Do you mind sharing your list? I really can't figure out how to squeeze in both RIP/Helm and Doomwake to the maindeck without cutting other important stuff.Originally Posted by Megadeus
I'd like to try 3 RIP + 1 Helm and 2 Doomwake Giant (+2 Bayou?) in the maindeck, but I don't know where to make the cut. Do you have any suggestions reg my current list?
I also appreciate some sideboard help since I am new to the deck. (Especially black sideboard options if I include Dookwake + Bayou in the maindeck)
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
2 Banishing Light
4 Elephant Grass
2 Solitary Confinement
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Savannah
3 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
11 Forest
1 Plains
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Rest in Peace
3 Suppression Field
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Nevermore
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 City of Solitude
SB: 1 Suppression Field
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Seal of Primordium
SB: 3 Swords to Plowshares
My fear with Doomwake is that - while it seems awesome vs. Delver and DnT - DnT can easily cut us off the black mana for Doomwake and Delver can still counter it. Do you think Doomwake is worth opening the manabase up for opposing wastelands because of Bayou?
Are there any mainboard options vs. creature decks other than Elephant Grass / Solitary Confinement? I sometimes can't hold Elephant Grass for long enough and don't get the draw engine going for Solitary Confinement.
Minus Sigil + Doomwake. I have Sterling Grove over field which helps find doomwake too. Field is really good against DnT though. Don't know if you need it plus doomwake
RE the BUG menace: going through some >3-4 year old decklists, I found some that sided 2 Spiritual Focus. Could this be some tech to helm improve the matchup against Hymn-Lili decks?
On the draw it won't stop a turn 2 Hymn, but it's very good against Liliana, and even not that bad against Leovold in case they have both online - as 99% of discard is sorcery speed, allowing us to still draw 1 extra card that turn.
Then again it does nothing if your opponent chooses not to play their Hymn and BS-shuffle it back, I guess that's still okay but it may just be sitting there on the battlefield doing nothing many games - or be an abysmal topdeck if they already T1 Thoughtseize T2 Hymned you.
I'd rather be able to stand up fetchlands and filter with Guile and activate Sterling Grove than play a mana denial card in a deck with no other mana denial. I'm not sure why anybody plays field in this deck. It's bad. Stony Silence and Dread of Night + CoS do fine against D&T but it's hard to beat their nut hand on the draw.
You're playing 4 Leyline. The LotV discard a card can be bad if it hits really fast, but if you have an Enchantress effect it should hurt them more. Sideboarded Rest in Peace can cripple their faster DRS draws. Leovold is a different story, he's an epic fisting and the reason I can't imagine Enchantress ever winning anything of consequence. Banishing Light is ok, since the card draw happens after resolution. Assuming you have Grove it's a decent solution. But some insane opener like DRS Go, Untap Leovold seems unbeatable on the draw.
Field definitely isn't bad. In combination with elephant grass it slows our opponent to a crawl, forcing them to decide every turn between attacking, advancing their board state, or activating an ability. Against DnT suppression field serves much the same function as city of solitude and stony silence combined, and unlike those cards it's still good in multiples.
I recommend trying the card, because it is insanely good at what it does.
I've played it. It can be good at times, but you lose Grove and you cut on fetches which kind of sucks. I've found that too often it does nothing. I like playing it because I enjoy making my opponent miserable, but I don't think it's overly amazing at the moment
In this deck. It's bad. I want fetches and I want Demonic Tutor + Shroud everything.
I don't need to try the card because I've cast suppression field more then everyone on this board cubed. It's a prison card, enchantress is not a prison or resource denial deck. It's the worlds slowest combo deck.
Euhm, what?? I think you have it the other way around. We're a prison deck with a combo integrated. Grass, Confinement, RiP & Field all serve to deny the opponent his gameplan. We have a combo finish due to all the carddraw and interaction, but saying that we're not a prison deck is something I can't get behind.
Sure there's some prison elements to the deck, but in the end none of your cards do anything if you don't establish the engine like in a combo deck.
I am NOT an enchantress player, but after playing against it for like 10 years I feel entitled to ask:
If you are worried about discard strategies, why not run more sterling Grove and replenish? Grove stops the decays and combos with replenish, replenish gets back your graveyard so basically it's a tremendous tempo shift if they've thoughtseized and hymned you, and enchantments can't be targeted by Deathrite (except, obviously, eidolon).
Regarding the suppression field discussion, I think calling it bad or good is sort of useless, right? Isnt it meta specific?
Field is something one would play in a meta littered with lands or miracles or dnt, I would think.
Finally, if leovold is a thing now. Do you sideboard extra doomwake or sigil? May seem like a weird comparison, but ANT plays extra tendrils in the board because versus miracles they shift to a more "fair" gameplan and cast multiple Tendrils over the course of the game. Maybe you could do the same with sigil / doomwake?
Anyway, I love enchantress even though I've never played it and up until leovold was printed I was sure it didn't see great results because it was underrepresented. Leovold... we will have to see how that plays out.
I think you have it the wrong way. Enchantress is a combo deck, the combo is an enchantress effect and ~20 of the most unplayable cards in Eternal. It's momentum / engine combo, the deck is filled with otherwise unplayable cards that become playable because they become cantrips. This forms the engine, many of them are +mana bad cards or at least mana neutral. This engine allows you to build a board presence and create enough permanents to win the game (Angels, Shrouded Doomwakes, Bears, Emrakul, RIP/Helm Combo). Grass isn't a Prison card, Confinement isn't a prison card, they are defensive cards, but not prison cards. Suppression Field is more of a Prison card, and putting it in a deck with no real other prison elements or a prison end game isn't great. Especially at the cost of the fetch, Guile interaction, and Demonic Tutor.
Here are some prison cards for you to explore as you expand your Magic horizons
Wasteland
Port
Thalia
Other Thalia
Sphere of Resistance
Null Rod
Stony Silence
Winter Orb
Thorn of Amethyst
Nether Void
Armageddon
Sanctum Prelate
Trinisphere
Chalice of the Void
Crucible of Worlds
Smokestack
Blood Moon
Ethersworn Canonist
Leonin Arbiter
they all in one way or the other deny the opponent resources or the ability to play the game on some axis
Rest in Peace could be part of a Prison strategy, Suppression Field is a prison card as well.
“Enchantress” is a deck with multiple personalities. There are versions that are more pure combo [UG Enchantress, GB Cadaverous Bloom] , and versions that are more prison [traditional GW], and there are versions that straddle between the two realms [GW Helm].
This conversation is really about which path GW should take, and personally without perfect information on the expected meta I don’t think there is a perfect answer.
GW Helm was developed on the concept that card selection and card draw was valued over card tutoring because it keeps better game tempo. This was so it could compete in a meta (at the time of development) that was dominated by tempo RUG Delver. The solution was effective. Therefore, at that time in development of GW Helm Sterling Grove was abandoned.
Then I piloted GW Helm in Orlando and started out 5-0 to finish poorly. I got beat by a strange version on Miracles with Mindbreak trap and Serenity, and tied and was beat by D&T. So we came back to retool the deck to beat those strats. That is when Suppression Field was adopted and was a huge success. I personally would be hesitant to remove it in the style and and the manner in which GW helm was developed for play. GW helm was the first GW version of Enchantress to adopt Green Sun’s Zentih This allowed the engine to more reliably be turned on without the support of Sterling Grove. This was again to improve tempo.
The adoption of GSZ, however, put GW helm in a more weak position against board wipes and edict effects. Board wipes tend to be a wash because the card draw over powers the wipe. Edicts when paired with Abrupt Decay, and Discard can be troublesome, and obviously Sterling would perform better here. The issue is in my personally experience of playing both traditional GW and GW helm, GW helm does better over the meta. Could this overall strategy be revisited? Yes, but if done correctly you will end up likely with either GW Helm, or Traditional GW if all those card selectins were made correctly in the first place. This is unless going completely divergent into something like GW Opal-wave in the N&D thread.
Overall, What I want to say is I don’t think anyone fighting for their position / cards are wrong. I do think the conversation isn’t framed correctly. Yet, overall the conversation is good. I think we should talk about certain cards in certain decks to combat certain metas or decks. I’m not sure we all understand those contexts today.
PS Leovold alone is not an issue. It's Leovold and the specific decks it promotes.
PPS BR Reanimator is a much bigger issue.
I'm also most interested in real results though (not ones weekly casual FNM 3-1 finish), so the actual math over the last 12 months on some of the discussed cards. Admittedly the meta has already changed a lot over the last 1-2 months, with Eldrazi and Miracles having lost like 50% of their MTGTop8 share compared to half a year ago, and DnT also being on the retreat again it seems. So these may not say much about the BUGgy future ahead, we'll see.
To make it easy on myself I'll just take all decklists of the last 12 months off MTGTop8.com, and add the 2 Hatfield brothers' decklist who made 31th in SCG Balt and day 2 in GP Louie for being such a strong finish (and more than comparable finish to someone top-8ing a 50 person tourney).
It may be unfair that some events don't get published on that site but so be it
Wincon:
Emrakul: 100%
Sigil: 80%
(70% maindeck, 10% sideboard)
Doomwake Giant: 50%
(40% with 2 copies, 10% with 1 copy)
Rip-Helm: 50%
(30% maindeck, 20% sideboard)
Sterling Grove total:
3 copies: 30%
2 copies: 30%
1 copy: 20%
0 copies: 20%
Sterling Grove maindeck:
3 copies: 20%
2 copies: 20%
1 copy: 20%
0 copies: 40%
Suppression Field:
2 copies: 20%
(10% 2 copies maindeck, 10% 2 copies sideboard)
1 copy: 20%
(10% maindeck, 10% sideboard)
0 copies: 60%
Most apparent trends imho:
-you should play Emrakul
-you should most likely play Sigil too
-Doomwake seems favoured over Helm maindeck (50% vs 30%) and 2 is the golden number; Rip-Helm is still added as part of a Rip/Leyline package post-SB in some succesful Doomwake builds.
-the sweet spot seems to be around 2 Sterling Groves currently, but if playing more adding some to the SB may be considered. Avg copies 1.7 (1.2 MD 0.5 SB)
-Suppression Field hasn't had many good finishes yet, only 2/10 decks playing it maindeck. Including SB spots that goes up to 4/10, so it seems mostly good situationally as a 1-2-off SB card (Miracles, Lands, DnT only in my experience - against other decks it's as often "Surprise, I win T2 against your DRS + hands full'a fetches!" as "Doesn't do anything, I lose!") but not worth a maindeck spot unless the meta is littered with the aforementioned decks.
(these meaningless "conclusions" are of course only for these working on the current iterations of the deck - if one thinks a completely new direction should be taken like Opalescence+Parallax Wave or w/e of course past statistics won't mean a damn thang)
For Funzies I've also compiled an excel just to see what the average of those decklists would look like.
Split up by version (Junk Doomwake or GW Helm), these are the average builds:
(based off the same 'last 12 months >40 people' off MtgTop8 + the SCG Open/GP day 2 lists)
Average Junk Doomwake deck would look like this:
10,4 creatures
4,0 Argothian Enchantress
3,4 Green Sun’s Zenith
1,8 Doomwake Giant
1,0 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
0,2 Eidolon of Blossoms
20,2 lands
5,4 Forest
4,0 Windswept Heath
3,2 Serra’s Sanctum
2,8 Other green fetch
1,8 Bayou
1,2 Savannah
1,0 Plains
0,6 Karakas
0,2 Dryad Arbor
29,4 enchantments
4,0 Enchantress’s Presence
4,0 Wild Growth
4,0 Utopia Sprawl
3,6 Elephant Grass
2,6 Mirri’s Guile
2,4 Solitary Confinement
2,0 Carpet of Flowers
1,8 Sterling Grove
1,0 Banishing Light/Oblivion Ring
1,0 Sigil of the Empty Throne
0,8 Sphere of Safety
0,6 Sensei’s Divining Top
0,4 Enlightened Tutor
0,4 Seal of Primordium
0,4 Suppression Field
0,4 Replenish
Sideboard: (only mentioning cards >0,4x representation)
4,6 Other
2,4 Leyline of the Void
2,0 Leyline of Sanctity
1,2 Thoughtseize
1,0 Replenish
1,0 Rest in Peace
0,8 Engineered Plague
0,8 Trinisphere
0,6 Enlightened Tutor
0,6 Dead Weight
Average GW Helm deck would look like this:
9,3 creatures
4,0 Argothian Enchantress
3,7 Green Sun’s Zenith
1,0 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
0,7 Eidolon of Blossoms
20,3 lands
7,3 Forest
4,0 Windswept Heath
3,7 Serra’s Sanctum
1,7 Savannah
1,3 Other green fetch
1,0 Karakas
0,7 Plains
0,7 Dryad Arbor
30,3 enchantments
4,0 Enchantress’s Presence
4,0 Wild Growth
4,0 Utopia Sprawl
3,3 Elephant Grass
3,0 Mirri’s Guile
2,7 Solitary Confinement
2,3 Rest in Peace
1,3 Helm of Obedience
1,0 Sterling Grove
1,0 Banishing Light/Oblivion Ring
1,0 Sigil of the Empty Throne
0,7 Carpet of Flowers
0,7 Exploration
0,7 Journey to Nowhere
0,3 Enlightened Tutor
0,3 Runed Halo
0,3 Sphere of Safety
0,3 Suppression Field
0,3 Sylvan Library
Sideboard: (only mentioning cards >0,4x representation)
3,7 Leyline of Sanctity
3,3 Other
1,3 Humility
1,3 Sterling Grove
1,3 Trinisphere
0,7 Choke
0,7 Enlightened Tutor
0,7 Gaddock Teeg
0,7 Journey to Nowhere
0,7 Banishing Light/Oblivion Ring
0,7 Suppression Field
Last edited by Fjaulnir; 01-24-2017 at 01:36 AM.
Thanks for the work on this Fjaulnir. I'm a bit surprised at some of the numbers. Still digesting it, but I wanted to thank yo for your time into this. Also to clarify, are the commas equivalent to decimal points?
Yeah in Europe 0,5 is American 0.5. If we use the dot, it's for thousands etc, 1.000 is a thousand/1,000.
The sample size is quite small (5 doomwake decks and 3 helm decks; 2 didn't run either) and it doesnt mean in any way that they are the best Enchantress builds possible atm - but may still be a good starting point for numbers on mana base etc.
(They are also averages, meaning that 1 deck running 4 fetches and 1 deck running 8 would make it seem like 6 is the sweet spot whereas that may just be coincidence and maybe 7-8 is still better when running 2 Bayous)
But one's got to start somewhere and at least I can now give people with no experience with the deck, some kind of basellne where they could start
I've been tweaking my list a bit with your help so far. Do you think this is a good setup vs. a field of mostly Delver/Loam/Lands/BUG/DnT/Miracles plus some random other decks?
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
4 Elephant Grass
2 Solitary Confinement
1 Sphere of Safety
3 Mirri's Guile
2 Sterling Grove
1 Banishing Light
3 Rest in Peace
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Doomwake Giant
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
7 Forest
1 Plains
3 Serra's Sanctum
1 Savannah
2 Bayou
SIDEBOARD
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Dread of Night
1 Engineered Plague
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Suppression Field
1 Humility
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 City of Solitude
1 Enlightened Tutor
I have been playing enchantress for a little over a year now and love the brewing and adapting to the metagame process. I think you are right on the money Freggle with making sure we all understand the context. I think another category enchantress can fall into at times is a ramp deck as well. I find myself at times trying to find powerful cards from previous ramp decks. I like to test out a new card or two to see the impact on the metagame every time I play locally. I find myself gradually leaning towards wanting to play a control game grinding out the game with one for ones and just winning through card advantage. I was initially concerned with Leovold and modified the maindeck and sideboard to contain 4 Oblivion Ring and 3 Swords to Plowshares between the two to answer this concern. It has felt like an overreaction after putting it in to action. What I learned from this process was the control element of enchantress can be played at such a high level against decks with permanents. I played against 2 black/red reanimators last night winning against one and losing to the other. I was completely blind going into this matchup, and I noticed your pps about reanimator being a bigger issue. I sided in Leyline of Sanctity after seeing an Unmask. I wasn't sure whether it was really good or just okay against reanimator. Mindbreak Trap should help in the matchup. Here is the list I ran last night finishing 3-2 at our local 20 man event after losing my last round in game 3 to All Is Dust - of course I took out my Sigarda Host of Herons in sideboard for the night :)
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Mirri's Guile (want to go up to 4 in a more control version to dig to key pieces better. I want this as a turn one play 95% of the time.)
3 Oath of Nissa (has been solid. It has usually been getting me a Serra's Sanctum or either of my finishers)
3 Elephant Grass (This should never be less than a 3 of in any list.)
4 Solitary Confinement (I find this card to be too important to how this deck wants to play. I don't mind just playing it for one turn just to bubble. It doesn't need to be a sit and lock piece in your hand when you are running 3-4 of them.)
1 Garruk Wildspeaker (has been solid. Great against miracles. Also untaps Serra's Sanctum and an enchantment loaded land for a big mana acceleration turn.)
1 Ulamog the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul the Aeons Torn
1 Sigarda, Heron's Grace (good green sun's zenith target to make you hexproof. Also finishes out grinded games.)
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Sphere of Safety
4 Serra's Sanctum (this is the biggest dilemma I go back and forth between. It is such a key ramp piece and crucial to your heavy accelerated turns that I always want to hit it. I want to take out 1 for a Karakas, but I am still not sure if playing less than 4 of a card that seems like one of the key reasons to play enchantress is correct.)
4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
8 Forest
1 Plains
1 Savannah
Sideboard:
2 Drop of Honey (Still testing over the next month or so. Has been good at times against delver variants, death and taxes, and eldrazi. It does require you to not jam out your Argothian Enchantress immediately. Does lead to weird plays of chump blocking with Argothian Enchantress.)
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Leyline of Sanctity (I want to drop this to a 2 of or cut this completely. Have any of you cut this completely and noticed a heavy desire for it afterwards?)
2 Minbreak Trap (Is this more important than Leyline of Sanctity for our big trouble matchups? Maybe this is the 3 of)
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Pithing Needle (deals with Deathrite Shaman.)
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Oblivion Ring
I am not claiming any of my oddball pieces to be must includes. Just trying to figure out and test more cards for the enchantress deck. Have any of you had oddball pieces that you experimented with that you felt had some performance but others thought were poor choices? I would love to hear about them.
My list I have been playing seems very similar to Snowfire's.
NAME:MyEnchantress
3 Elephant Grass
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Doomwake Giant
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
4 Enchantress's Presence
2 Carpet of Flowers (On the fence about this, when good its really good)
2 Rest in Peace
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Enlightened Tutor (Instant speed, and can get Helm)
2 Solitary Confinement
2 Sterling Grove
3 Wild Growth (Gone back and forth replacing 1 carpet of flowers)
4 Utopia Sprawl
1 Helm of Obedience
3 Green Sun's Zenith (Find this dead card late in game, so I don't want to have too many.
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Nevermore (Silver Bullet based on what they play)
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Plains
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (Not bad with Leyline, Doomwake even if not fetchable)
1 Overgrown Tomb (Don't have a Bayou)
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Savannah
7 Forest
3 Serra's Sanctum
1 Karakas
SB: 1 Stony Silence (Artifact Hate)
SB: 1 Leyline of the Void (Needed for BR reanimator as RIP is too slow)
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares (single answer against infect)
SB: 2 Suppression Field (slow down miracles, but I have not seen this card be great and is a nonbo with sterling grove, but usually I have the mana advantage)
SB: 1 Humility (Eldirazi)
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity (Burn, Storm, also turns off Liliana's 2 and 3 ability)
SB: 1 Seal of Primordium (Combo hate, Aluren)
SB: 1 Dread of Night (Death & Taxes)
SB: 1 Peacekeeper (This card has bee really good, but people may say containment priest is better. I think this gives more flexibility against things like Elves.
SB: 1 Duress (Back and forth about this or thoughtseize, but other than Emrakul, I doubt I can see using this for a creature.)
Play a lot on XMage and this seems to be the right balance as I am not losing immediately to combo. The issue with going All In on RIP\Helm is you have no counterspell backup, and are applying no pressure. I think by having the second doomwake, it creates another threat, sweeper, and best of all its an enchantment.
Tried Eidolon of Blossoms, but there is a huge difference between cast and resolves. I know you can use Replenish, but not if you are looking to cut off the graveyard. Even without Helm, RIP neuters Tarmogoyf, Deathrite Shaman, and Dredge.
I might be convinced to have a 2nd O-Ring and possibly eliminate the carpet of flowers, but seems to be going well.
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