I'm not sure I agree with both of your assessments.
Entreat has historically been better vs BUG than the more aggressive Lightning Bolt strategies due to their higher curve giving more time to set it up properly, you can play the matchup a lot more proactively as you don't have to be concerned with any reach too, just what's on board.
VS Lightning Bolt decks, in my experience at least, you play it very differently to BUG by getting the board under control and the reach locked up with CB, just play to survive in the early game. In this context, when you're playing to get the game under control with CB, there will be windows to then land and protect a Mentor from a bolt, you can't do this with Entreat or VS BUG decks.
Given that, I think the opposite is true for this statement - 'Mentor was a lot worse in a meta that had cheap kill spells, and since the meta is shifting from that Mentor is better positioned now.'
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
I understand what you mean. Note that I'm evaluating a shell with Mentor+JTMS separate from that of Entreat shells, I think Entreat is better than both in the metagame that I presented, I'm simply describing a scenario where people are dropping bolts/blasts from their tempo shells and that this can be exploited via the combination of Mentor+JTMS in a shell that had not quite been explored as much in the past.
Entreat is KING in such a metagame, and I'm not arguing against that.
Fair enough. Though if BUG becomes a bigger part of the metagame I don't like Mentor + Jace as a 'shell'. Mentor suffers from being hit by Decay and Jace doesn't, to point out the obvious. You don't want half your threats dying to the premier removal spell, you want either all or none to be hit by it.
Alternatively, you can blank the decays by having Jace and Entreat as threats, which are much higher impact, but really are a very different plan altogether. This split of Mentor vs Jace/Entreat can be influenced a bit by how the format shakes up in the next week or two I guess.
Saying that, Jace is insane vs pretty much any BUG strategy and can be included on that justification alone. I'm a big fan of the 3-4 Mentor and no Jace lists, but I can see that changing.
You can't just do a straight swap from Mentor to Entreat. The land count and the cantrip count matter in this case. As with many different builds in Miracles, one small change can create a cascading effect resulting in many changes.
Of course, nobody suggested that. We were discussing win cons, deck philosophy and how they will play out vs other top tier decks. Fleshing out numbers is a lot more nuanced.
That's actually not true; In a 20L/w predict list, the mentors and entreats are pretty interchangeable.
And that's the nuanced part of it, the rest of the deck built around the win cons will determine land count etc. I agree with you Quasim0ff.
Hei Guys
So we have some Infect Players in our Meta. I would like to know how do you board against them.. I think the Match up is fine after boarding but Preboard it's really hard sometimes:)
My List (Classic one)
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Terminus
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Plains
3 Island
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Counterbalance
2 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Council's Judgment
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Entreat the Angels
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Blood Moon
What would you bring in? and Side out? (OTP and OTD)
I Side always out 2 Counterspells(Not sure about this on otp, but i think otd fluster is better and like 2 fows, 1 Jace, 1 Entreat 2-4 CB(I'm also not sure about how much CB's i should side out, because sometimes if a CB hit fast you can just win against infect..specially g1:P
Would be nice if anyone have some good advice:)
Greets Pascal
Blood moon is good against infect. They have 1 basic forest.
jup normally i don't play Blood Moon i just take them in because the Meta will probably change to a more BUG Based Decks.
I mean you can really take them out but i think it's sometimes kind of slow specially when they have noble Hierarch or the forest.(Good Infect Player are searching the Forest First)
Against infect I side out force and counterbalance and slow cards (jace, and some mentors). The matchup is a grind and you have to just snap+plow all their creatures while putting up some pressure.
Force is bad because it makes you lose the CA war. With so much removal, getting comboed is not much of a problem.
CB doest deal with 4/12 of their creatures and doesnt interact with the board. Its also a bit clunky.
Envoyé de mon SM-A500FU en utilisant Tapatalk
I never board out Mentor against infect.. He's pretty good sometimes. CB Is clunky but it can't get them:) So i think side out all 4 CB is wrong..I'm really not sure but it's nice to see other players opinion.
I cut all forces and counterbalances, as well as all jaces and then Mentor if I need to make more cuts.
I add all blasts, snapcasters, cliques, wear/tears as well as flusterstorm I have. I want to act like a jund deck post board, in that I just want to kill every single thing he has.
I would -4 force, -4 cb, -2 jace, -1 mentor for 3 blasts, 2 cliques, 2 flusterstorms, 2 w/t, 1 pyroclasm.
I don't like blood moon against them, but you might -1 mentor, +1 moon. They always fetch for their basic forest first, as that will let them cast both grip as well as hierach through b2b as well as moon.
4 fow 2 jtms 2 cs 1 eta <--> 3 blast 3 fluster 2 wt 1 pyroclasm, maybe 1 cj 1 cb for 2 clique
This is the most correct. There's like 50% of chance you'll eventually die to Nexus. You Need Flying blockers, in addition to wear//tear, in order to deal with Nexus. I would argue it's Still Not enough. You also want at least One non-basic hate to ensure that Nexus is Not the winning route for Infect.
This is pretty much how I SB, though I think I leave in some number of FoW because I would rather not die to an all-in BI. I also like to keep some number of CB since it does force them to have an answer, and revealing a Terminus is something that happens often enough.
I bring in:
+3 PBlast
+1 Blood Moon
+1 or 2 Wear // Tear
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 or 2 Mentor depending on how I feel that day
I currently have Meddling Mage in my SB but the last time I played against Infect I didn't so I don't know if I'd bring him in.
I'd take out:
-1 CJ
-2 Jace
-1 ETA
-2 or 3 FoW
-2 CB
The purpose of any moat is to impede attack. Some are filled with water, some with thistles. Some are filled with things best left unseen.
I don't agree with this. The thing that kills you is not going into turn 5 and having spend all your ressources; This is also why I dislike having counterbalances in the deck. A fast counterbalance and no blindflips essentially does nothing.
I don't agree with land hate, at all.
(Also; Please refrain from "this is the most correct" and other absolutes. It discourages discussion.)
I've won a couple Infect matches because they didn't expect the Moon (or couldn't fetch around it because their hand had too much blue). It's definitely more potent that it may seem.
The purpose of any moat is to impede attack. Some are filled with water, some with thistles. Some are filled with things best left unseen.
I've also won with Counterbalance against Eldrazi because I had Jace, Terminus, Force of top and they didn't have cavern....
It's slow, plays into daze/pierce, makes the rest of our plan pretty poor (Jund them into the ground - That get's SIGNIFICANTLY harder without shuffles). You shouldn't strugle from turn 5 onwards if your cards interact reasonable with their creatures.
I would be much more inclined to play b2b over Moon.
Chiming in from the Infect side, I'm already bringing in Grips for those of you who leave in CB. As such, I'm generally thrilled to see you pay 3 at sorcery speed for an enchantment that I'm definitely going to have an answer for. If it were the only artifact/enchantment you played, then there might be some merit to it being unexpected. But as a common card in Miracles sideboards, I don't think you're catching anyone by surprise with this.
The rare corner cases where you get to lock someone out are when you're both slamming the Moon early and when your opponent doesn't have access to a basic forest or Hierarch. Think about how often you're going to meet both of those incredibly unlikely requirements.
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