I agree with Anti~American4621. Getting double colors at one point of the game has rarly been a problem for me. I will concede that it can be and often is very difficult vs. Various versions of Deadguy (Sinkhole, Vindicate, Wasteland, discard and now possibly small pox.) But Short from that one match-up, it is relativly easy to obtain double colors. You might have some trouble vs. Gobs (with 8x Ports/wates) but usually that just slows you down a couple turns . . . and you have such a great match-up vs. them anyways.
On the point of fetchlands, you really should save at least 1 (of the extra ones) for your brainstorms (as a shuffle effect). You can keep them in your hand as well as a bluff or cards to throw back with brainstorm.
Last edited by FallenOmnipotent; 10-30-2006 at 06:50 PM. Reason: Spelling
Team Drain Bamaged
What have we learned today? If you save your lands in your hand, and you draw a Brainstorm, your ensured better card quality.Originally Posted by FallenOmnipotent
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
I've been testing a new version. First, the decklist:
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Wee Dragonauts
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
4 Serum Visions
4 Predict
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Island
SB:
3 Control Magic
3 Naturalize
3 Stifle
3 Pyroclasm
3 REB/FTK/Needle/etc.
This version has been doing very well for me. In a Goblin/Gro/Solidarity meta, I even dare to say it is the best deck.
The Dragonauts may need some explanations. Although they might seem junky, they can grow very quickly because 34 cards in the deck are sorceries or instants. 7 to 11 point swings are not uncommon. They have nice synergy with the cantrips and direct damage and a very manageable cost at 1UR (they can also be pitched to Force, unlike BTS or Dragon).
The big advantage that UGR Gro has over its UGW cousin is the ability to quickly switch between control and aggro, and the Dragonauts really assist that strategy.
Another reason why I like this particular UGR version better is its improved cantrip base. With Magma Jet, you have 20 spells that can manipulate your library. Not only is this important for ensuring better card quality, but also card quantity because you have a very high chance of drawing 2 with Predict.
The versatility of the sideboard is another major selling point.
Control Magic is the hidden gem here, as it gives you a way to deal with big creatures, which are difficult to handle. It also trumps the mirror because it can steal Enforcers, Grunts and Werebears.
Stifle is useful in a lot of situations. Together with Pyroclasm, the post-board Goblin matchup should be favorable. The rest of the board should be obvious.
The last 3 slots can change depending on the meta.
I'm really interested in some good feedback!
Ive noticed for a long time that people say UGR thresh has a way weaker match-up against combo than UGW does due to ugw running mage. However, Ive ALSO noticed that there is a number of UGW thresh decks that haven't been running meddling mage at all. Just check out jesse hatfields' deck at the last duel for duals day one. He took second place and wasn't running any meddling mages main or side. I don't know if he got paired up against any combo that day but he must have felt confidant enough about his combo match ups not to run them. My main question is...do you think that ugr thresh has THAT much worse of a combo match up than ugw does or do you think regardless of ugw or ugr, the combo match can be won easily if you play the right counters at the right times?...I'm not saying I agree with one or the other but i'm just throwing the thought out there..what do you guys think?
Well, take this as you will, but Anti~American4621 says he finds the GUr Thresh vs. Solidarity match-up quite favorable. I, on the other hand, feel that if it's a good solidarity player, it's quite unfavorable. A big differance is that Anti~American4621 has played vs. Solidarity an uncountable amount of times (might be slightly exagerated); I have played against solidarity (with competant players) less than 10 times my whole life. (There aren't very many big profile 1.5 tournements over here in MN.) I've lost the majority of those times. However, let it be noted that I didn't play REBs back then (was trying out Hidden Mongoose).
I believe that the statement claiming UGr's Thresh's combo match-up to be A LOT worse than UGw is rather injust. It most likly incorporates less expiranced players (like me -- I'm not [necesserily] a bad player, but I have had very little encounters with combo...however, I am a bad speller).
Medling mage undoubtably helps vs. combo. But I guess it is being questioned as to whether it's needed or not (over kill? Too narrow? etc.) In the end, I think that R Thresh's combo match-up is worse than W's, but not way weaker.
In my opinion, Red's burn is a significantly weaker form of applying preasure. White potentially has mage which is both a defensive and offensive play. How ever, it's StPs become a dead card (but this should be too much of a problem. More often than not, you'll be able to shuffle it away with one of the cantrips/fetchlands.)
Edit: By Bongo's post above, apperantly he is having a relativly good time vs. solidarity too.
Team Drain Bamaged
I have a good winning percentage against combo because I pack 4 Stifles MD... Might not be too much of an addition, but with all the counterspells in the deck, it really tightens up the storm combo MU.
I also find it very valuable in the Goblins MU, especially knowing that they're not expecting it.
i like the idea of md stifle...I would probably play 3 if I did...one thing I was thinking about though was...Would I rather run 3 md stifle, or 3 md pithing needle? although pithing needle seems like the definate choice, stifle can stop combo and is also an instant speed spell (you can stop fetchlands, waste,etc and has the element of surprise) while needle is perminant, and stops cards, the opponent can play around it more...personally I think that running both would be way too much...what do you guys think is better? stifle vs needle?
non. Run 11 burn cards. Wanna see this deck's success? Ask Wastedlife, he won a Mox and Top 8ed a lotus tourney with the deck. It's still the same, agressive and hardly rusn out of fuel. Red Thresh isnt menat to be more aggressive, but rather a stronger efficientcy for aggro-metagames. In fact. it can also take down Solidarity if you know how to play it right. You can so easily win against a ton of decks without the help of Mage.
Anyways. Needle. Needles stop Vial from pumping guys out under the counter radar and abuse rediculous amounts of mana.
Stifle is good too. It beats Goblins, and whips IGG and some other stuff. It can also stop SoFI and Jitte triggers.
Heres his deck before he retired from UGR...
// Lands 17
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Island
// Creatures 10
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Fledgling Dragon
// Spells 33
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Predict
3 Daze
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Fire // Ice
// Sideboard 15
4 Pyroclasm
3 Flametongue Kavu
3 Krosan Grip/Naturalize
5 Open Slots.
12 Red Sources. You have more Burn + Dragon than Men.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
To get that thing out of the way once and for all, UGR's combo matchup isn't significantly worse than UGW's. What it lacks in Meddling Mages, it makes up in its quicker clock, better card selection to get counters and the Stifles/REBs in the board.
Now, I'd really like some intelligent conversation about my new version posted above.
What's your opinion on Wee Dragonauts?
Any suggestions?
To heat this thing up, I will make a broad statement: Right now, UGR Thresh is better than UGW.
This statement might be controversial, but that doesn't make it meaningful. Can you back it up with some elaboration?
This is the closest thing to a point you've made for UGR being better than UGW, and it also needs a lot more elaboration.
Please understand that I am not disagreeing with you, but that may change if you clarify your argument a little. I can certainly say I'm skeptical, since having no removal pretty much necessarily puts UGR in the hole against other Gro decks. Is UGR's Goblin matchup better enough to outweigh its UGW Gro matchup?
White has better sideboard options, more relevant removal, and Jotun Grunt. Grunt alone makes White better in my opinion.
I agree with him. White has more metagame answers and stronger win conditions, such as Mystic Enforcer, Jotun Grunt, Nantuko Monastery, and much more. It also has answers to certain aggro decks, like Tivadar's Crusade, Worship, Condemn, and Reprisal. Control answers are also quite revelent, such as Armageddon. Ray of Revelation is also quite good in this deck.
Red is only a metagame concern, but according to Wastedlife, Red has the exact momentum as White Pre-Board, but it's reach and velocity is much better. As for the deck Pre-Board, it's probably going to side in something like Stifles or something.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
Need to double post.
This is how you play against Solidarity.
1. Keep your mana open, and dont tap yourself out.
2. Predict on EOT, always. If your opponent is Remanding it, let it be.
3. Play men. You only need at most 2-3 men on the board. Exclude Dragon.
4. EOT, Cantrip, Burn, and/or set-up Predict.
5. Analyze their board position when they decide to go off,
i. If they have 5 or less lands, counter the first untap effect and counter eveything else. You dont want them having enough mana to do tricks with the stack.
ii. If they have a lot of Lands, just Counter their meditates or something. Even their untap effect wouldn't be a bad play. Make sure they cant Turnabout you, or else your screwed. If they do, hopefully you can Burn them in resp to that with some last few points of damage before your opponent goes off, but that's rare.
But one problem I do have is that with the lack of Portent, it's much harder for me to find counters, and Burn is more of a give/take situation on how you want to use your cantrips.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
Just as a note, I saw a post a few back discussing control magic. While I'm not entirely sure I like that card in this deck, if other people like it, wouldn't treachery be worth a look? Five is more than four, yes, but you get to untap and have counter/burn backup after you steal their best creature. Thoughts?
I summed that up for you. Kinda funny.
I think Stifle would best be used as LD, your best chance is to race them. Get a turn one or two critter, get it thresh and dig for burn burn burn.
I know some germans have been playing Hidden Gibbons in the sideboard to help out.
Now playing real formats.
And Stifle would disable them from a Shuffle effect, meaning that they will draw squat from their Brainstorms. Also, it would make the first two cards from their Meditates horrid.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
And Stifle would disable them from a Shuffle effect, meaning that they will draw squat from their Brainstorms. Also, it would make the first two cards from their Meditates horrid. That wouldn't be a bad idea, but you have a favorable match-up against them already, however, Needle is very good against Salvagers, Goblins, Angel Stompy, decent versus Faerie Stompy, and some more random decks.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
1) UGR is stronger than UGW against Goblins and aggro. This is huge because the metagame right now (or at least the metagame as I see it) is still aggro-based.
I've played with UGW against Goblins, and I don't think it is favorable. The Tivadar's Crusade's in the board prove this. In game 1, UGR has a better chance, and in sideboarded games it is favorable (3 Pyroclasm and 3 Stifle).
UGW only has Swords for in-game removal, which I often found to be not enough.
There is also an interesting tactical twist in sideboarded games with UGR - aggro tends to slowplay because they don't want to trade Xfor1 into a Pyroclasm. Against UGW, I usually put out as much threats as possible, since I only have to worry about Swords and there is no mass removal.
2) UGR has the better cantrip base.
Assuming one doesn't use Mental Note (which I think is subpar), you have:
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
4 Serum Visions
4 Predict
4 Magma Jet
to manipulate your library, which is more than any other Gro list I know of. Library manipulation is the heart and soul of this deck, ensuring better card quality. With my cantrip base, you almost always name the right card with Predict, ensuring card quantity to keep up the pressure.
3) UGR can switch better between roles.
Because the white options in general are very defensive, UGW has to rely on its creatures for offense.
Now, UGR is a lot more flexible, since burn can be used defensively and offensively.
Burn offers a way to win outside of combat damage. This is very important in a stalemate on the board and against control decks when you need to get through those last points.
Wee Dragonauts also helps in this regard, as it is cheap and synergistic with the cantrip and burn spells. It's also a threat with flying that is not affected by graveyard hate and can be pitched to Force.
Not only does Burn offer more flexibility, it also speeds up the clock.
These are the 3 main reasons why I think UGR is better than UGW in the current metagame.
The only "weakness" which is often criticized is the pseudo-mirror against UGW. If that is the only bad matchup for UGR, I'll accept that, because right now, UGW has more bad matchups, of which the Goblin matchup is the most significant. I'd like to go more in-depth, though:
Game 1, UGR is the underdog because of Swords. The proper role here is aggro, because you don't want UGW to draw into Swords. Force them into the defensive with beats & burn and refill with Predict.
Actually, I like my chances against Mental Note builds, since it is very likely that I end up with better card quality (and quantity in case they don't run Predict), which can help to negate the impact of Swords.
Now, the sideboarded games get more interesting. White often sides in additional copies of Enforcer and Jotun Grunts. I side in Control Magic and FTK, which trump those UGW's board plan because they're essentially 2for1 that deal with the opponents sideboard strategy, too.
The only card in UGW that is hard to answer is Monastery. Because sideboards vary wildly, this is hard to predict. But so far, I've had good results with the Control Magic/FTK plan.
I hope this explains why I think UGR is better than UGW right now.
I don't think it's fair to say red is stronger against aggro in general. What aggro are you talking about specifically? I'd much rather have white against Angel Stompy, for example. And without Pithing Needle, I'm not even sure your build would be better against Goblins.
This has very little to do with the deck being red. One could easily play2) UGR has the better cantrip base.
Assuming one doesn't use Mental Note (which I think is subpar), you have:
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
4 Serum Visions
4 Predict
4 Magma Jet
to manipulate your library, which is more than any other Gro list I know of.
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Predict
...or something like that.
This point is debatable, and if it's true, I don't think it makes enough of an impact to be a major issue. The vast majority of times burn goes to the head are when there are no creatures on the board it can kill. That means either an empty board (in which case you were free to go on the offensive anyway and I doubt the 2-3 damage helped significantly) or a board with creatures you can't kill (in which case you may in fact have to leave creatures back to block, rather than attack with them). There are actually some situations where having StP would make it easier for you to switch roles by removing a potential blocker that burn wouldn't kill.
3) UGR can switch better between roles.
Because the white options in general are very defensive, UGW has to rely on its creatures for offense.
No, the weakness is generally worse removal, which manifests itself primarily in the mirror but in other matchups as well. There are a good amount of creatures in this format that don't die to red removal. None of them are as popular as the mirror, of course, but they can add up.The only "weakness" which is often criticized is the pseudo-mirror against UGW.
Well Sleight of Hand doesnt deal 2 damage. And it sucks. Bongo have you considered Lavadart for its Dragonaut awsomeness?
Now playing real formats.
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