuts to add in more cards.

1. I'd say 2-4 in the main, depending on how much and what combo you expect, and then going up to 6-8 postboard against combo. I think 4-6 MD was better a few years ago when Stoneforge Mystic decks were really common which made Thoughtseize better, but if there's so much combo that a fifth discard spell main feels right I'd lean toward playing BUG Delver, BUG Control, or 4C Delver.

2. I view these more as "expensive removal/sweeper" slots than -1/-1 effects, and 3-4 feels about right for the current meta. Right now I'm on 1/1/1 Deluge/Jitte/Pulse main and a second Deluge in the board, but Engineered Plague and Golgari Charm seem like strong options. D&T's move toward more X/2s like Prelate makes me a little less keen on straight -1/-1 effects, though. I'll be testing Yahenni's Expertise in one of these slots when it comes out.

3. Again, this is meta dependent. I agree with minyafriend on 7-8, and on Leyline probably being the best option, especially because of BR Reanimator. After that, Planar Void, Tormod's Crypt, and Nihil Spellbomb are are all strong options. I'm less high on Surgical, but it's not like it's useless.

[alrightgame]

Well, I tried asking reddit for information, and all I got was "Sultai Shardless sounds a lot like Shardless BUG".
I digress.

I am a long time Jund and 4c loam player - I've been successful with Jund at smaller events, but not at Legacy GPs. I want to come with a blue Jund deck for GP Louisville.

I've found the most important thing one can do, other than getting lucky and playing extremely tight, is to bring the correct cards for an open field.

So these are my questions - keep in mind, this should pertain to a completely random field:

Hymn or thoughtseize main deck?
Two or more baleful strix?
1 or 2 Jace?
Leyline of the Void or Surgical Extraction?
3rd wasteland?
2nd creeping tarpit?
What fair decks do you keep force of will in the main?
Are sideboard counters at all recommended?
Do I keep Hymn to Tourach for grindy games, even if often the end game tends to play off the topdeck?

Your sideboard guides (what you cut first, ignoring what could actually be in the sideboard) for the following:
Miracles, Delver, Storm, DnT, Eldrazi, Aluren, Rb reanimate, Lands

Example sideboard
2 thoughtseize
2 surgical extraction
2 Disfigure
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Engineered Plague
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Golgari Charm
1 Null Rod
1 Dread of Night
1 Garruk Relentless

[ESG]

I am a long time Jund and 4c loam player - I've been successful with Jund at smaller events, but not at Legacy GPs. I want to come with a blue Jund deck for GP Louisville.

How much experience do you have with Shardless BUG? It's generally best to bring the deck you play most proficiently. If Jund is the deck you've had the most success with, that's probably the deck with the best EV for you. Sure, you can learn a new deck at a GP, but smaller events are better for that.

this should pertain to a completely random field

No field is completely random. Your request for sideboarding guides reveals the decks you believe will be heavily represented. These are what you should prepare for. I'll let the regular Shardless players give their opinions on the sideboarding guides.

[btm10]

How much experience do you have with Shardless BUG? It's generally best to bring the deck you play most proficiently. If Jund is the deck you've had the most success with, that's probably the deck with the best EV for you. Sure, you can learn a new deck at a GP, but smaller events are better for that.

I agree wih this. Even coming from Jund or Loam I'd caution against switching decks so close to the GP unless you've got a lot of free time to practice. Shardless is a BGx deck, but X is blue, so you pivot a lot between midrange, control, and even sometimes tempo approaches to games, and using cantrips effectively in Shardless is harder than in any deck but BUG Delver.

If I were going to the GP, I'd run the starting 60 at the further up the page and treat one of the expensive removal spells as a flex slot that could turn into Thoughtseize, the 4th Hymn or Strix, a 3rd Liliana (possibly the Last Hope), the 4th Vision, or stay the same. Fewer than 3 Wastelands is wrong, and I'm quite confident on this point. I'm a little more up in the air about the sideboard, but the following slots are locks:

3 Thoughtseize
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Disfigure
1 Dismember
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod

The two remaining slots will be determined by where I think my biggest holes are. Given that I the top tables be mostly Death and Taxes, Sneak and Show, Delver, Eldrazi, Lands, BGx pseudo-mirrors, Aluren, Reanimator, and Miracles, the two remaining slots should address grinding (Miracles, D&T, 4c Delver, Lands, Aluren, BGx), small creature swarms (Aluren, Grixis Delver, Death and Taxes), and combo (Sneak, Reanimator, Lands). So to figure out how to maximize these slots, let's look at what's coming out.

Against Miracles:
-3 Baleful Strix
+1 Null Rod
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Garruk Relentless

Toxic Deluge and Jitte aren't great here, but they're solid answers to Mentor, and Jitte is also good against Flash creatures. If one of the two slots goes to something good against Miracles, I'd drop Deluge for it.

Against Stifle Delver decks:
On the play: -4 Force of Will, +2 Disfiure, +1 Dismember, +1 Toxic Deluge
On the draw: -3 Hymn to Tourach, -1 Force of Will, +2 Disfigure, +1 Dismember, +1 Toxic Deluge OR same as on the draw if they board out countermagic.

Against Discard Delver Decks: -4 Force of Will, +2 Disfiure, +1 Dismember, +1 Garruk Relentless

Against Death and Taxes: -4 Force of Will, -2 Tarmogoyf/ Baleful Strix, -1 Ponder, +2 Disfigure, +1 Dismember, +1 Null Rod, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Garruk Relentless

There's a reasonable case here for cutting a Deathrite and a third Goyf/Strix for Thoughtseizes or one or both of the two flex slots. Goyf is actually very mediocre postboard when D&T has access to 4 Rest in Peace, and Strix does very little except carry Jitte, which is far and away the best card in the matchup. If both cards were creatures or a creature and a second Jitte, I'd cut all 4 Goyfs for both flex slots. Cutting Ponder is somewhat counterintuitive, but playing cards to nit affect the board in this matchup is a surefire way to lose.

Against Lands: -3 Hymn to Tourach, -1 Toxic Deluge, -1 Umezawa's Jitte, +3 Leyline of the Void, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Null Rod

Null Rod is surprisingly good here, as Lands is often hard up for colored mana. I'd cut Goyfs for a second Needle or a Vendilion Clique here if those were he flex slots. Needle stops almost everything Lands is trying to accomplish, and Clique is one of the best ways to buy yourself a reprieve from Punishing Fire or Loam. Crucible of Worlds is an easy inclusion if it goes in a flex slot, also probably over a Tarmogoyf.

Eldrazi: -1 Ponder, +1 Dismember

Crucible of Worlds or a second large creature (likely Gurmag Angler or Tombstalker) are attractive options, probably over Deluge (which you often don't have enough life for) or one Hymn. Clear the board one time and murder them with Tarmogoyfs. Don't try to grind in postboard games.

BGx pseudo-mirrors: -4 Force of Will, +1 Garruk Relentless, +2 Disfigure, +1 Dismember, +1 Flex slot
Supplement against 4c Loam or Jund w/ Punishing Fire: -0-3 Hymn to Tourach, +0-3 Leyline of the Void

Play to the board no matter what, but Hymn when you can. Creatures are typically too big to make Deluge productive, but it's fine as a 1-of. I'd consider cutting the MD Deluge for the second flex slot if both end up good enough. Garruk is the best card in the matchup. Leyline isn't amazing, but neither is getting your team mowed down by Punishing Fire. Wasteland is typically adequate against Jund since they rely more on topdecks to find Groves and Fires while Loam has Loam and Knight on top of Bob and Sylvan Library. -1 Hymn, +1 Crucible is fine if Crucible gets the nod.

Against Reanimator: -3 Hymn to Tourach, -1 Toxic Deluge, -1 Umezawa's Jitte, - 1 Abrupt Decay, +3 Thoughtseize, +3 Leyline of the Void

Flex slots, especially Duress, Leovold, or Vendilion Clique, would be welcome over at least one of the remaining Decays. Pulse can answer a reanimated fatty in a pinch, and Decay hits Animate Dead and Pithing Needle, which UBx brings in to fight Deathrites.

Sneak and Show: - 1 Toxic Deluge, -2 Abrupt Decay, -1 Umezawa's Jitte, +3 Thoughtseize, +1 Pithing Needle

2 Decays and Pulse stay to protect against Blood Moon. Goyfs would ideally be trimmed for SB flex slots (Clique and Leovold would be ideal, Duress/Thoughtseize would be acceptable). At least plan on fetching the Swamp early.

Against Aluren: -3 Tarmogoyf, -1 Maelstrom Pulse, -2 Liliana of the Veil, -1 Forest, +3 Thoughtseize, +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Disfigure, +1 Garruk Relentless

If either flex slot is good it comes in. The best card we have access to is Needle, the rest is just to make sure we don't get crushed by value before the combo kills us. Pulse and Liliana are almost invariably too slow. Again, Jitte is the best card by far. Recruiter versions can't combo through 4 Jitte counters without having part of the combo in hand, though BUG versions can. Stop Aluren and try to win the grindfest.

In summation, I'm leaning toward 2/4 of Clique, Crucible of Worlds, a second Jitte, and Leovold as the two flex slots. Right now Leovold and Clique seem to be the most broadly applicable, though let playstyle and your own assessment of the meta be your guides.

[alrightgame]

Thank you for your input. While I agree that one shouldn't switch decks, I've had a fair bit of experience with Force of Will and Brainstorm when I played my first legacy deck, UW Tempo, ages ago (I miss thee Fathom Seer). I've also see a lot of the tricks one can do with Shardless Agent, such as bottoming >2 spells to the bottom, fetch tricks, etc.
I'm not too worried about it - I'm far more worried about not having a proper configuration or sideboarding techniques.

It's interesting that Pithing Needle is so important (I agree) across the board.
I've got an Eldrazi friend that will need the Leyline of the Void far more than I will....
What do you think of Trinket Mage as a flex spot to get either Pithing Needle or Grafdigger's Cage? Trinket Mage can act as a card to pitch to force if it hasn't been cast.

[Arianeira]

I thought I was the only one who ran Glissa the Traitor although Leovold may take her spot now. Glissa the Traitor is good in creature match ups where you kill their creatures and they not exiling yours with Swords to Plowshares. Also good with Nihil Spell bomb against dredge and graveyard decks. Glissa is also the MVP vs Eldrazi if they don't have a Dismember or Eldrazi Displacer. Seems that online most Eldrazi builds are colorless so no Displacer although I like the GW Eldrazi build myself.

Really like Sylvan Library in this deck so awesome for setting up cascades and you really see many cards with fetches and cascades. I run Sylvan instead of the second Jace or 4th Visions.

As far as sideboard.

Dislike leyline of the void since this is a card advantage deck and mulligans for leylines goes against that. It might be a necessary evil against the all in B/R reanimator though. Surgical Extraction, Grafdigger's Cage or Nihil Spellbomb are what I like for graveyard hate. Dredge has been fairly uncommon so Surgical with Cage is probably better.

If combo is a concern consider splashing white for boarding meddling mage in addition to Thoughtseize. You also get a strict upgrade to Swords to Plowshares from Dismember. Although Vendilion Clique and Leovold take up less slots and you don't need to run a Savannah.

Aluren seems to pop up quite a bit online recently. Not sure if this is a thing on paper but Dredge of Night is pretty good against the white version which seems to be more popular due to Recruiter costs while also hitting Death and Taxes. Night of Soul's Betrayal is better but hard to resolve at 4 mana.

[btm10]

I thought I was the only one who ran Glissa the Traitor although Leovold may take her spot now. Glissa the Traitor is good in creature match ups where you kill their creatures and they not exiling yours with Swords to Plowshares. Also good with Nihil Spell bomb against dredge and graveyard decks. Glissa is also the MVP vs Eldrazi if they don't have a Dismember or Eldrazi Displacer. Seems that online most Eldrazi builds are colorless so no Displacer although I like the GW Eldrazi build myself.

Really like Sylvan Library in this deck so awesome for setting up cascades and you really see many cards with fetches and cascades. I run Sylvan instead of the second Jace or 4th Visions.

I think Sylvan Library is just too slow to run over Ponder or the 4th Visions. We should already be favored in any game that goes on long enough for the filtering provided by Library to add up, and the adoption of Mentor in Miracles and resilient threats like Garruk and Punishing Fire in BGx mirrors has made the life payment less free than it used to be.

As far as sideboard.

Dislike leyline of the void since this is a card advantage deck and mulligans for leylines goes against that. It might be a necessary evil against the all in B/R reanimator though. Surgical Extraction, Grafdigger's Cage or Nihil Spellbomb are what I like for graveyard hate. Dredge has been fairly uncommon so Surgical with Cage is probably better.

Leyline is just where you want to be with Graveyard hate right now. It dodges anti-hate like Abrupt Decay and Chancellor of the Annex, comes down (before) turn 1, and mulliganing to find it often represents a huge tempo swing at a minimum, often paired with a large amount of implicit card advantage. The reasoning of not doing something in Shardless because it's card disadvantage is often counterproductive: Force is strong against Stifle-Delver because it lets you use your mana more efficiently to overpower them; the card disadvantage is easily recouped incidentally over the course of a game.

If combo is a concern consider splashing white for boarding meddling mage in addition to Thoughtseize. You also get a strict upgrade to Swords to Plowshares from Dismember. Although Vendilion Clique and Leovold take up less slots and you don't need to run a Savannah.

Aluren seems to pop up quite a bit online recently. Not sure if this is a thing on paper but Dredge of Night is pretty good against the white version which seems to be more popular due to Recruiter costs while also hitting Death and Taxes. Night of Soul's Betrayal is better but hard to resolve at 4 mana.

Engineered Plague (on Beast) is a more flexible answer to Aluren than Dread of Night since it hits every variant. The white splash has been discussed at length and I'm against it. The SB white source isn't free, and most combo decks can win around or through Meddling Mage with minimal encumbrance. Phyrexian Revoker is better if you want a hatebear since it attacks more enablers and doesn't consume a sideboard slot for a land. Swords is even worse, especially against Death and Taxes.

[Ayiluss]

How do we sideboard against Stoneblade (Bant version particularly)?

Do we keep Forces in or board them out and go with more grindy plan and rely on removal and discard?

Thanks for any help!

[btm10]

Bant can mean so many things at this point that I'm hesitant to make a blanket recommendation. With my 75 from a few posts up, I'd board as follows against Esper and Jeskai:

-4 Force of Will
-3 Baleful Strix
+2 Disfigure
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Garruk Relentless
+1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
+1 Vendilion Clique

Bant is a little trickier since they're more creature based, they (usually) have their own Leovolds, and sometimes have Stifle. I'd probably board similarly against them, so:

-4 Force of Will
-2 Hymn to Tourach
-2 Baleful Strix
+2 Thoughtseize
+2 Disfigure
+1 Dismember
+1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
+1 Garruk Relentless
+1 Toxic Deluge

I might have the Hymn/Thoughtseize/Strix numbers wrong for Bant, but I think it's close. It's more board-focused than Esper or Jeskai so you want all the removal. Just keep their creature count low enough that Liliana and Jitte can carry you across the finish line. Save Decays for Equipment if you can, and try to maintain Deathrite supremacy.

[weiuweiu]

Goodbye Disfigure

[btm10]

I think it's close. In terms of non-overlapping targets

Fatal Push (always) kills:
Endless One
Serra Avenger
Entreat Tokens
Tarmogoyf
Equipped creatures
Painter's Servant
Monastery Swiftspear (though Disfigure can usually kill it)
Stormchaser Mage

Disfigure (always) kills:
Vendilion Clique


Corner Cases:
Knight of the Reliquary (more control w/ Fatal Push)
Leovold (sometimes can kill with Fatal Push)
Combat tricks (easier with Disfigure, relevant against Delve creatures & Eldrazi)
Monastery Mentor (can usually kill with Disfigure)

Maybe a split?