Miracle Control

[btm10]

In my opinion though, Aluren versus Miracles is close to a 50-50 matchup tipping in one direction depending on pilot skill. My usual game plan versus the deck is to set up Jace as soon as possible to match the card advantage engine of Aluren. Also hide key counterspells with top to ensure you have an answer to the enchantment that is safe from discard. Most of the time the way I lose postboard is due to Carpet of Flowers. Answering that is paramount.

This sounds about right. I've run Golgari Charm in the board of the BUG version since it's toturable with Dimir Infiltrator, but I think most people on BUG (including me) have switched to a mix of Traverse the Ulvenwald and Ponder. Another note on the BUG version is that they run their own Forces to protect the combo rather than maindecking Therapy.

[twndomn]

@lordofthepit. Omg - you just sparked my creative juices. I need to get my Humility altered like this:

Lossett was testing Humility on stream the other day. It's not as narrow as people think.

[oppomtg]

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I'm prepping for GP Louisville and am trying to figure out a rough sideboard plan against Aluren. I haven't got to test the match as much as I'd like and doubt I'll get much of a chance before the event. I'm playing a fairly stock build of the Brainstorm Show's mentor deck from Columbus, just updated a bit for the current meta most significantly by adding a Kozilek's Return and Surgical Extraction at the cost of a couple Pyroblast.

Right now, my plan against Aluren looks something like this but I could be horribly wrong. Anyone more experienced in the matchup want to chime in?


+2 Wear//Tear
+1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Spell Pierce
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Mountain
-2 Engineered Explosives
-1 Predict
-2 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Plains
-1 Terminus


I'm reasonably confident on what I'm bringing in, though an Entreat the Angels is likely arguable for a quicker clock. I'm less sure about what to cut. Counterbalance seems meh. I'm not sure if some number of Terminus (which feels clunky) should go or how good Engineered Explosives is.

Thanks in advance.

Edit:

Tweaked the plan.

[Dice_Box]

Try Meddling Mage too as an option. It's useful against decks that need to resolve a single spell to win.

I found something, and I would like your views on it. If I can make it work, I might play in this playground for a while.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/514604#paper

The list with A single change:
2 Monastery Mentor
1 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Council's Judgment
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus

4 Counterbalance

1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Karakas
1 Mountain
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Containment Priest
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Flusterstorm
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Meddling Mage
1 Moat
2 Pyroblast
1 Rest in Peace
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Wasteland
2 Wear//Tear

This is my speed, but I don't know Miracles well enough to see the issues. What do you all think?

[Poron]

Meddling Mage on Sneak Attack/Snat will allow you to win a couple of matches but isn't priest just better at that point?

For dumb UB SnT we have a triggering creature + Wear/Reb on Omni or Priest for SneakShow

For all the other combo (storm, whatelse?) we have Flusterstorm and Snare.

[Dice_Box]

OK. Now that I am home and have access to my pc I have some things I would like to say:

Stop trolling one another. Before I posted above, I went and looked at dates around when the deck placed and saw there was no talk on it. Covering my bases. What I did notice was a large amount of talk from sockpuppet accounts all creating no benefit to this thread. The ones I saw I have banned. If I have missed any, feel free to report them. I also have my suspicions on who the players in that were. Note players, plural. While I will not act unilaterally against anyone, it is not my place as I am not an admin, I will act within my power against those who troll and bring this site down. Some of us have paid money for the upkeep of this place, some of us care a lot about the format and the infomation that can be found here. I am one of these people and I am proud that I can now serve the site in a higher capacity that I once could. I do not want, nor will I let others, bully or troll on this site as long as I can stop it.

For the record, the above list means I will be in here more often than normal, as I am now looking at playing around with a deck built on the core of what Miracles has to offer. I will not be clogging up the thread with questions and wasting everyones time as my deck diverges, but it will mean my eyes are in here more than they have been before. This I think is a benefit. Because if you exclude the B/R thread, this is the most complained about thread on the site. It is toxic at times, harsh for new people to break into and it can push away those seeking honest answers. If someone comes in here and asks a honest question I can understand the issues with people rolling their eyes at something that has been answered 40 times before. But there is a solution to that: Make a new Primer.

The current one was last updated in 2011. For a deck that sees so much love, so much attention and so much power in and over the format, your source for infomation and the guide to help new players is woefully out of date. So people will ask the same questions. Why? Because actually using the search bar on this site is hard and the primer does not answer many questions. Should I run more Mentor or Snapcasters? Thats something a primer should explain and why. So if you want people to stop asking the same questions over and over and you see yourselves as the gatekeepers of this deck, take it upon yourselves and fix the issues.

[icedagger]

@Dice_Box:

I remember someone posting a similar deck (Variation using crucible and wastelands) sometime back. I think the main point of criticism is that there are a lot of decks that have some way of reliably dealing with Crucible (eg: Grip, Decay).

It would be interesting to see what results you get with the deck; I run into 12 Post fairly regularly in my local meta so I'm wondering if this crucible variant might fare a bit better.

[Minniehajj]

OK. Now that I am home and have access to my pc I have some things I would like to say:

Stop trolling one another. Before I posted above, I went and looked at dates around when the deck placed and saw there was no talk on it. Covering my bases. What I did notice was a large amount of talk from sockpuppet accounts all creating no benefit to this thread. The ones I saw I have banned. If I have missed any, feel free to report them. I also have my suspicions on who the players in that were. Note players, plural. While I will not act unilaterally against anyone, it is not my place as I am not an admin, I will act within my power against those who troll and bring this site down. Some of us have paid money for the upkeep of this place, some of us care a lot about the format and the infomation that can be found here. I am one of these people and I am proud that I can now serve the site in a higher capacity that I once could. I do not want, nor will I let others, bully or troll on this site as long as I can stop it.

For the record, the above list means I will be in here more often than normal, as I am now looking at playing around with a deck built on the core of what Miracles has to offer. I will not be clogging up the thread with questions and wasting everyones time as my deck diverges, but it will mean my eyes are in here more than they have been before. This I think is a benefit. Because if you exclude the B/R thread, this is the most complained about thread on the site. It is toxic at times, harsh for new people to break into and it can push away those seeking honest answers. If someone comes in here and asks a honest question I can understand the issues with people rolling their eyes at something that has been answered 40 times before. But there is a solution to that: Make a new Primer.

The current one was last updated in 2011. For a deck that sees so much love, so much attention and so much power in and over the format, your source for infomation and the guide to help new players is woefully out of date. So people will ask the same questions. Why? Because actually using the search bar on this site is hard and the primer does not answer many questions. Should I run more Mentor or Snapcasters? Thats something a primer should explain and why. So if you want people to stop asking the same questions over and over and you see yourselves as the gatekeepers of this deck, take it upon yourselves and fix the issues.

I've been away from this forum because of the above reasons and I'm thankful that you stepped in to fix that. As for a new Primer, I am almost done with my rewrite and will be presenting it for review to the moderators within the next month. After GP Louisville, I'll have more time to finish it quickly. Thanks for all your hard work Dice_Box!

As for that list, it looks strong enough and ideas like it have been tried before, namely wasteland on its own, w/o Crucible. I don't think anyone else has tested that strategy out now, but there is certainly merit to it these days as it is a strong effects vs Eldrazi. The issue is that it does take up a lot of slots, and you can essentially create the same package w/ something liek Dwarven Blastminer, as Nicklas (ItIsUnfair) has tried once or twice. Feel free to give it a whirl and report back to us! I have my suspicions that you'll find it exceptionally strong vs matchups where nonbasic hate is exceptional (obviously =P) but overall a bit weaker vs what the metagame is today, in decks like DnT and combo, etc.

[Dice_Box]

Fair. The issue will be that I do not have a strong starting base with this deck to start with, so seeing it as weaker will not be an issue. I mean I play Stax right now, I play decks like that because I think they are fun, not because I think I have the best deck in the room. On the flip side, I know myself playing against Miracles before I have just thought "Well they are not going to touch my lands" and fetched out whatever I liked. Game two I don't, because Blood Moon is a thing, but gome one I drop the shields. The surprise factor (That of course would be lost playing in a local meta) if this works I think alone could win some games.

[twndomn]

OK. Now that I am home and have access to my pc I have some things I would like to say:

If someone comes in here and asks a honest question I can understand the issues with people rolling their eyes at something that has been answered 40 times before. But there is a solution to that: Make a new Primer.

The current one was last updated in 2011. For a deck that sees so much love, so much attention and so much power in and over the format, your source for infomation and the guide to help new players is woefully out of date. So people will ask the same questions. Why? Because actually using the search bar on this site is hard and the primer does not answer many questions. Should I run more Mentor or Snapcasters? Thats something a primer should explain and why. So if you want people to stop asking the same questions over and over and you see yourselves as the gatekeepers of this deck, take it upon yourselves and fix the issues.

There're plenty of articles about Miracles out there, primer for beginner, the best one has to be

http://www.mtgmintcard.com/articles/...-a-new-miracle

If that's not good enough because of the time it was written (though the principle holds true), Lossett did deck tech like... more than once, shown here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OmHYaupF4Q


That really should be enough for anyone from novice to intermediate level.

[TheArchitect]

@Dicebox

I think playing wasteland in miracles as a 2-3 of is a fine choice, but I don't think crucible is needed. It is a VERY slow card, and does nothing to help stabilize the game if we are at all behind. Probably 95% of situations where you COULD cast crucible, mentor would be more effective at closing the game.

Snapcaster and mentor are really strong in miracles because they can come out and do something relevant as early as turn 3. They play 2 roles: stabilize AND end the game. On snapcaster; I would sooner play 4 than playing only 2. Snapcaster is the best card in the deck in our grindy matchups where counterbalance is weak (death and taxes, GBx decks, stoneblade).

Karakas is a liability more than a help, in lists without MD legends. Even though miracles looks like it should not have a hard time casting its spells, it often DOES want to make UUU on turn 3 or UUUU on turn 4. Non-blue lands are much worse than they sound on paper.

Meddling mage is better than priest in the current meta. Reanimator and non-omni S&T decks are the only time priest is better. But mage is also useful against storm, lands, omnitell, and other random stuff. I personally just run 2 cliques as my only SB creatures.

[lordofthepit]

But there is a solution to that: Make a new Primer.

The current one was last updated in 2011. For a deck that sees so much love, so much attention and so much power in and over the format, your source for infomation and the guide to help new players is woefully out of date. So people will ask the same questions. Why? Because actually using the search bar on this site is hard and the primer does not answer many questions. Should I run more Mentor or Snapcasters? Thats something a primer should explain and why. So if you want people to stop asking the same questions over and over and you see yourselves as the gatekeepers of this deck, take it upon yourselves and fix the issues.

I thought there was a primer in the works? Did Einherjer have a draft written up before he quit Magic?

I agree that the primer needs an overhaul. The deck has been top tier since the Miracles mechanic got printed, and the primer somehow predates that and has no reference to the defining characteristic of this deck.

[CutthroatCasual]

Happy New Year! Whatever 2017 brings, let's hope this deck stays legal!

[Stevestamopz]

blah blah blah

Well you obviously missed the point of Dice's post completely. The point of the "source" is that it's the "source" of all legacy information. If it's all out there, why not just shut this site down then?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

[Removed]

Can't wait for the new primer; been a long time coming.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Dice_Box]

Last time I really looked at this deck, Ponder was not a card that saw play. When running a list like the one above, is cutting some amount of Ponder for more win conditions going to be an overall negative on the deck? I want to look at 3 Mentor, 2 Snapcaster at lest.

[hyp3r1on]

Last time I really looked at this deck, Ponder was not a card that saw play. When running a list like the one above, is cutting some amount of Ponder for more win conditions going to be an overall negative on the deck? I want to look at 3 Mentor, 2 Snapcaster at lest.

Ponder is an absolute core card in Miracles. It does everything you want; helps fixes your draws, helps you hit land drops and is very key shuffling mechanism in a tonne of spots. I'm not sure what you mean by cutting Ponders in favour of win conditions. For most lists, I believe it's a fundamental mistake not to be running 4 ponders. By shaving any number of them you will hurt the consistency of the deck and given that Miracles has plenty of clunky hands, you need that consistency. That said, I've been playing 3 Ponders for a while in my list, basically to have room for Engineered Explosives. I understand that I lose percentage points with consistency, but at the same time I want to not have a clean answer to things like Aether Vial and Chalice. I believe I'm a savvy/strong enough player at using the resources I have available to get through rougher hands with only 3 ponders at my disposal.

Joe runs 2 ponders at the moment and he will say that he doesn't need to run more Ponders than that because he runs more lands than most, so hitting land drops (one of the key uses for Ponder) isn't usually a problem for his deck. I also believe that he can get away with 2 ponders in his list is because he has enough stall cards like Vensers/Cliques, so it's easier for his deck to stall long enough to get himself out of clunky hands to put himself in a favourable position.

Are you still trying to make Crucible work in Miracles in your list? I think it's far, far better to have nonbasic hate in your sideboard than wreck your Miracles manabase with colourless Wastelands. It's more reasonable to maindeck a copy of Back to Basics or Blood Moon.

[twndomn]

Joe runs 2 ponders at the moment and he will say that he doesn't need to run more Ponders than that because he runs more lands than most, so hitting land drops (one of the key uses for Ponder) isn't usually a problem for his deck. I also believe that he can get away with 2 ponders in his list is because he has enough stall cards like Vensers/Cliques, so it's easier for his deck to stall long enough to get himself out of clunky hands to put himself in a favourable position.

It's interesting you brought up Joe's reasoning for running only 2 Ponders. Whether Venser/Cliques are stall cards is a separate discussion. I just want to point out that in GP NJ, Schönegger top-8 with 4 Ponders, Joe did not Day 2 with 0 Ponders. When he top-8 at Columbus on 2016, he ran 3 Ponders. Just saying.

[removed]

Well you obviously missed the point of Dice's post completely. The point of the "source" is that it's the "source" of all legacy information. If it's all out there, why not just shut this site down then?

That's not what I am saying. I am more concerned about the accuracy of the material. If there will be a new version of it, my hope is that the content won't go too far away from what Schönegger has written.

[hyp3r1on]

It's interesting you brought up Joe's reasoning for running only 2 Ponders. Whether Venser/Cliques are stall cards is a separate discussion. I just want to point out that in GP NJ, Schönegger top-8 with 4 Ponders, Joe did not Day 2 with 0 Ponders. When he top-8 at Columbus on 2016, he ran 3 Ponders. Just saying.

I don't think Joe's list was close to a good deck choice for GPNJ when people were maindecking Pyroblasts left, right and centre and spamming Treasure Cruises.

[Julian23]

The talk in this thread has become unbearable. About 80% of the reported posts The Source received over the last couple of weeks originated from the Miracles thread. They're either about the unacceptably condescending tone that seems to have become the norm for a couple of users, or about people off-topicly complaining about said behavior. Cut that out. I don't know why some of you are acting so hostile towards each other but our point is that we won't accept that kind of behavior anymore. If you think someone is wrong or lacks your experience, there's no point in being a dick about it. We're probably all grown ups, which means we know how to make an effort to not just give in to some people's desire to act like the "tough guy."

Most threads have users that are seemingly more experienced. In most threads, other users post in hopes of receiving replies from said users. In the Miracles thread instead, people post in hopes those users won't reply because tone of their answers will be hostile and condescending. This has nothing to do with being elitist. You can disagree with people without coming across as a dick. Nobody says you have to "be nice". Just don't act like you're getting a kick out of being needlessly condescending.

Ask yourself: do you want to be the poster people turn to for their advice? Or do you want to be the guy people actively shun and don't listen to? It's a shame if your advice and experiences go to waste because you lack the ability to communicate them in a non-hostile manner.

Regarding fake-accounts: we have connected several (several!) sockpuppet accounts with regular posters in this thread. Be aware that on top of having fake-accounts banned, if they posted anything warning- or banworthy, that punishment will also be applied to your main account.