So Leovold is a thing now i guess:Originally Posted by Pilhas
Does it replace Teeg, Scooze or 4th Bob?
Do we need a Tropical Island in the manabase or can we rely on Mox'n to hardcast it on a random occasion?
If we do play a Tropical Island, could we still keep running the combo?
Personally i think i do not want to "pollute" the manabase any further playing another dual for just one card. The card must be incredibly good just for that.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
As a one-of, and between DRS, GSZ, and 4x Mox Diamonds, I think you can always reasonably expect to have some means to get 1x Leovold onto the field.
@Bobmans
If you run the Tropical I advise to not run the combo. Mana is a shitfest already.
I believe that to run leovold you need a fetchable source, some hands you never see a mox and we already get a fair share of cards stranded in hand.
If you can run DRS thats a plus on the Leovold.
That said.... I think I am gonna drop him :) He is really good when it is good but lackluster overall.
When ahead he shuts the game, when behind a misery of a 3/3 don't cut it.
But feel free to test him, just don't get obsessed(like me!) over the times he is great, and start counting the times he could be relevant.
Thanks for the response!
Re: TES:
I'd like to think that if I had more energy and trusted myself more I would have made those sideboard changes in real time. But maybe not - I remember being dubious of Leyline of the Void, though at this point I'm convinced it does way more in the matchup than cards like Abrupt Decay and Punishing Fire (I guess it doesn't do enough damage fast enough to limit them from winning via Ad Nauseum).
Though I am going to need *way* more knowledge and understanding of the TES deck to be able to use Thoughtseize proficiently against them. It strikes me as a card that can be absolutely devastating in the matchup if played early, since not only do you strip a key card, seeing their hand should in principal be a huge help in prioritizing and determining your lines of play.
Re: Miracles:
I would definitely appreciate some more tips/knowledge/discussion on how to approach the matchup. I was not aware of From the Ashes as a card to watch out for - duly noted.
In particular, I have some doubts about Thoughtseize. I can see how it can be a great opener, particularly on the play, since you can take/force their Force to clear the way for Chalice/Bob/Library. But doesn't having only two copies make that somewhat unreliable? Because past the first turn, they can Brainstorm to hide key cards and information from you in response to Thoughtseize. It seems like the card becomes much worse as the game goes on. But I admit that I have not tried the card in the matchup, and that I am likely not seeing the big picture here. Help me clear this up!
What's the play against shardless BUG? The MU seems to be terrible... I always lose the ressource race due to T1 shaman or Visions.
Another question: There is this Mats_Ole guy who finishes MTGO leagues 5-0 with Aggro Loam one after another. He is not playing the DD combo which irritates me. Whenever I cut the combo I want it back after 5 games and several "if only I had the combo" moments.
I really want to go deep into this deck but right now I'm losing more than I'm winning. Unfortunately this deck is rarely played by pros, so there isn't that much content to rely on... Except Mats_Ole (who also streams on twitch!). If you are here, Mats_Ole, I'd be glad to learn something from you!
I haven't played this matchup in a while, but I assume not much has changed. But I usually go for chalice on 0 to cut back card advantage then punishing fire gets rid of most of their threats. Just need to land a blocker for goyf. I don't play this dd version either. Just never seemed to need it.
It's just... Sometimes you are in a really bad spot with just a KotR in play. With the combo this usually is a 2 turn clock, without you often sit there and fetch around. Also, KotR herself does not have evasion which often makes it much worse against small chump blockers. Well, probably most people will say that it's a personal choice, but most lists I see on the internet do not play the combo which makes me think. Maybe I often take the wrong role in games.
Another horrible MU is UR Delver. We barely have life gain in our deck and they are so fast. An early chalice is the only way to win this one, imo.
My record against shardless bug is like 80% since I began testing for GP Prague last year.
It just boils down to Tarmogoyf. I actually believe that their card advantage is not important since the don't do nothing with it.
Punishing fire kills all creatures except goyf, save decays to goyfs/library(if they run it).
If jace/liliana comes down PFire them. It all revolves around you and your removal. Their manabase is also weak.
T1 DRS is their best play by far, if you deal with that you win the game easily.
post sideboard its a bit more grindy, I usually take out 3-4 chalice and 2 mox since you need better cards in hand.
i do great online when I decide to play the deck in a league. Honestly the deck just takes repetition. Shardless isn't horrrible, just have to deal with goyf. Protect punishing fire as much as possible, that's our source of card advantage. I don't play the DD combo either, I don't like the mana base how it is and I sure don't want to add another land and cut an action spell.
Here's a list for reference http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=14269&d=285123&f=LE
What's the play against shardless BUG? The MU seems to be terrible... I always lose the ressource race due to T1 shaman or Visions.
Another question: There is this Mats_Ole guy who finishes MTGO leagues 5-0 with Aggro Loam one after another. He is not playing the DD combo which irritates me. Whenever I cut the combo I want it back after 5 games and several "if only I had the combo" moments.
I really want to go deep into this deck but right now I'm losing more than I'm winning. Unfortunately this deck is rarely played by pros, so there isn't that much content to rely on... Except Mats_Ole (who also streams on twitch!). If you are here, Mats_Ole, I'd be glad to learn something from you!
I feel like evryone else have given you the same tips i would give you. You should be able to grind them out if the game goes long, as punishing fire kills evrything, exept goyf. So when posible try to keep some way of killing goyf. Other then that, you also can't leave shamans to long on the board, but sometimes it's better to wait on a grove to save fire then playing fire into to shamans. You really have to get a feel for how much time you have to stabilize. Also it's important to relize that shardless only has a Limited number of removal spells and the decay really is what's holding the deck together against you. Usually you can overload their removal.
You want to board in such a way that you get more threat dense, so i usually board out the chalices. Also keep in mind that swords, ooze and deathrite can save your punishing fires from a surgical in a pinch.
As to the DD combo, another point against it in this matchup (the manabase beeing the other) is that shardless as a deck has problems with dealing with the token, but playing for the token puts you in a another role then i feel you want to play against the deck. (trying to be proactive and ending the game) insted of trying to grind them out.
Hope that helps.
Well, Should have probably thought about the onslaught that is working retail during Christmas before posting about 'free time'
@Pilhas
Would love to shoot you through what I've got probably early next year if you're interested.
I play Loams sometimes.
Thanks for your reply! I actually started to watch your videos on twitch and must say, that I definitely played the deck wrong (and not the wrong deck, what I thought before :D). I think the DD combo in a way makes new players "blind" for all the small details of the deck. If you run the combo and have a KotR in hand, you very often just try to end the game asap. It's probably better for people that do not know the format good enough and need some kind of "win button". Anyway, watching your stream lets me understand why we don't need it at all. It's all about grinding and reading your opponent.
Next week I'm going to play a legacy tournament and will take your list (the recent one, Cabal Pit main). Only changes are -1 Tabernacle () and +1 Leyline/+1 StP (will be a last minute decision).
I'm still learning the deck and haven't gone better than 1-1-2 at my weekly and I would love to watch mats_ole vids. Could you link the twitch channel?
https://www.twitch.tv/mats_
Thanks Quasim0ff
Also I have to agree with Stuhl, after watching mats play, I have been playing this deck wrong. Mats_ole use of loam is extremely liberal compared to how I have been using it.
I would argue that there isn't a correct way to play or a style you should be trying for. If what you are doing is working in a given situation, then that is correct. Furthermore, ideal lines in this deck are extremely dependent on the situation. Anything like "use loam more" or "It's all about" X or Y are going to be wrong. As a default gameplan anyway, matchup advice is a different beast entirely.
Typically against GB decks I see my chances of finding a spot where the opponent does not have Decay up (which foils the Marit Lage plan) as being better than out-ginding the opponent. All I have to do is have a live knight and catch them with their pants down for one turn vs beating them at their own gameplan.
Thats not to say that I'm playing toward that situation at the expense of others. If a different line happens to be better, then of course that is the one to go with that one. The first one just happens to happen to me a good amount of the time.
To restate the above point, it isn't about which aspect/strategy/part of the deck is better. It is about knowing when to use which.
I could have worded my post better. What I meant was by not playing loam out more often I was missing out on a major aspect of the deck and after seeing mats play I am better able to utilize all the strategies this deck has at its disposal.
How does Decay foil the Marit Lage plan? The token is indestructible. Do you mean they'll Decay the KotR if you fetch up stage?
That's exactly what I mean. Worst case scenario is they let us fetch stage and decay knight before we untap. That play isn't exactly a blowout but it is about as good as it gets for our opponent. Failing that, we are not actually in a worse position to grind or anything.
People have thought about playing Eternal Witness and Volrath's Stronghold in the past. This card is like Witness, but it trades the ability to get back removal and Knight for being way faster at other things. It probably does not make the cut, but it feels on avg better (faster) than the other cards.
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