[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

[Baum]

Playing Gurmag Angler instead of Tombstalker could be right. The need of UU for TNN and BB for Tomstalker indeed puts a stretch on the mana base. Flying is pretty good though, so I'll keep Tombstalker for now until i've got more test results. A friend of mine suggested a 1/1 split of Stalker and Angler. Maybe that's the way to go. Without the Tombstalkers, the Bayou isn't needed.

Regarding Hymn: I honestly don't like the BB casting cost. The main thing i disliked about traditional Team America builds in the past was the extremely cluttered CMC 2 slot. The amount of CMC 2 interaction just feels sooo clunky. I never managed to put up decent results with that variant. But since other players are successful with the deck, it's probably my own fault ;)
I also prefer the information Thoughtseize gives me over the potential Hymn blowouts.

Leovold: I only tested him for a short time, so my results may be off. I don't like the card in Delver shells. I prefer my creatures to either demand an immediate answer (like TNN or Tombstalker) or to generate an immediate effect (like Snapcaster). Leovold doesn't help when we are behind on the board, like Snapcaster -> Removal or TNN. Of course T2 Leovold can be a beating, but I think decks like Reid Dukes GP list are way better at playing that game.

In a couple of games, Leovold was the final nail in the coffin when I had out other threats and my opponent couldn't cantrip into answers, but I probably would have won those games anyway and Leovold felt like win more. As the only threat on the board, he was just a 3/3 for 3 that instantly died and drew me a card, which isn't impressive. I even prefer Snapcaster into Ponder in that situation.
I really like the card in grindy midrange shells though.
But feel free to test him. Maybe you get better results ;)

[Muellerinho]

I fell in love. As a 4c Delver player I think, I'll give a try with this list.

What do you think about
- Gurmag Angler vs Tombstalker?
The double black mana is relevant I think, when you have to cast True-Name Nemesis with UU.
Without Tombstalker, you don't need bayou I think.

- Hymn vs Thoughtseize?
If it is possible to avoid mana problem with UU vs BB.
I think it may interesting to play hymn. The card is too good against so many decks.
What do you thing about this inclusion, because it will be really hard to fit the card in the curve.

- Including Leovold in Sideboard? (maybe in may but I'm not sure about this)
There is a hype for sure, but he might be insanely good in some meta.
If I put it in the mean, I think I'll put away 1 Tombstalker.
In the sideboard, it would be Liliana, but I dislike this. (Want to keep Lili in the 75)

I've been thinking about converting Burg delver into bug with push as well. I've come up with a similar list as Baum did, though without the stalkers. Regarding Hymn, I too think it might be a bit greedy with TNN. I do like the thought of snapcaster hymn though. :) What do you think of this list:

4 deathrite shaman
4 delver of secrets
1 gurmag angler
1 tombstalker
2 snapcaster mage
2 True-name nemesis

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 daze
4 force of will
3 abrupt decay
3 fatal push
3 hymn to tourach
2 thoughtseize

4 underground sea
2 bayou
1 tropical island
4 polluted delta
3 Verdant catacombs
1 misty rainforest
4 wasteland

SB:

2 pithing needle
1 umezawa's jitte
1 leovold
1 darkblast
2 diabolic edict
1 liliana of the veil
2 spell pierce
1 flusterstorm
3 surgical extraction
1 make obselte

Not really sure about the sb, though surgical, flusterstorm, needle, darkblast and edict seem like a no-brainer.
You could also add a tnn a cut a thoughtseize.

[Hrothgar]

Imho this is a good way to go.
Similar to 4c but without mana trouble.
The only slots that can we test imho are:

- 1 Tombstalker
- 3 Hymn to Tourach
- 2 Thoughtseize

The Hymn slot force us to bring in 2 Bayou, and this is not great with Daze.
Obv the Tombstalker have the same need.
I love a solid manabase and I try this:

- 4 Useas
- 3 Trop

- 3 Decay
- 3 Push

- 3 Stifle
- 2 Pierce

- 2 Gurmag
- 2 Snap
- 2 Nemesis

My list have no double B casting cost and is more oriented on a Tempo gameplay: a sort of 4c without Bolts ().
The reason of 4c is the Bolts and the Blast effect...Bolts give at the deck a alternate way to close the games and Blast give a very strong response to the best color ever.
For now i don't know if the BUG version can have the same stronger point than 4c, but for now i see in this list the very similar tech to 4c.

[Whitefaces]

I like the look of these lists! I'm just not big on Tombstalker or Hymn, I don't think it's the direction the '4c style' BUG lists wants to be, but we shall see. Fatal Push comes online tomorrow and I'll test things out :)

Stifle may be quite good here too, maybe Push makes Bob builds very good?

I think I'll be trying something like this

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
1 Gurmag Angler

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Thoughtseize
3 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce
1 Murderous Cut - maybe too much removal?

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland

[Nikedemos]

Imho this is a good way to go.
Similar to 4c but without mana trouble.
The only slots that can we test imho are:

- 1 Tombstalker
- 3 Hymn to Tourach
- 2 Thoughtseize

The Hymn slot force us to bring in 2 Bayou, and this is not great with Daze.
Obv the Tombstalker have the same need.
I love a solid manabase and I try this:

- 4 Useas
- 3 Trop

- 3 Decay
- 3 Push

- 3 Stifle
- 2 Pierce

- 2 Gurmag
- 2 Snap
- 2 Nemesis

My list have no double B casting cost and is more oriented on a Tempo gameplay: a sort of 4c without Bolts ().
The reason of 4c is the Bolts and the Blast effect...Bolts give at the deck a alternate way to close the games and Blast give a very strong response to the best color ever.
For now i don't know if the BUG version can have the same stronger point than 4c, but for now i see in this list the very similar tech to 4c.

So what is your list?

[limbo]

This is my starting point with the Fatal Push addition. I think fatal push allows BUG to go lower to the ground, ignore the opponents hand a bit more, and bring back stifle. This list may lack closing power (missing bolt), in which case +1 Tombstalker, -1 Leo and +2 hymn main and -1 stifle, -1 pierce probably makes sense, but I am planning to start here in my new testing. Stifle is underplayed, and at the GP I didn't see anyone respecting it at all until day 2. I didn't play it and I wish I had.

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Leovold, Emissary of Trest

3x Fatal Push
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Stifle
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Spell Pierce
4x Daze
4x Force of Will

3x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
4x Wasteland
3x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest
2x Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard
2x Hymn to Tourach
1x Thoughtseize
2x Flusterstorm
1x Dread of Night
1x Marsh Casualties
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Null Rod
2x Winter Orb
2x Painful Truths

[wcm8]

I played a few Legacy tournament matches as well as quite a few in-real-life practice games yesterday with the following list:

20 lands (9 fetch, 4 sea, 2 bayou, 1 trop, 4 waste)
4 delver
4 DRS
4 goyf
1 tombstalker
1 liliana otv
4 FoW
4 daze
4 bstorm
4 ponder
4 FATAL PUSH
3 abrupt decay
3 hymn to tourach

SB:
3 spell pierce (should have 1 of them be a Flusterstorm and/or Invasive Surgery)
2 u. jitte (could consider cutting 1 for something else, e.g. Jace TMS)
2 s. extraction (could be split with a G. Cage -- BR Reanimator is on the rise)
2 tsieze (could be something else if combo isn't as prevalent)
2 pithing needle (should be a 1/1 split with Null Rod)
1 s. library
1 darkblast
1 dread of night (simply because there's a lot of D&T in my meta -- could be something else)
1 Leovold, spymaster of trest

The sideboard felt a little lacking at times and was thrown together without a ton of consideration, but I can definitely say that using Umezawa's Jitte as a form of board control actually worked *extremely* well in comparison to alternatives such as Toxic Deluge or Golgari Charm. In certain metagames you might want some number of those *in addition* to a Jitte or two, but I was amazed by just how much landing even only one swing with the equipment controlled the board.

I liked bringing in Leovold in against all sorts of decks, though he does feel a bit 'win more' -- he's great at helping to hammer in that final nail when you're a little bit ahead, but he doesn't seem to do a whole lot of work if you're behind. Hence, I'm not quite as blown away by him in this deck as some people seem to be and am unsure if he really warrants main-deck inclusion. I think he makes a lot of sense in the main of a midrange build that's running more creatures, but in a Delver shell he seems like more of a sideboard card.

The maindeck is basically just the classic Signorini tapout-style, except with making a few minor cuts to make room for 4 copies of Fatal Push. I can say confidently that this addition has made the deck significantly stronger against ALL forms of aggressive decks in a major way. Having a turn 1 answer to things like Deathrite Shaman or Mother of Runes is just SO important, and furthermore it helps free up your copies of Abrupt Decay to use against various non-creature problems.

The classic list was already favored against other forms of Delver, but now I think it's HEAVILY skewed in Team America's favor -- like 70-30. Consider the following advantages in a Delver mirror:
-running 20 lands instead of 18, less likely to lose to Stifle/Waste, more easily able to avoid getting Dazed/Pierced at inopportune moments
-you have 5 large Bolt-proof creatures, 1 of which happens to block Delvers quite nicely and generally can outsize other Goyfs
-against RUG, you have DRS and Liliana which can go over Mongoose
-7 removal spells to pick off basically any threat -- and the 2-mana removal can't be countered
-resolving a Hymn is backbreaking for a deck that can't recoup card advantage

Basically, my assumptions about how FPush would change the dynamics of this deck were correct: the addition of 1-mana removal has increased the power of this deck in a MAJOR and tangible way. Making room to incorporate the full playset just makes the deck so much more solid against creature-reliant decks, and yet TA is still able to maintain it's amazing flexibility and power against basically every deck archetype, and arguably the best form of the Delver archetype. To give a specific example, an advantage it has over Grixis is a more stable manabase and access to Abrupt Decay -- making it so you don't just lose to something like a resolved Counterbalance or Chalice of the Void. Lightning Bolt definitely has it's advantages, but not dying to 4+ toughness creatures has its perks too.

Some areas to explore:
1. Would an 18-19 land, lower-to-the-ground BUG Delver list work well, or does the lack of Lightning Bolt still matter
2. What would an ideal list incorporating Dark Confidant look like?
3. Is a straight UB (no tertiary color except perhaps as a minor splash) Delver list feasible now? Being able to run basic lands seems good.

[wcm8]

Stifle

Stifle's not bad, and certainly has its merits.

However, rather than play it in the main deck, you can take a page out of Bob Huang's book and play it as a 3 or 4-of in the sideboard. Stifle is simply a dead card in some matchups. And since BUG is not quite as capable of capitalizing on Stifle as RUG Delver (fue to a lack of burn, a slightly higher curve, lack of nimble mongoose, etc.), it seems more like something you'd only want to bring in for specific matchups.

Alternatively, it is now entirely possible with the addition of Fatal Push to build a 1:1 BUG version of RUG Delver, i.e. swap Red for Black and run Nimble Mongoose. The lack of Lightning Bolt's versatility will often be made up for by the advantage Fatal Push has of being able to kill 4+ toughness creatures and thus enable you to push your own threats through for the kill. So aside from that and a few sideboard options, the deck's can be build identically. A quick sketch:

18 lands (8 fetch, 3/3 sea/trop, 4 waste)
4/4/4/4/4 bstorm, ponder, FoW, daze, stifle
4/4/4/4 delver, goose, goyf, fatal push
6 flexible slots: some mixture of cards like spell pierce, spell snare, abrupt decay, thoughtseize, counterspell, winter orb, 1 additional threat [e.g. TNNemesis, VClique, etc.]

You lose the versatility of Burn, but now you aren't nearly as weak to opposing Tarmogoyfs and other big creatures. You also have access to Abrupt Decay, and thus don't auto-scoop to a resolved Counterbalance or Chalice of the Void. As great as some Red sideboard cards are (Pyroblast and Ancient Grudge especially), Black provides a fair number of equally powerful replacement options.

I recall that early versions of BUG Tempo often ran some number of Dark Confidant, so perhaps tweaking the deck to make room for Bob would be good. It's just that a 2/1 is extremely fragile in a format like Legacy, and there will occasionally be games where his cards-for-life ability ends up killing you.

There were some successful RUG tempo builds from not too long ago that mixed up the creature configuration to include some number of Hooting Mandrills instead of Mongoose. Access to Black seems like you'd probably lean towards running Gurmag Angler instead, but it's worth noting that Trample lets you still manage to force damage through an opposing True-Name Nemesis or Mother of Runes. I think these builds also ran 1 or 2 copies of Snapcaster Mage, which is admittedly a card that really goes well with Lightning Bolt.

And here's where it all wraps back around: Deathrite Shaman is generally considered more of a midrange card, and there *is* some strategic tension with running DRS + Mongoose due to Threshold concerns. Regardless, I think the card is just so powerful and versatile that it's basically a necessity in any BUG list. There are quite a few games won via DRS's Grim Lavamancer-esque ability, not to mention how he basically functions as a pre-sideboard optoin against graveyard-centric decks. So it's really DRS that makes Mongoose not as strong of a contender in a BUG tempo build, and from there the lack of Goose and Bolt make Stifle less great.

[KobeBryan]

I played a few Legacy tournament matches as well as quite a few in-real-life practice games yesterday with the following list:

20 lands (9 fetch, 4 sea, 2 bayou, 1 trop, 4 waste)
4 delver
4 DRS
4 goyf
1 tombstalker
1 liliana otv
4 FoW
4 daze
4 bstorm
4 ponder
4 FATAL PUSH
3 abrupt decay
3 hymn to tourach

SB:
3 spell pierce (should have 1 of them be a Flusterstorm and/or Invasive Surgery)
2 u. jitte (could consider cutting 1 for something else, e.g. Jace TMS)
2 s. extraction (could be split with a G. Cage -- BR Reanimator is on the rise)
2 tsieze (could be something else if combo isn't as prevalent)
2 pithing needle (should be a 1/1 split with Null Rod)
1 s. library
1 darkblast
1 dread of night (simply because there's a lot of D&T in my meta -- could be something else)
1 Leovold, spymaster of trest

The sideboard felt a little lacking at times and was thrown together without a ton of consideration, but I can definitely say that using Umezawa's Jitte as a form of board control actually worked *extremely* well in comparison to alternatives such as Toxic Deluge or Golgari Charm. In certain metagames you might want some number of those *in addition* to a Jitte or two, but I was amazed by just how much landing even only one swing with the equipment controlled the board.

I liked bringing in Leovold in against all sorts of decks, though he does feel a bit 'win more' -- he's great at helping to hammer in that final nail when you're a little bit ahead, but he doesn't seem to do a whole lot of work if you're behind. Hence, I'm not quite as blown away by him in this deck as some people seem to be and am unsure if he really warrants main-deck inclusion. I think he makes a lot of sense in the main of a midrange build that's running more creatures, but in a Delver shell he seems like more of a sideboard card.

The maindeck is basically just the classic Signorini tapout-style, except with making a few minor cuts to make room for 4 copies of Fatal Push. I can say confidently that this addition has made the deck significantly stronger against ALL forms of aggressive decks in a major way. Having a turn 1 answer to things like Deathrite Shaman or Mother of Runes is just SO important, and furthermore it helps free up your copies of Abrupt Decay to use against various non-creature problems.

The classic list was already favored against other forms of Delver, but now I think it's HEAVILY skewed in Team America's favor -- like 70-30. Consider the following advantages in a Delver mirror:
-running 20 lands instead of 18, less likely to lose to Stifle/Waste, more easily able to avoid getting Dazed/Pierced at inopportune moments
-you have 5 large Bolt-proof creatures, 1 of which happens to block Delvers quite nicely and generally can outsize other Goyfs
-against RUG, you have DRS and Liliana which can go over Mongoose
-7 removal spells to pick off basically any threat -- and the 2-mana removal can't be countered
-resolving a Hymn is backbreaking for a deck that can't recoup card advantage

Basically, my assumptions about how FPush would change the dynamics of this deck were correct: the addition of 1-mana removal has increased the power of this deck in a MAJOR and tangible way. Making room to incorporate the full playset just makes the deck so much more solid against creature-reliant decks, and yet TA is still able to maintain it's amazing flexibility and power against basically every deck archetype, and arguably the best form of the Delver archetype. To give a specific example, an advantage it has over Grixis is a more stable manabase and access to Abrupt Decay -- making it so you don't just lose to something like a resolved Counterbalance or Chalice of the Void. Lightning Bolt definitely has it's advantages, but not dying to 4+ toughness creatures has its perks too.

Some areas to explore:
1. Would an 18-19 land, lower-to-the-ground BUG Delver list work well, or does the lack of Lightning Bolt still matter
2. What would an ideal list incorporating Dark Confidant look like?
3. Is a straight UB (no tertiary color except perhaps as a minor splash) Delver list feasible now? Being able to run basic lands seems good.

You don't think 7 removal is a bit overkill?

[Venomous72]

You don't think 7 removal is a bit overkill?

I'll be trying a 3/3 split of Decay and Push. Being able to save Decay for Aether Vial and Liliana and using Push on the Thalia and Goyf is pretty nice.

[wcm8]

You don't think 7 removal is a bit overkill?

Not in my local metagame. What it does is make the deck versatile and more capable of beating multiple archetypes game 1, whereas previously I found aggressive decks to be much more difficult prior to sideboarding.

You could probably cut 1 removal spell in exchange for more disruption, but the idea is to have roughly the right amount of each fundamental element -- the ideal mixture of mana, threats, disruption (in the form of Wasteland, reactive counterspells and proactive discard), and answers (removal spells). And the use of cantrips (Ponder, Brainstorm) increases consistency and filtering of the right elements at the right time.

The basic concept of Team America is running the most mana cost-effective examples of each element category.
Best cost-effective counterspells: Force of Will and Daze (and Daze's power is further enhanced with Wasteland and Hymn)
Best cost-effective cantrips: Brainstorm and Ponder (SDT requires a particular shell and doesn't work optimally within a tempo framework)
Best cost-effective discard: Hymn to Tourach (Cabal Therapy requires some build-around, and Thoughtseize doesn't play into the mana denial element like Hymn)
Best cost-effective aggressive creatures (to clock the opponent within the window of opportunity presented via the deck's disruption): Delver, DRS, Tarmogoyf.
Best cost-effective removal: Fatal Push, Abrupt Decay (Decay being particularly amazing as it breaks through walls that would otherwise kill other Delver decks)
And then you have a few additional slots for flex cards to round out to 60. This mostly comes down to preference.

This the deck is backed up with a versatile sideboard in order to cut the weak/useless elements for better/relevant elements. I'm a fan of Nassif-style 1-of sideboards as long as they are fairly well thought out.

A possible starting point:
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
1 Darkblast
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Liliana of the Veil (if none in main, else alternative card -- perhaps Engineered Explosives)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Maelstrom Pulse

[Venomous72]

Not in my local metagame. What it does is make the deck versatile and more capable of beating multiple archetypes game 1, whereas previously I found aggressive decks to be much more difficult prior to sideboarding.

You could probably cut 1 removal spell in exchange for more disruption, but the idea is to have roughly the right amount of each fundamental element -- the ideal mixture of mana, threats, disruption (in the form of Wasteland, reactive counterspells and proactive discard), and answers (removal spells). And the use of cantrips (Ponder, Brainstorm) increases consistency and filtering of the right elements at the right time.

The basic concept of Team America is running the most mana cost-effective examples of each element category.
Best cost-effective counterspells: Force of Will and Daze (and Daze's power is further enhanced with Wasteland and Hymn)
Best cost-effective cantrips: Brainstorm and Ponder (SDT requires a particular shell and doesn't work optimally within a tempo framework)
Best cost-effective discard: Hymn to Tourach (Cabal Therapy requires some build-around, and Thoughtseize doesn't play into the mana denial element like Hymn)
Best cost-effective aggressive creatures (to clock the opponent within the window of opportunity presented via the deck's disruption): Delver, DRS, Tarmogoyf.
Best cost-effective removal: Fatal Push, Abrupt Decay (Decay being particularly amazing as it breaks through walls that would otherwise kill other Delver decks)
And then you have a few additional slots for flex cards to round out to 60. This mostly comes down to preference.

This the deck is backed up with a versatile sideboard in order to cut the weak/useless elements for better/relevant elements. I'm a fan of Nassif-style 1-of sideboards as long as they are fairly well thought out.

A possible starting point:
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
1 Darkblast
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Liliana of the Veil (if none in main, else alternative card -- perhaps Engineered Explosives)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Maelstrom Pulse

I like the list you have been running and will likely try something like that soon. I will be giving this a go tonight, which takes inspiration from the 4c lists:


4x Delver of Secrets
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x True-Name Nemesis
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Gurmag Angler
1x Leovold, Emissary of Trest

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
2x Spell Pierce
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Fatal Push

4x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Misty Rainforest
3x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
2x Bayou
4x Wasteland



Sideboard

3x Diabolic Edict
3x Surgical Extraction
3x Thoughtseize
1x Golgari Charm
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Pithing Needle
1x Null Rod
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Abrupt Decay


Given that I want to hit UU pretty early, I chose not to include Hymns or Lillys in this build, and build more with a counterspell suite in the main as opposed to hand disruption. The sideboard is very much geared toward my local meta, which has 2x Sneak and Show, 2x Turbo Depths, 2-3x Death and Taxes, Lands, Elves, ANT, a LOT of Reanimator, and some BUG stuff, with a few stompy/prison decks scattered around.

[wcm8]

List

I would cut the 2nd Bayou in favor of the 4th Underground Sea or a 3rd Tropical Island (assuming you have it) since it looks like you're more in need of UU than BB.

The sideboard looks okay, but I would recommend finding a slot or two for Flusterstorm and/or Invasive Surgery. Having a hard counter for Sorceries that can occasionally extract the remainder is really nice. Maybe fit in a Grafdigger's Cage to fight Reanimator and Elves.

I'm a fan of Darkblast for fighting DnT and Elves; another consideration is Night of Soul's Betrayal or Engineered Plague. Since you have a lot of X/1 creatures, the NoSB is a no-go, but EP is pretty good. Golgari charm is effective, but I like the static effect provided by enchantments. I don't really think you need the 4th Abrupt Decay, and if anything I'd rather play the 4th Fatal Push.

[Venomous72]

I would cut the 2nd Bayou in favor of the 4th Underground Sea or a 3rd Tropical Island (assuming you have it) since it looks like you're more in need of UU than BB.

The sideboard looks okay, but I would recommend finding a slot or two for Flusterstorm and/or Invasive Surgery. Having a hard counter for Sorceries that can occasionally extract the remainder is really nice. Maybe fit in a Grafdigger's Cage to fight Reanimator and Elves.

I'm a fan of Darkblast for fighting DnT and Elves; another consideration is Night of Soul's Betrayal or Engineered Plague. Since you have a lot of X/1 creatures, the NoSB is a no-go, but EP is pretty good. Golgari charm is effective, but I like the static effect provided by enchantments. I don't really think you need the 4th Abrupt Decay, and if anything I'd rather play the 4th Fatal Push.

I would absolutely add a 4th underground or trop but I currently don't have access to them. I do have an Invasive Surgery laying around and I think you are correct, that should be in the SB.

I am going to try and pick up an Engineered Plague sometime before the tournament. I have been meaning to grab one but haven't gotten around to it yet. Thanks for the feedback.

I am wondering if the Hymn to Tourach/Lilliana list is just better positioned, but there is a lot of Jund/Junk/Death and Taxes at my shop as well, which makes TNN really good.

[wcm8]

TNN *is* really good against those decks, the problem is consistently hitting 3 mana against DnT.

I mean yeah, if the stars align and you win the die roll, go turn 1 DRS, turn 2 TNN, you're good to go. Those games you're likely to win, and I think a big component in Reid Duke's list winning the latest GP was that he ran 4 Noble Hierarch in addition to the 4 DRS to further increase the likelihood of having 3 mana by the second turn.

But there is just as much likelihood that you lose the flip and have to be on the draw; you don't have a turn 1 DRS (or you do but it gets Plow'ed); you're forced to Daze a critical early play and thus fall behind on a land drop; you have to Push/Decay a Mom while you still can; or they have a Wasteland/Port to keep you from hitting 3 mana in a reasonable time frame; or you only have a Sea, Bayou and a Wasteland on board. Or maybe you DO resolve a TNN but they follow up with a Council's Judgement. DnT is remarkably good at doing all of this.

It's for all of these reasons why I really still like Tarmogoyf, despite it's lack of evasion or shielding. It's just a big dumb beater, but most importantly, it only costs two mana. This a major aspect of its power level since it hits the board earlier and in the early turns you're *also* capable of playing another spell (or two) on the same turn as summoning it. Along with Hymn + Decay, you'll often be able to get multiple types of cards in the graveyard, growing it to massive proportions. A 4/5 or 5/6 creature is siginificantly faster in ending the game (5 or 4 turns) versus a 3/1,which will take 7 turns (3 x 7 = 21). Once again, Noble Hierarch makes TNN a more potent threat thanks to Exalted.

The point being: If your deck is wanting to lean on TNN, you might want to consider playing Noble Hierarch in addition to your Shamans. OR, if you're dead-set on running TNN in a BUG Delver list, you might consider still running 3-4 Tarmogoyf and only 1-2 TNN.

[Venomous72]

TNN *is* really good against those decks, the problem is consistently hitting 3 mana against DnT.

I mean yeah, if the stars align and you win the die roll, go turn 1 DRS, turn 2 TNN, you're good to go. Those games you're likely to win, and I think a big component in Reid Duke's list winning the latest GP was that he ran 4 Noble Hierarch in addition to the 4 DRS to further increase the likelihood of having 3 mana by the second turn.

But there is just as much likelihood that you lose the flip and have to be on the draw; you don't have a turn 1 DRS (or you do but it gets Plow'ed); you're forced to Daze a critical early play and thus fall behind on a land drop; you have to Push/Decay a Mom while you still can; or they have a Wasteland/Port to keep you from hitting 3 mana in a reasonable time frame; or you only have a Sea, Bayou and a Wasteland on board. Or maybe you DO resolve a TNN but they follow up with a Council's Judgement. DnT is remarkably good at doing all of this.

It's for all of these reasons why I really still like Tarmogoyf, despite it's lack of evasion or shielding. It's just a big dumb beater, but most importantly, it only costs two mana. This a major aspect of its power level since it hits the board earlier and in the early turns you're *also* capable of playing another spell (or two) on the same turn as summoning it. Along with Hymn + Decay, you'll often be able to get multiple types of cards in the graveyard, growing it to massive proportions. A 4/5 or 5/6 creature is siginificantly faster in ending the game (5 or 4 turns) versus a 3/1,which will take 7 turns (3 x 7 = 21). Once again, Noble Hierarch makes TNN a more potent threat thanks to Exalted.

The point being: If your deck is wanting to lean on TNN, you might want to consider playing Noble Hierarch in addition to your Shamans. OR, if you're dead-set on running TNN in a BUG Delver list, you might consider still running 3-4 Tarmogoyf and only 1-2 TNN.

This all makes a lot of sense. Thanks for this. I think I will adjust a bit to match your list/malimujo's list. I will likely cut down to two TNNs. I think the fast clock of Goyf makes up for the fact that it gets hit by Push.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Remember, these are opinions. Wcm8 said to lower your number of tnn and up goyf in a metagame you describe as jund/junk. All your goyfs will do is turn on their Pushes and create board states of goyfmate or thalia block-bounce via karakas. I disagree with a lot of what he said to be frank. I just came from playing Duke's list. I think 7-8 dorks is less good, and you should stick to the list you have for now.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[wcm8]

He's absolutely right, these are just opinions. MTG is such a complicated game that there isn't really a definitive *best* option a lot of the time, as so much depends on the particulars of circumstance and luck.

In the case of a metagame full of Jund, Junk, Elves and DnT, opting for playing lots of TNN instead of Tarmogoyf might be better.

You also have to make a choice regarding leaning towards Blue or Black in terms of your disruption and control elements -- and which color you lean towards also determines which creature tends to be better (I.e. I think Goyf is great alongside Hymn, whereas in a deck with more cards like Spell Pierce and/or Stifle, TNN makes a lot of sense). So it's not really just a matter of saying one creature is better than the other, as it also depends on how the rest of your deck is constructed.

My approach to this deck is that I want to play the most efficient cards together, and that I don't want to be waiting until my third land drop to establish a threat, particularly one that isn't even all that threatening in terms of establishing a clock. The way I see most games play out are that typically you can get the first few swings in with an early Delver or Goyf, but then you need to clean up after you've exchanged blows and both players are in/close-to topdeck mode (made easier with Hymn). And it's here that a huge Tarmogoyf can end the game quickly before the opponent is able to rebuild. Having 1-2 TNN as mid or late-game threats would be fine but seem questionable as a primary clock in this sort of deck archetype.

A different approach/philosophy will yield a different conclusion in terms of the best creature option.

[wcm8]

Playing Gurmag Angler instead of Tombstalker could be right. The need of UU for TNN and BB for Tomstalker indeed puts a stretch on the mana base. Flying is pretty good though, so I'll keep Tombstalker for now until i've got more test results. A friend of mine suggested a 1/1 split of Stalker and Angler. Maybe that's the way to go. Without the Tombstalkers, the Bayou isn't needed.

I just want to revisit this quote, as I think it's worth explaining the deck's historical development towards an optimized manabase.

The NoVa players (mainly Dan Signorini, but I believe that the Hatfield brothers and David Gearhart contributed as well) came up with the 'classic' mana-base after countless hours and rounds of testing and tweaking. This was done in an effort to ensure, *reliably*, that the deck would have access to on turn 2 in order to cast Sinkhole and/or Hymn to Tourach. It was also to ensure that the four copies of Tombstalker could be easily cast when the time came, as back in the day the deck did not have access to Delver of Secrets nor Deathrite Shaman. The conclusion reached was that the following mana-base, in tandem with a full playset of both Brainstorm and Ponder, was ideal in terms of hitting double-black on turn 2: 9 Sultai Fetch-lands; 4 Underground Sea, 2 Bayou, 1 Tropical Island. (4 Wasteland of course, but it's only used occasionally for actually casting anything). I've done plenty of my own testing with various tweaks (e.g. cutting the 9th fetch, opting over a 2nd Tropical Island instead of the 2nd Bayou) but in each case the deck suffered in its ability to cast a turn 2 Hymn. The point is, don't mess with perfection if you're running Hymn.


If you are playing the 'classic' mana-base, hitting BB isn't really too much of a problem, and is bolstered further with the addition of DRS. So the *real* consideration between Angler and Stalker is whether the additional mana is worth Flying. In a Delver and/or TNN-heavy metagame, I would argue that it is, particularly since Angler and Stalker are likely only being played as 1-2 slots and are generally only being cast later in the game anyways after you've expended your initial resources. I also prefer Stalker against DnT as a way to fend off their Flickerwisps and Serra Avengers, and against Elves you want fliers to be able to punch damage through a wall created by Symbiote activations. Stalker does an amazing job of mopping up and can be viewed as sort of a delayed multi-casting of Lightning Bolt.

But the other factor to consider is whether you are playing other mana-hungry spells. If you cut Hymn to Tourach, you're leaving behind what I consider to be a major component of the deck. Hymn is a large part of the reason this deck even wants to play 20 lands, and without it you can probably just run some variant of 'BUG Thresh' that leans more heavily on Blue control elements (Stifle, Spell Pierce, etc.) and only runs 18-19 lands. However, I think Hymn is the major factor in what makes this deck competitive, as it plays into all aspects of the deck's strategy: if it hits 'action' cards, that's less stuff that you have to actually deal with; if it hits removal, your threats are more likely to go all the way; if it hits lands, your Daze and Wastelands are just that much better.

If the metagame has shifted to such an extent that Hymn isn't good, then perhaps it's time to shelve the deck for awhile and play some other archetype.

Regarding Stifle, which is of perennial interest: if you do want to run it, strongly consider also running some number of Winter Orb. Jonathan Alexander has done a lot of work with Canadian Thresh and has proven that Orb has amazing synergy with the mana-denial and taxing-counters plan.

Hell, run Winter Orb in the sideboard regardless if you want an advantage against decks like Miracles or Lands. It's an amazing card and just as good here as it is in Grixis and RUG Delver.

[Venomous72]

I appreciate the input guys. I think I am going to split the difference and go -1 Lilliana -1 Tombstalker, +2 TNN.

We have a lot of BUG at my shop so fatal push is everywhere (along with Swords from Miracles/D and T), but we also have a decent amount of Reanimator and Lands, so the Tarmogoyf clock is very relevant.

I really do need to pick up another Underground Sea but am also tempted by a few Tundras. Magic budgeting is hard.