[Deck] Vial Goblins

[Olaf Forkbeard]

No changes to be honest. The MU is still about Mother, Equipments and Flying beaters vs. Removal, Pithing Needle and cardadvantage. I find Pithing Needle the strongest card in this MU followed by Pkinesis. And the MU definitely feels positive still.

If that's the case it must be my build. How many Shatter-like cards do you have post board? How much removal are you running?

[GoboLord]

If that's the case it must be my build. How many Shatter-like cards do you have post board? How much removal are you running?

1 Shatter Goblin MD
0-1 Shatter Goblins SB
3 Pithing Needle SB

Removal:
2 Kinesis MD
4 Gempalm Incinerator MD
1 Kinesis SB
1 Dismember SB

[Olaf Forkbeard]

1 Shatter Goblin MD
0-1 Shatter Goblins SB
3 Pithing Needle SB

Removal:
2 Kinesis MD
4 Gempalm Incinerator MD
1 Kinesis SB
1 Dismember SB

That's not so different than my own honestly. If memory serves the match up is really skill intensive, maybe I'm just playing against a better opponents than I am used to.

[kinda]

I was looking through decklists on tcdecks and checking out the top winners of recent big tournaments. I was specifically looking to see how many Anti-Combo cards decks were running in the maindeck. It was pretty enlightening. Miracles runs about 10 counterspell cards. Grixis Pyromancer runs 10-12 counters main plus 2-4 discard spells. Eldrazi runs 12-14 cards that either counter spells, make them more expensive, or removes cards from opponents hands. Even a deck like Jund or Aggro Loam that seems weak to combo will actually run 4-6 Discard spells + 2-4 Lilliana, giving them 6-10 anti-combo cards overall. Even Combo decks are packed with anti-combo cards. Show n Tell runs 8 counterspells, ANT runs 6 discard spells. The new Br Reanimator decks packs 8 discard spells + 4 Chancellors. The only decks I saw that conspicuously DON'T run anti-combo cards are Elves and Lands. Lands isn't a big contender right now, and Elves has the ability to T3 consistently enough that it can beat combo pre-board that way.

I always knew Goblins was weak to combo, but it was never so clear as to just how far behind the field we are. I always just chalked that up to us being a creature heavy deck that's strong against fair decks. But compare us to another deck that's creature dense, Death and Taxes, and it's clear just how much weaker we are against combo than them. Between the Thalias, Prelates and Revokers DnT is running 12-16+ combo hating creatures pre-board.

We run 0 combo hating goblins generally. Sometimes we run 1-3 Earwig squad.

It seems that we are very low on our anti-combo cards in the maindeck, and it seems a little unreasonable that Goblins hasn't evolved to run more. We can easily run 1-3 MD Earwig Squad which is obviously a very strong card against a lot of combo decks (though not all), and it's weaknesses against some combo decks is more than made up for by it almost single-handedly destroying Miracles. Since Earwig is literally the only anti-combo goblin we should probably be running discard with the B splash as well. Cabal Therapy seems like the obvious card to run since we have so many bodies to spare for the flashback, especially Mogg War Marshal. I know Sandro has had a lot of success mainboarding 2 CTs in the past. I think the number could be a little higher, maybe 3-4. The top performing decks right now are running a bare-minimum of 6 anti-combo cards in the maindeck.

I mocked up a quick list that I think I'll try out the next time I bring the gobbos to a tourney...

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Ringleader

6 Removal

3 Earwig Squad
3 Cabal Therapy

4-6 Flex

22-24 Lands

Are the removal and flex slots sufficient?

What do the other Goblin pilots out there think?

Agreed, but not sure if there is a solution. I feel like the best plan is to limit playing goblins to local events and hope to dodge reanimator/storm/other quick combo. Or transition to a stompy winstigator list like possibly below...but eldrazi is probably just better.

MANA [24]
4 Caverns, 4 Chrome Mox, 2 badlands
2 Pendelhaven,
4 Mountain,
1 Taiga, 5 Fetchlands
2 lotus petal

Goblins [32]
4 Winstigator, 3 warchief
4 Piledriver 3 Chieftain
4 Matron, 4 Ringleader
1 Stinger, 1 TSH
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 SGC
2 earwig squad
3 warren weirding

OTHER [4]
4 chalice of the void

SIDEBOARD [15]
3 aether vial
2 TSH
4 leyline of the void
3 pyrokinesis
3 mindbreak trap

[kinda]

Double post...are there any anti graveyard or anti combo goblins other than earwig squad I am forgetting?

[mistercakes]

I think the consistency you lose from dropping lackey and Vial aren't worth the chalices. Also no wastelands which are an important way to disrupt through combo.

[kinda]

I think the consistency you lose from dropping lackey and Vial aren't worth the chalices. Also no wastelands which are an important way to disrupt through combo.

I'm sure you're right for many matchups, but even Merfolk is playing chalice these days. The lackey vial build is awful to somewhat unfavored vs storm variants, show and tell variants, reanimator variants, lands, even death and taxes these days. I think a chalice/therapy build plus earwig squad is necessary now if you want a legit chance at bigger events.

[Stevestamopz]

I'm sure you're right for many matchups, but even Merfolk is playing chalice these days. The lackey vial build is awful to somewhat unfavored vs storm variants, show and tell variants, reanimator variants, lands, even death and taxes these days. I think a chalice/therapy build plus earwig squad is necessary now if you want a legit chance at bigger events.

I see what you're saying, but I don't think that any Goblin deck outside of Goblin Stompy has a chance to do anything at a reasonable sized event. If you want to play this deck, I think you can only play it for fun. The power level of legacy has exploded since 2013 which was basically when Goblins started to fall completely out of relevancy, and it's not like we've had any printings at all since like... what, 2007?

If I wanted to win a tournament now I would play either Miracles, DnT or Sneak and Show. I definitely would not play any deck with 4x Ringleader in it.

[mistercakes]

I think the best bet vs combo is to keep the deck pretty linear, run some cabal therapy and graveyard hate in the sb. The deck is very good Vs a lot of other decks and watering it down won't help. At least the miracles matchup is pretty favorable.

[Sagratho]

What abouth put on guide, how to deal with Merfolks??

Merfolks Spells are cheepier than gobbos spells, and that stingscourger merfolk is very strong. Merfolks spells is 2 manas 3/3 or 4/4... and goblins are 3~4 manas for a 2/2 body.

Piledriver is not strong as it was before. They cant stop piledriver with Dismember and Mutavault... and if the Vial is on Two, they can copy any goblin with phantasmal illusion and block piledriver.

And they hav true-name nemesis with jitte... this match is very hard now.

[Chatto]

What abouth put on guide, how to deal with Merfolks??

Merfolks Spells are cheepier than gobbos spells, and that stingscourger merfolk is very strong. Merfolks spells is 2 manas 3/3 or 4/4... and goblins are 3~4 manas for a 2/2 body.

Piledriver is not strong as it was before. They cant stop piledriver with Dismember and Mutavault... and if the Vial is on Two, they can copy any goblin with phantasmal illusion and block piledriver.

And they hav true-name nemesis with jitte... this match is very hard now.

Hi new one! I'm not sure I follow you.

1. Depending in your build Merfolk, but Merfolk usually isn't hard.
2. Play your removal in their Lords.
3. Overwhelm in superior numbers.

A Jitte or TNN can be tough, but Piledriver will get you there. Also, Image is blue, and remains blue, but correct me if I'm wrong.

I haven't seen Merfolk in agea to be honest.

[Stevestamopz]

What abouth put on guide, how to deal with Merfolks??

Merfolks Spells are cheepier than gobbos spells, and that stingscourger merfolk is very strong. Merfolks spells is 2 manas 3/3 or 4/4... and goblins are 3~4 manas for a 2/2 body.

Piledriver is not strong as it was before. They cant stop piledriver with Dismember and Mutavault... and if the Vial is on Two, they can copy any goblin with phantasmal illusion and block piledriver.

And they hav true-name nemesis with jitte... this match is very hard now.

Merfolk is basically the same now as it was in 2010. This is a decent read on it despite being 6 years old: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...in_Legacy.html (lol @ people whining about Survival given what the format looks like now).

[Sagratho]

Merfolk is basically the same now as it was in 2010. This is a decent read on it despite being 6 years old: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...in_Legacy.html (lol @ people whining about Survival given what the format looks like now).

No man... merfolks looks like this http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14179&d=284463

with -1 Cavern, -1 Mutavalt +2 wasteland (and -1 vendillion +1 merrow reejerey)

1. Depending in your build Merfolk, but Merfolk usually isn't hard.
2. Play your removal in their Lords.
3. Overwhelm in superior numbers.

A Jitte or TNN can be tough, but Piledriver will get you there. Also, Image is blue, and remains blue, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Phantasmall is not blue.

The point is... we have no time to "Overwhelm in superior numbers" without a good vial.

Merfolks plays with 2~3 wastelands, and they are more mana effient than us and have FoW on backup. Its like RUG Delver/ UWR Patriot Match.

Thats my Build

Lands
4 Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa
2 Plateau

Creatures
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Piledriver
2 Krenko, Mob Boss
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftain
2 Mogg War Marshal
1 Warren Instigator
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger

Spells
4 AEther Vial
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Tarfire

Sideboard
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Blood Moon
2 Wear/Tear
2 Rest in Peace
2 Warping Wail
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

[Chatto]

Superior numbers in cards, and creatures. It can be done, but again, I haven't seen Merfolk in ages (not when playing Goblins, or another deck), so my mind is a bit fuzzy on the details.

[Stevestamopz]

The lists are the same in general. Irrelevant countermagic, 8-10 lords, 4 TNN and Silvergils and Cursecatchers. You build your board while killing theirs. You can definitely lose but it's usually cos you drew like shit and/or they just exploded onto the board and tapped out every single turn.

Goblins is still favoured IMO no matter what your build is. Krenko and Piledriver equally dominate against a blue creature deck that has no way to catch up on cards. Just keep in your hooligan and brind in the 2nd if you have it in the sb. I wouldn't bring in Grudge/Grip though. Just pyrokinesis the absolute fuck out of them and clean up on aisle 4 with a Siege Gang or Ringleader.

[ScatmanX]

My feeling when I played this Tuesday.
Boys and girls, I bought my ticket for Eternal Weekend in Paris, so that means I'll be back here more often. Didn't even knew we had a new Thread. I looks awesome by the way. Thanks a lot.

Seen a couple of topics in this baby thread, and would like to chime in a few:
- Winstigator list:
4 Mountain
5 Fetch
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Pendelhaven
2 Chrome Mox

4 Aether Vial,Lackey, Matron, Ringleader
3 Warchief, Goblin Chieftain, Piledriver, Instigator

2 Pyrokinesis
1 Tarfire
3 Gempalm

1 Krenko,Kiki-Jiki,SGC, TSH

SB:
2 Pithing Needle
3 Blood Moon

1 Earwig Squad
1 Stingscourger
2 Tin-Street Hooligan
1 Ancient Grudge

2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pyrokinesis
Extremely greedy, but has everything that you need apart from combo hate. 1 of each hastelord and 2 drop to be able to play them all and 3 bombs.
Played it this Tuesday and went 4-0 beating Grixis Delver 2-0, Death n Taxes 2-1, AnT 2-1, Shardless BUG 2-1.
TSH, Kinesis and Blood moon were phenomenal. Squad won a game against AnT.

- Merfolk:
The deck has become much more difficult to win. TNN, better 2 drops, Dismember... and they play Jitte and have Mutavault. It is not easy, and you have to play very carefully. Watch out for TNN into 2 Phantasmal Images providing a 2turn clock. We can't play the super control game like I liked playing years ago. Kinesis is very good in the matchup, and I love TSH. Wouldn't board anything else apart from that. Instigator is also bonkers (better than Piledriver T2) being a must block. Steve got the MU right. And Krenko is pretty much a win as well.

- Combo Hate:
My philosophy right now is to dodge it. Accept the loss and focus on MU's yo can get to favourable post SB.
From intense testing we found out that to reliably have a shot against combo you need to play about 9 combo hate cards. That is just too much space imo, even if you play with flexible cards like CotV and stuff. If you REALLY want to go for beating combo, I guess the 3 Therapy and 2 Squad MD can be done, but I'd also splash W for Thalias post board to hit them in multiple angles. Could sketch a list if anyone interested.

- Tuktuk the Explorer
Yes, this is a card that we can use, and it can be good. But I'd only consider playing it again in a heavy Eldrazy/Shardless meta. It can be good Vs other Goys and stuff, but it's quite mediocre otherwise, and only shines against those 2 decks. I'm gonna start tuning my deck again, and see if he makes the cut. I'll start with the list I played in Prague.
Feels good to write here again =]

[Dan Pyre]

Guys and gals, while Brainstor- er I mean Ringleader'ing on my final decklist to bring to Louisville, I think I've had an epiphany.

I've been on 'Piledriver sucks' plan for a few months now and I've had decent results. Driver just doesn't match up well versus Eldrazi, Death and Taxes, Elves, Angler decks, Pyromancer chumps, Abrupt Decay, Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, Dismember... you catch my drift. The 4x Mogg War Marshal + 4x Gempalm Incinerator plan has been my go-to removal and card advantage suite and I haven't missed Piledriver compared to them at all.

Except...

There's only so much room in the sideboard for combo hate, if at all; There's a school of thought that relies entirely around 'dodge combo' as our way to win events. In reality, we DO want Piledriver in our deck versus Combo as a way to race them down before they have a chance to kill us. But, running Piledrivers against Thalias and removal all day doesn't seem very helpful.

WHAT IF

Piledriver IS the sideboard combo hate? You don't maindeck any so that your matchups against 'fair' decks doesn't suffer randomly ('Man, I have to go all in against this Angler and hope he doesn't Decay or I'm dead either way' as opposed to 'I'll just Mogg War Marshal and buy 3 turns' etc etc)

BUT

You get to bring it in against Storm, Sneak n Show, Reanimator(s), Infect, Miracles (to an extent, I suppose), Omnitell, Lands whatever you get the gist
Surely I'll still be running Pithing Needles, Moons and some form of graveyard hate (probably Leyline of the Void, everything else seems too slow really), but that leaves about 5-6 slots and fitting 3 Piledrivers there instead of the maindeck seems like it might be a decent idea.

Feel free to tell me how much of an idiot I am but I would love to see some discussion regarding this idea.

TL;DR: Piledrivers in the sideboard to be fast when we need it, but not lose to creature matchups in Game 1 where we weren't favored to beat combo anyway.

[kinda]

My feeling when I played this Tuesday.
Boys and girls, I bought my ticket for Eternal Weekend in Paris, so that means I'll be back here more often. Didn't even knew we had a new Thread. I looks awesome by the way. Thanks a lot.

Seen a couple of topics in this baby thread, and would like to chime in a few:
- Winstigator list:
4 Mountain
5 Fetch
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Pendelhaven
2 Chrome Mox

4 Aether Vial,Lackey, Matron, Ringleader
3 Warchief, Goblin Chieftain, Piledriver, Instigator

2 Pyrokinesis
1 Tarfire
3 Gempalm

1 Krenko,Kiki-Jiki,SGC, TSH

SB:
2 Pithing Needle
3 Blood Moon

1 Earwig Squad
1 Stingscourger
2 Tin-Street Hooligan
1 Ancient Grudge

2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pyrokinesis
Extremely greedy, but has everything that you need apart from combo hate. 1 of each hastelord and 2 drop to be able to play them all and 3 bombs.
Played it this Tuesday and went 4-0 beating Grixis Delver 2-0, Death n Taxes 2-1, AnT 2-1, Shardless BUG 2-1.
TSH, Kinesis and Blood moon were phenomenal. Squad won a game against AnT.

- Merfolk:
The deck has become much more difficult to win. TNN, better 2 drops, Dismember... and they play Jitte and have Mutavault. It is not easy, and you have to play very carefully. Watch out for TNN into 2 Phantasmal Images providing a 2turn clock. We can't play the super control game like I liked playing years ago. Kinesis is very good in the matchup, and I love TSH. Wouldn't board anything else apart from that. Instigator is also bonkers (better than Piledriver T2) being a must block. Steve got the MU right. And Krenko is pretty much a win as well.

- Combo Hate:
My philosophy right now is to dodge it. Accept the loss and focus on MU's yo can get to favourable post SB.
From intense testing we found out that to reliably have a shot against combo you need to play about 9 combo hate cards. That is just too much space imo, even if you play with flexible cards like CotV and stuff. If you REALLY want to go for beating combo, I guess the 3 Therapy and 2 Squad MD can be done, but I'd also splash W for Thalias post board to hit them in multiple angles. Could sketch a list if anyone interested.

- Tuktuk the Explorer
Yes, this is a card that we can use, and it can be good. But I'd only consider playing it again in a heavy Eldrazy/Shardless meta. It can be good Vs other Goys and stuff, but it's quite mediocre otherwise, and only shines against those 2 decks. I'm gonna start tuning my deck again, and see if he makes the cut. I'll start with the list I played in Prague.
Feels good to write here again =]

Is 4 lackey and 3 instigator necessary? I bet 1/2 earwig squad could get squeezed into the main.

[Sagratho]

Why run Pithing Needle, if u have 3 artifact hate on SB?

[mistercakes]

Why run Pithing Needle, if u have 3 artifact hate on SB?

pithing needle is also good vs non artifacts :) (sneak attack and griselbrand are some of the major ones that come to mind).