[Primer/Deck] Pox

[griselbranding]

How were the Bloodghasts and the Rack/Shrieking Affliction?

Did you miss the Factories?


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[Hardcore]

Smallpox + Bloodghast + the rack =

[ntropy]

Has anyone thought about Yahenni's Expertise?

I ran it last night in my 4-drop slot instead of Night of Soul's Betrayal, hoping to blow out some DRS/Shardless Agent nonsense, but I never drew and played against Burn/Miracles/Burn (2-0-1) My Collective Brutalities and Trinispheres in the board vs Burn are helpful, but the matchup is still rough.

And just because you aren't interested in discussing Mono Black builds, doesn't mean the rest of us have nothing to talk about.

[Hardcore]

The expertise is susceptible to counters, but I suppose it can be an alternative to NoSB (if you are going to play a four mana spell anyway) . Myself I prefer sweepers that can play around daze, such as sickening dreams.

[Hardcore]

For anyone wondering how Ankh of Mishra works I can say it is like a combination of chalice and the rack. A lock piece that also do damage. Also, like chalice, its efficiency varies with the opponent, and is best when played early. I suppose this make it a sideboard card. That said I did get use of it in all the games and did not board them out at any time.

[OmniStrata]

Has anyone thought about Yahenni's Expertise?

I ran it last night in my 4-drop slot instead of Night of Soul's Betrayal, hoping to blow out some DRS/Shardless Agent nonsense, but I never drew and played against Burn/Miracles/Burn (2-0-1) My Collective Brutalities and Trinispheres in the board vs Burn are helpful, but the matchup is still rough.

And just because you aren't interested in discussing Mono Black builds, doesn't mean the rest of us have nothing to talk about.

I mentioned it a while ago but I keep fearing that I'd end up just top decking it and it'd just be an inferior Mutilate. Did you ever end up in a situation where you could drop it with Liliana/other spell? My deck style has my hand empty before or on turn 4 which kind of defeats the purpose of the card. My current sideboard sweeper is Massacre for D&T + Miracles monks but I was juggling that with Drown in Sorrow, which is an excellent top deck vs. weenie rush and fixes your draw.

Current deck list runs only 1 Dark Ritual per advice from Tom "The Boss" Ross. Pox doesn't want to card disadvantage itself too much so a singleton Dark Rit and Contagion is enough.

[sppabin]

What's your UB list look like and how are you sideboarding against Shardless?

4 Disfigure (eventually going to be Fatal Push)
4 Inquisition
4 Brainstorm
3 Sinkhole
3 Hymn
4 Smallpox
4 Jace, VP
2 TNN
4 Liliana
2 Recoil

8 Fetchlands
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Urborg
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
5 Swamp
1 Island

2 Tabernacle
4 Surgical
2 Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Perish
1 Lost Legacy
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Sphere of Resistance

Generally vs Shardless (and other more fringe grindy decks that are also an issue) I have been taking out a lot of my 1 for 1 stuff for Tabernacle and Sphere. Before I was bringing in Propaganda (which if it protected planeswalkers would have probably worked) and Back to Basics (which required me to build my manabase in a bad way and the 2 Tar Pits are a key contributor to my great win rate vs Miracles). It seems my best bet is going to be to go for their lands as playing 1 for 1 resource denial against a deck that plays virtual Ancestral Recall and endless 2 for 1's is not gonna do it. When I played mono-black the only games that went my way were the ones that I kept the Shardless player off land. I have considered adding a couple Mishra's Factorys to the main deck and switching the Spheres to Standstills in the board, but I'm not sure that trying to beat Shardless at it's own game is where I wanna be.

It's not really just Shardless being the problem, I have trouble with decks that are built for grinding like it. Lost to some weird version of Thieves, some sort of BUG Loam Pox that played Mind Sculptor and Snapcaster and endless other 2 for 1's, Punishing Loam is not an easy match, and I haven't played vs Nic Fit but something tells me it would be an uphill battle. So yeah, basically decks that can go longer than my 1 for 1 denial can go.

There's definitely some room for adjustment, just not sure where. If there is a powerful enough sideboard option, I'm not against adding an extra dual land with a third color in the board (I originally had a Bayou and 3 Abrupt Decay in the board until I realized Miracles wasn't too difficult of a match).

[sppabin]

So the irony of saying that mono b should be dropped like a bad habit and then commenting on having issues with shardless makes me want to laugh, since I have yet to lose a long game to shardless with mono b or splashing g for having abrupt decay as my point and click removal spell. There are so many ways to build the deck and be (effectively) mono b that it makes my head hurt, as you need to decide how agressive you want to be (bloodghast vs factories vs scrolls) how much you want to focus on one shot effects vs staying effects (nether void/abyss vs pox/brutality) how much acceleration you want (0-6, diamonds, Rits or both?) and then you get to the impact of how your removal choices play out, how risqué is your mana base, (fetches for push any top vs dust bowl/drownyard temple vs swamps, wasteland, urborg) and that's without touching the sideboard. That being said, one of the common strengths that the basically mono b lists has always had is being very strong against non-top brainstorm decks. We regularly point and laugh at delver, and I think I've lost two sanctioned matches to shardless, both of which were due to my foolishness. My biggest piece of advice for anyone wanting to be able to slaughter a particular deck, you should proxy it or build it and play it for a month. You'll figure out all the points that you, as a pilot of that deck, don't want to interact with. It's how I figured out that shardless literally cannot beat us if we have the abyss out. It's how I figured out what to thoughtseize out of storm hands. It's how I learned where to push and how hard vs miracles (if you can force their fetches, do so, and do everything in your power to keep them off of double white. They basically can't win if big pox resolves, and Liliana plus nether void is basically game over, but they don't care much about chains unless they play mentor.)

I really don't see how Abrupt Decay makes Shardless a great matchup. Sure, Decay that Tarmogoyf they played off of Shardless. Meanwhile they still have the Baleful Strix and Shardless Agent clocking you, with an Ancestral Vision suspended or a Deathrite in play and they still have more cards in hand than you.

Yep, you could play Bloodghast/Factory/Scroll and this has all been weighed, measured, and found wanting.
Adding a couple 1-of's in the form of Void and Abyss is not hugely impactful What are the odds of drawing that one card in a 60 card deck that has no library manipulation?
Acceleration is in the same boat as the Bloodghast/Factory/Scroll camp.

I'm not saying you can't customize the deck, I'm saying all that crap has been tried and it still isn't very good. Yes, you can win some local 8-man event where your first match is against some 12 year old playing a Standard deck but mono-black is not going to all of a sudden have consistent success. Anything can spike an event, hence why a few times in history Mono-Black Pox had decent placings, but it can't consistently do that. I really enjoy the archetype, hence why it is a deck I actively play, but without adding colors there aren't enough options to make it competitive.

[sppabin]

For anyone wondering how Ankh of Mishra works I can say it is like a combination of chalice and the rack. A lock piece that also do damage. Also, like chalice, its efficiency varies with the opponent, and is best when played early. I suppose this make it a sideboard card. That said I did get use of it in all the games and did not board them out at any time.

Ankh is a neat idea. I imagine you have to play 3 or 4 to ensure you draw it early enough to make it matter as it seems like a pretty crummy top-deck in a deck that is supposed to dominate the top-deck war. From my experience, it seems like a card that would help some of my problem match-ups while only losing a few percentage points against decks I'm favored against. Making Shardless and Miracles to take 5 for each fetch seems like a great way to speed up the clock. I have a very loose BW deck and I'm going to keep a few of these nearby so I don't forget to try them out!

[streetMage]

4 Disfigure (eventually going to be Fatal Push)
4 Inquisition
4 Brainstorm
3 Sinkhole
3 Hymn
4 Smallpox
4 Jace, VP
2 TNN
4 Liliana
2 Recoil

8 Fetchlands
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Urborg
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
5 Swamp
1 Island

2 Tabernacle
4 Surgical
2 Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Perish
1 Lost Legacy
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Sphere of Resistance...

Interesting list, thanks for sharing. Have you ever thought of running Stifle and Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver? I think those would fair better in long grindy games than Recoil and Sphere of Resistance.

Also, I don't agree with TNN in a Smallpox list, but if you insist and have seen good results, I'd recommend switching to your Lilies to Liliana, the Last Hope. She would seem to work better since you run 6 targets for her -2 ability; (Jace and TNN).

You might also want to run a 2x Academy Ruins instead of the Tabernacle or even run one main in place of a Wasteland. You have alot of targets for it and I'd even add in some Mox Diamonds and Engineered Explosives. An extra Ensnaring Bridge might be good also, especially with an Ashiok sitting behind it...

I've found in grindy matchups its all about recursion and resource denial. Against Shardless, I take out all of my Hymns, some discard and put in more cards that effect the board. Ashiok can be good against them since it hits their library and allows you to pit their threats against them...Lil last hope gives you recursion and can shrink gofy for awhile...Stifle can deal with Baleful Strix, thier planeswalkers, Shardless Agent, fetches, etc.

Edit: With all the planeswalkers, Heart of Kiran might be good aswell..recurrable with Academy Ruins, gets under Smallpox, decent clock...

[Quitrex]

I really don't see how Abrupt Decay makes Shardless a great matchup. Sure, Decay that Tarmogoyf they played off of Shardless. Meanwhile they still have the Baleful Strix and Shardless Agent clocking you, with an Ancestral Vision suspended or a Deathrite in play and they still have more cards in hand than you.

Yep, you could play Bloodghast/Factory/Scroll and this has all been weighed, measured, and found wanting.
Adding a couple 1-of's in the form of Void and Abyss is not hugely impactful What are the odds of drawing that one card in a 60 card deck that has no library manipulation?
Acceleration is in the same boat as the Bloodghast/Factory/Scroll camp.

I'm not saying you can't customize the deck, I'm saying all that crap has been tried and it still isn't very good. Yes, you can win some local 8-man event where your first match is against some 12 year old playing a Standard deck but mono-black is not going to all of a sudden have consistent success. Anything can spike an event, hence why a few times in history Mono-Black Pox had decent placings, but it can't consistently do that. I really enjoy the archetype, hence why it is a deck I actively play, but without adding colors there aren't enough options to make it competitive.

So I don't remember saying that decay is what made the shardless matchup good. What makes the matchup good is your own choice in long game cards, and if you opt out of those for more 1-4-1 cards and a quicker kill, you'll just lose to them. What makes the matchup good for me is the cursed scroll so that they never really get to stick a non-goyf creature, the abyss so they never get goyf and deathrite, crucible so they can't actually get ahead on mana, chains so they can't go brainstorming and ancestral and have you out of the gain, tabernacle and nether void to tie up their mana, surgical/extirpate to let them know hat you really, really don't wanna see card x ever again. The matchup is not an auto win or an auto loss, and the match slip is usually signed 2-1 in somebody's favor, and I had an opponent suspend double ancestral on turn 3 in game one and I beat on through it in spite of mucking up and hymning him with one card in his hand and both of them on one counter. The name of the game is getting 2for1s on them, seeing how many cards Liliana can rip out of their hand and how many creatures she can eat. The name of your mana denial isn't hard denial, since they're on enough land to natural draw out orbit without their brainstorms and such, but to keep them choked, not even locked off of but restricted, on a certain color (w/e their short of, usually green). At the end of the day, it is like most other b control v b control matchups where both players intend to empty he other players hand and the math usually goes to whoever is a.) better at restocking vs dealing with their opponents' restocking, and b.) more capable of out playing the other one with the on-board tools when full topdecking is initiated. All decay does for me in that matchup is make it easier to answer their Lilliana's and harder for them to keep me from killing their things.

[sppabin]

Interesting list, thanks for sharing. Have you ever thought of running Stifle and Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver? I think those would fair better in long grindy games than Recoil and Sphere of Resistance.

Also, I don't agree with TNN in a Smallpox list, but if you insist and have seen good results, I'd recommend switching to your Lilies to Liliana, the Last Hope. She would seem to work better since you run 6 targets for her -2 ability; (Jace and TNN).

You might also want to run a 2x Academy Ruins instead of the Tabernacle or even run one main in place of a Wasteland. You have alot of targets for it and I'd even add in some Mox Diamonds and Engineered Explosives. An extra Ensnaring Bridge might be good also, especially with an Ashiok sitting behind it...

I've found in grindy matchups its all about recursion and resource denial. Against Shardless, I take out all of my Hymns, some discard and put in more cards that effect the board. Ashiok can be good against them since it hits their library and allows you to pit their threats against them...Lil last hope gives you recursion and can shrink gofy for awhile...Stifle can deal with Baleful Strix, thier planeswalkers, Shardless Agent, fetches, etc.

Edit: With all the planeswalkers, Heart of Kiran might be good aswell..recurrable with Academy Ruins, gets under Smallpox, decent clock...

First off, thanks for the food for thought.

I've considered Stifle, but I'm trying to keep everything as proactive as possible. Stifle can be un-synergistic with Liliana/Smallpox and Jace. I admit I haven't tested it yet, but will add it to my list of possibilities.

Ashiok doesn't seem like a terrible idea, I'll be fitting 1 into the board or possibly the main.

I like the new Liliana, but at 30 bones online I will wait for non-Standard inflated prices.

You lost me with Academy Ruins, Volrath's Stronghold doesn't seem like a terrible idea though. I'll be finding room for one for certain, endless True-Name/Jace seems good.

The Recoils seem weird but they generally play like Dimir colored Vindicates at instant speed. In a top-deck war it answers any permanent. I have basically never been unhappy to see it.

I haven't really ever had much tension between the TNN and Smallpox. In my last 50 or so matches there was one game that I had TNN in play and drew a Smallpox I would have liked to cast.

Much obliged!

[non-inflammable]

With all the planeswalkers, Heart of Kiran might be good aswell..recurrable with Academy Ruins, gets under Smallpox, decent clock...

when i saw the ability of heart of kiran, i immediately thought of garruk relentless.

too bad there isn't any synergy with him and POX lists...

[ntropy]

Re: Yahenni's Expertise

I mentioned it a while ago but I keep fearing that I'd end up just top decking it and it'd just be an inferior Mutilate. Did you ever end up in a situation where you could drop it with Liliana/other spell? My deck style has my hand empty before or on turn 4 which kind of defeats the purpose of the card. My current sideboard sweeper is Massacre for D&T + Miracles monks but I was juggling that with Drown in Sorrow, which is an excellent top deck vs. weenie rush and fixes your draw.

Current deck list runs only 1 Dark Ritual per advice from Tom "The Boss" Ross. Pox doesn't want to card disadvantage itself too much so a singleton Dark Rit and Contagion is enough.

My list is on 4 Dark Ritual, no Contagion I generally discard Rituals 2-4 to Smallpox/Liliana/Pox, preserving that last Innocent Blood or Hymn in my hand, seems to be worth it for turn 1 Lilianas or Hymns.

I've only played 3 matches with one Yahenni's Expertise and I never drew it. It is instead of Night of Soul's Betrayal in my list. It will be worse at holding down D+T, Elves, Delver, but better at answering Shardless/Aluren which is prominent in my meta. I try to think of it as a topdecked sweeper with it's second clause for occasional blowout potential. I will report back as I gain experience with it.

I have 2 Toxic Deluge Main and 2 Engineered Plague, 1 Perish in the Sideboard as sweepers.

edited to add more

[HeroBean]

On Ankh Pox: I've tried a blue-black list with Stifle and Brainstorm, and while Ankh of Mishra is awful against burn and Eldrazi, I have found it winning me games against Miracles and especially Loam/ Lands.

[Hardcore]

Yeah, it should be HILARIOUS against miracle and lands
😆
Please share if you have any game reports. We don't mind hearing about miracle players being beaten!

[Pittplayer]

I am a long time Pox player. I have been experimenting with a lot of shells. The one I have had the most success with is a more aggressive b/g build. It has 3 Bloodghasts, 1 Nether Spirit, and 2 Empty the Pits. And in my board I run Helm Of Obedience to play around gy hate. By being super aggressive with my gy t1 it almost demands he OPP bring in gy hate. Then when I board out most of my gy stuff and play a Helm into their Rest In Piece.. it totally throws them if there is agame 3. Has anyone tried using Empty the Pits? How about the Helm tech?

[streetMage]

I am a long time Pox player. I have been experimenting with a lot of shells. The one I have had the most success with is a more aggressive b/g build. It has 3 Bloodghasts, 1 Nether Spirit, and 2 Empty the Pits. And in my board I run Helm Of Obedience to play around gy hate. By being super aggressive with my gy t1 it almost demands he OPP bring in gy hate. Then when I board out most of my gy stuff and play a Helm into their Rest In Piece.. it totally throws them if there is agame 3. Has anyone tried using Empty the Pits? How about the Helm tech?

Mind sharing your list?

[OmniStrata]

I found Empty the Pits to be too mana intensive now that I no longer run 4 Dark Rituals. Helm of Obedience is a great counter for RiP but unlike your hyper aggressive GY strategy, I go for a more defensive grindy Pox deck where my only GY resource is Nether Spirit and some people will bring in GY hate just for him which makes me smirk as he's now brought in probably 3-6 dead cards into the deck for my 1 threat. Personally, I'd rather run Tombstalkers for the Delve instead as it hurts a bit less when Terminus hits. Your build being GY heavy probably gets cards into it faster than my own.

Would you run your own Leylines to combo with your Helm in the board? I'm not a fan of oops-I-win combos as they're not consistent. Nobody can win consistently by accident. But that's what tutors like Entomb and what-not are for.

[griselbranding]

Given that we've been exploring control-oriented lists on this thread for a while, I wonder if we might get into some new territory by exploring more aggressive builds.

I'm imagining pox and smallpox would be more like light disruption to keep the opponent off balance just long enough to win instead of a means to establish actual control of the game - more like tempo.

What would a super aggro / tempo version of pox look like?


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