[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

[Manipulato]

This will be my starting 60 when Push releases I believe:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 True Name Nemesis
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Leovold

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
3 Hymn to Tourach

1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacomb
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland


I think Push will give this deck what it needs to be the best Delver deck in the format, and I think BUG will become the best 3 color combination as well. Fatal Push gives us that one mana answer against so many threats that are annoying. I know when I play against Jund last week and lost 2-0, Push would have been fantastic. Bob, Goyf, Shaman, etc.

I do think completely cutting Goyf is correct. Once Push is seeing play in every black deck, True Name, Gurmag, and probably Tombstalker will all see their stock rise substantially.

Hi,

I think your list is far from optimal (Especially the manabase). With 4 TNN MD which cost UU and so many BB spells at the same time in the deck you will have huge problems to cast your stuff in time especially with the 2 Bayou in the manabase. Pressuring yourself to constantly be able to produce BB & UU with 2 Bayou and 2 Tropical is not needed. Sure 1 Sea 1 Trop 1 Bayou gets there but 1 Wasteland destroys you then, not where I want to be...

I think there are 2 ways:
1. Cut the BB spells from the MD and play just Sea + Trop along with 4 TNN (3/3 split or 3/2/1 for example).
2. Cut the TNN´s and add Tarmogoyf to relieve your MB.

A mixture of both is unconsistent and risky, believe me, I played the tapout Version over 2 years. I know that Reid´s list with 4 TNN inspire some people to go more into that route but his manabase is completly different, +4 mana dudes +1 land and no bb spells in the deck, completely different story.

If you really want to cut Goyf entirely because of the fatal push hype I highly recommend you Reid´s TNN BUG or 4c Delver Friedman list which I also play.

I also dont think Goyf is really great atm and will not be that great when FP gets released but he´s still the best thread vs unfair decks or burn and so on...TNN is great where Goyf sucks but Goyf is great where TNN sucks, means the choices are very meta dependant.

[Hrothgar]

As always, i totally agree Manipulato's post.
TNN is a great card, not broken, who require a totally different manabase.
We can see the Duke's manabase, who support non BB spells.
By the way..i don't know if the next way for TA is a tapout or a pure Tempo style.
I suppose that we are many player with Fatal Push fear...but Tarmo is simply the best green creature and is a must in a tempo shell.
For now I try a Delver/Tarmo/Stifle/Pierce/Push/Abrupt/Seize version, with a very Clear Tempo plan: this maybe is not the better version (no Hymn, no Liliana) but the Push make our Tempo version better than older.

[blablub]

As always, i totally agree Manipulato's post.
TNN is a great card, not broken, who require a totally different manabase.
We can see the Duke's manabase, who support non BB spells.
By the way..i don't know if the next way for TA is a tapout or a pure Tempo style.
I suppose that we are many player with Fatal Push fear...but Tarmo is simply the best green creature and is a must in a tempo shell.
For now I try a Delver/Tarmo/Stifle/Pierce/Push/Abrupt/Seize version, with a very Clear Tempo plan: this maybe is not the better version (no Hymn, no Liliana) but the Push make our Tempo version better than older.

Sorry man but if you wanna play Thoughtseize and Stifle in the same Maindeck, you dont understand what a Tempodeck wants to do.

[Hrothgar]

lol obv Seize is not a maindeck card, i have report this card to specify that i don't play Hymn in my 75, but i bring the tempo plan in g2, without tapping in my turn.
By the way maybe my post is not clear and i agree with you.

[Nikedemos]

Hi to all!
this is my list, i prepare that for the eternal week end in Paris.

MAIN:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Balefull Strix

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Stifle
3 Hymn to Tourach

1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Verdant Catacomb
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

SIDE:
2 Golgari Charm
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical
1 Dread of night
1 Flusterstorm
1 Fatal Push
1 Leovold
1 Vendilion
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Dismember

Im not secure that its the best list.
i suppose that in Paris tournament i will found more delver deck so... a lot of push(i think...), than is better 4 tarmogoyf or another creature(TNN, gurmag)??
What do you think?

[blablub]

lol obv Seize is not a maindeck card, i have report this card to specify that i don't play Hymn in my 75, but i bring the tempo plan in g2, without tapping in my turn.
By the way maybe my post is not clear and i agree with you.

i dont wanna offend you, sorry for that. But i wouldn't play discard, even in the SB unless i predict that combo is the most played deck.
By the Way i wanna play the same deck as you when Push comes out. Basicly Canadian Thresh with Black instead of Red.

The problem is Goyf. Now all the Midrangedecks can play Push too, so they trade tempo positive with you. I'm not sure if the DRS, Goyf, Delver Suite is the correct creature-base anymore. If i think about Shardless who kill your Goyf with a 1 Mana-Spell, or Grixis Delver who kills ur Goyf for 1 Mana and gets a token, it makes me sad.

While it looks like that Eldrazi is on a decline, maybe its time bring back Mongooses :)

[Manipulato]

i dont wanna offend you, sorry for that. But i wouldn't play discard, even in the SB unless i predict that combo is the most played deck.
By the Way i wanna play the same deck as you when Push comes out. Basicly Canadian Thresh with Black instead of Red.

The problem is Goyf. Now all the Midrangedecks can play Push too, so they trade tempo positive with you. I'm not sure if the DRS, Goyf, Delver Suite is the correct creature-base anymore. If i think about Shardless who kill your Goyf with a 1 Mana-Spell, or Grixis Delver who kills ur Goyf for 1 Mana and gets a token, it makes me sad.

While it looks like that Eldrazi is on a decline, maybe its time bring back Mongooses :)

Agree, I have the same doubts about Goyf for the exact same reason...It´s not just Push, after Reid´s win more TNN´s will be played (TNN also got more popular before his win) which are troublesome for Goyf, DnT is also a Tier 1 deck atm where Goyf sucks too...But time will show, lets wait and see how the meta evolves, maybe we all overhype push a bit...

[Manipulato]

Hi to all!
this is my list, i prepare that for the eternal week end in Paris.

MAIN:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Balefull Strix

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Stifle
3 Hymn to Tourach

1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Verdant Catacomb
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

SIDE:
2 Golgari Charm
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical
1 Dread of night
1 Flusterstorm
1 Fatal Push
1 Leovold
1 Vendilion
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Dismember

Im not secure that its the best list.
i suppose that in Paris tournament i will found more delver deck so... a lot of push(i think...), than is better 4 tarmogoyf or another creature(TNN, gurmag)??
What do you think?

Hi,
well mixing together two completely different archetypes of BUG Delver is not good if you ask me (Hymn+Stifle MD). Both cards have a totaly different goal in a game and are very antisynergistic! You should think about the gameplan you want to have. Hymn belongs in the tapout version aka Team America, Stifle belongs in a straight tempo shell called BUG Delver.
Your manabase is also problematic, 18 lands is fine if you dont play Lili and Hymn but in a more cc2/cc3 heavy list I would go up to 19/20 lands. The 2 Bayou in your list makes the 18 lands also way worse because 1 Wasteland can cripple your manabase, sure you have stifle but not a open mana to cast it especially not off Bayou.

If you have both cards in hand (Hymn+Stifle) you always have trouble what to play, tapout for hymn means stifle is dead, keeping one mana open for a potential stifle makes hymn way slower and weak, see the problem?

Also if your manadenial plan with Stifle, Wasteland, Daze was succesfull and you screwed down your oponent to 1 land for example why discarding him away 2 random cards he cant cast anyways, it makes no sense, pierce would be way better here for instance.

I know that These kind of lists exist and they´re still good in a combo heaby meta but it´s far away from optimal and I personally never ever would play such a list.

[Nikedemos]

Hi,
well mixing together two completely different archetypes of BUG Delver is not good if you ask me (Hymn+Stifle MD). Both cards have a totaly different goal in a game and are very antisynergistic! You should think about the gameplan you want to have. Hymn belongs in the tapout version aka Team America, Stifle belongs in a straight tempo shell called BUG Delver.
Your manabase is also problematic, 18 lands is fine if you dont play Lili and Hymn but in a more cc2/cc3 heavy list I would go up to 19/20 lands. The 2 Bayou in your list makes the 18 lands also way worse because 1 Wasteland can cripple your manabase, sure you have stifle but not a open mana to cast it especially not off Bayou.

If you have both cards in hand (Hymn+Stifle) you always have trouble what to play, tapout for hymn means stifle is dead, keeping one mana open for a potential stifle makes hymn way slower and weak, see the problem?

Also if your manadenial plan with Stifle, Wasteland, Daze was succesfull and you screwed down your oponent to 1 land for example why discarding him away 2 random cards he cant cast anyways, it makes no sense, pierce would be way better here for instance.

I know that These kind of lists exist and they´re still good in a combo heaby meta but it´s far away from optimal and I personally never ever would play such a list.

so... if i would take off the 3 hymn what can i put in Main? and if i cut 4 stifle off ?

Thanks for Helping!

[Whitefaces]

so... if i would take off the 3 hymn what can i put in Main? and if i cut 4 stifle off ?

Thanks for Helping!

I'd recommend the lists from malimujo online, he wins a lot with it and it's no doubt what Brad Nelson and Michael Majors took inspiration from for GP Louisville.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/541842

[Manipulato]

so... if i would take off the 3 hymn what can i put in Main? and if i cut 4 stifle off ?

Thanks for Helping!

If you cut the Hymn you can add Spell Pierce for example, I would cut the Strixes then aswell and would replace them with 2 Gurmag Angler probably to push the tempo play even more, the 2 Bayous should get the cut then too, replacing them with fetches. If you cut Stifle you can just play the traditional Team America list, such lists can be found in the Top 8 of GP Louisville piloted by Michael Majors for instance.

[Nikedemos]

If you cut the Hymn you can add Spell Pierce for example, I would cut the Strixes then aswell and would replace them with 2 Gurmag Angler probably to push the tempo play even more, the 2 Bayous should get the cut then too, replacing them with fetches. If you cut Stifle you can just play the traditional Team America list, such lists can be found in the Top 8 of GP Louisville piloted by Michael Majors for instance.

OK, you convinced me.
today i have a FNM and i will play TEAM AMERICA, the list of Michael Majors...
will let you know how it goes.
Thanks!!!

"I want to play Delver but I do not know what version... :-("

[Ayiluss]

I don't what would you play instead of Goyf if he becomes so bad due to Fatal Push. For example TNN is good against fair decks but too slow against combo to make a cut imo (at least as a 4 of) unless your metagame is combo free.

[btm10]

OK, you convinced me.
today i have a FNM and i will play TEAM AMERICA, the list of Michael Majors...
will let you know how it goes.
Thanks!!!

"I want to play Delver but I do not know what version... :-("

The best advice for a new player to Delver is just pick a version and learn it. They all have distinct advantages and disadvantages and a lot of your early success is going to come from intuitively understanding what the deck is doing. RUG is the most straightforward in terms of game plan (other than Ur, which is much more of an aggro deck than a tempo or aggro-control deck): you keep the game from developing and kill your opponent before they can implement their game plan. Grixis tries to achieve something similar, but relies on achieving a difficult-to-answer board position but is better if the opponent gets going because it's threats are more flexible and require a wider range of answers and Grixis plays a wider range of interactive cards itself. 4c and BUG are thr most capable of grinding, though each approaches that term differently. 4c seeks to trade cards basically forever, like a midrange deck would, but relies on Snapcaster, Leovold, and TNN to present a wide range of threats that all fruatrate opponents' ability to answer them while having piles and piles of interaction. BUG (the Hymn version) plays (sort of) like backwards RUG. You want to spend the early game consuming all of your opponent's resources: Hymn them, Daze aggressively, Decay their threats, etc. Only once your opponent is constrained on mana or topdecking do you pivot and try to become truly aggressive in most matchups. You're seldom forced to race (though you usually can if you want to) because BUG pivots quite well between being the beatdown and the control. This doesn't mean that you don't operate as the beatdown when the opportunity presents itself early: if you have turn 1 Delver into Wasteland+ Daze or Deathrite into Hymn+Delver, then you absolutely take those lines, you just aren't forced into a plan that narrow, and you generally aren't losing tons of ground to an opponent who removes a threat or two. Once their resources are exhausted you'll be able to eventually stick something that they simply can't answer and probably beat them with it.

As for Push making Tarmogoyf worse: I guess? Sort of? It makes creatures in general worse, except Eldrazi (which it seems everyone has correctly identified aren't actually that good), TNN, and Delve creatures. We get to run the most powerful Delve creature already, and otherwise it hits the other Delver decks in a similar way. I'd be more interested in adding Leovold against removal-heavy decks than I would be in cutting Goyfs.

[KobeBryan]

I don't what would you play instead of Goyf if he becomes so bad due to Fatal Push. For example TNN is good against fair decks but too slow against combo to make a cut imo (at least as a 4 of) unless your metagame is combo free.

It dies to removal is not a reason to say that card is no good

[Ayiluss]

It dies to removal is not a reason to say that card is no good

This is exactly what I want to say. There were some people who were suggesting cutting Goyf (this is the feeling I got at least) but I still think it's one of the best creatures and I wouldn't cut it. It has great ration between cost and power and thus provides fast clock which is especially good against combo decks.

[Manipulato]

This is exactly what I want to say. There were some people who were suggesting cutting Goyf (this is the feeling I got at least) but I still think it's one of the best creatures and I wouldn't cut it. It has great ration between cost and power and thus provides fast clock which is especially good against combo decks.

The "It dies to removal " argument is not the main thing I dont like about goyf atm because this argument alone is quite dumb and true for 80-90% of all creatures in legacy, I agree with you to 100%. Goyf is of course much better vs unfair decks than TNN or Angler, no doubt about it but my problem with him atm is that he even struggles in combat vs creature based decks like DnT, Elves or Maverick for example just because of his lack of abilities like flying, unblockable, protection or whatever.

Mother of Runes, Mirran Crusader, Thalia + Karakas, RIP, Quirion Ranger + Dryad Arbor, Wirewood Symbiote + any dude, Deathrite Shaman + any untap dude, Scavenging Ooze, TNN, Anglers in the delver mirror, Knights, Smasher without a artifact in the GY all beat Tarmogoyf in the ass, even YP token or Lingering Souls can chump him long enough to win ...
I was very unhappy with him outside of combo MU's lately. Things like Fatal Push, Swords, Dismember & AD are just the cherry on the cake for me.

One good point in the Top 32 lists from the gp is that 2 Liliana MD + 2 Dead Weight SB can grow the Tarmogoyf to a 5/6 - 6/7 so he can eat oposing Smashers & Anglers.

I think goyf is quite a meta choice atm. In a combo heavy meta he's the best possible choice but in a more fair meta with lots of Miracles, DnT, Elves whatever TNN is the way to go right now.

[btm10]

I think goyf is quite a meta choice atm. In a combo heavy meta he's the best possible choice but in a more fair meta with lots of Miracles, DnT, Elves whatever TNN is the way to go right now.

I think a 1-of TNN is fine now, but 1-2 Leovold is more where I want to be with 3 CMC creatures in the general meta. Do you really want to take the time to Jitte up TNN against Elves and D&T? 4c is better set up to play that game because it has more spot removal, but getting to TNN mana seems too slow for BUG against Elves and would require dropping our potent BB spells against D&T, which is the one matchup where the stress of hitting UUBB is at its greatest. In every other fair matchup I'd rather have Tarmogoyf than TNN. Maybe Fatal Push opens up UB Delver as a viable alternative to BUG or Grixis, but then we're talking about a totally different deck.

[Hrothgar]

Well, i agree with you guys about the fear of Fatal on Tarmo, by the way i suppose that we need to wait for the meta evolution of the next 3/4 weeks to take new stuff about the evolution.
Obv the Push is strong and Tarmo suffer it.

For now i continue to test the Malimujo list and i have a question for the Team America community: have you bring into the 15's 1/2 Jace the Mind Sculptor? You have good experience with Jace into TA?
I have test for many times my 19's lands list but now, with this list who brings 20 lands, Jace is a good threat.
Suggestion?

[Nikedemos]

I'd recommend the lists from malimujo online, he wins a lot with it and it's no doubt what Brad Nelson and Michael Majors took inspiration from for GP Louisville.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/541842

FNM Legacy, 12 Players.

T1: Eldrazi, I win easy, but i know that the mach up is not easy, i G1 and G2 i started very fast with delver and tourach with the protection of daze and force.

T2: Show and tell, I win, in G1 i have started with shaman and he dont found combo so i found tourach and i play delver and i win. In G2 i started land shaman, he do land ponder so i do land shaman, and he.play ancientTomb and cast blood moon i have 2 shaman and 2 lad in graveyard i dont found creature so... i attack with shamans each turn, i draw only fetch and he loose because dont found the combo.

T3: D&T, 1 to 1, i win the first easy with delver and 2 of my decay do good its job on his tapped moms. the second he win because have the best stat of D&T, the 3° i side in more cards, spot removal and big removal i cut off my counter because i want to play the match with more removal, he is at 7 and i am at 18 and.... the time is finish.

T3: D&T, I win this match is very long but i win 2 to 1.

I finish the FMN in second position for rating. I very happy for the deck i like it! :-) and i have see that this deck in late game its very hard to win versus all deck, what you could be done to improve??

i think i take this for eternal week end in paris... with the knowledge that I will find many more Delver deck and many Fatal push :-(

See you!
Nicodemo.