[SCD] Survival of the fittest decklist challenge

[Gheizen64]

I've tried some Nic Fit + survival based lists, and honestly i found the list was nowhere as good as the other lists. The problems were several, mostly the fact that you want therapy and GSZ with vet explorer, and then you add 2-3 decay and 4 survival and 3 vengevines and 2 walla and your list is a pile. Survival need more than 20 creatures to function, and you can't get that unless you cut either decay or GSZ. If you cut GSZ, vet explorer/therapy become way too unreliable to be played. Straight Mana dorks are more reliable, and also a reason for why i found the best thing to play with Survival as a form of disruption is Thalia because it allow you to stay consistently over 20 creatures.

On the other hand, this slightly updated GW list play really nicely. Maybe i should play a singleton arbor as a trick with scryb ranger to get back a creature in hand for survival, but it's probably more cute than good.


Creatures
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Fauna Shaman
3 Scryb Ranger
3 Vengevine
2 Basking Rootwalla
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest

Lands
4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Karakas
2 Gaea's Cradle
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
1 Bayou
2 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest


Scryb ranger and Fauna shaman were added in place of 2 libraries and something else i can't remember. Scryb ranger has obvious sinergy with fauna shaman, allowing it to work as additional survivals (you can activate it 3 times each turn basically, which is good enough). Aside from additional consistency with 2 Shamans alognside 4 SotF, scryb allow for some nice tricks and his flash and pro-blue make him preferably over quirion ranger. Bouncing wasteland targets is really good, and pro blue block delvers, leovolds, strix and whatsnot. Using DRS multiple times a turn is also insane, as 4 damage a turn or 4 lifegain a turn is absolutely relevant.

Something to add is that i believe Elesh Norn and Iona are your best reanimation package with retainers. Griselbrand was tempting but in the end i decided against it because drawing 7 does not allow you to combo anything, at least not immediately. At which point, if you kill in two turns elesh norn + vengevines is better as it make blocks extremely hard. In non-fair MUs, drawing 7 creatures do nothing, while Iona may slow your opponent down considerably, which, again, is something over nothing. Finally, in some situations you can actually cast those two legends, which isn't true of griseldaddy.

With scryb rangers in the deck, i'd like to try KotRs again, but the card just felt so slow when i was playing it. This list feel much smoother than the original GW one, i'll update the OP with it.

[nedleeds]

Turn 1 Show and Tell, you lose!

If people can beat T1 Griselbrand and not play 3x Karakas, I'm sure people can beat t3 Vengevines.

DRS, go.

[Lemnear]

I've tried some Nic Fit + survival based lists, and honestly i found the list was nowhere as good as the other lists. The problems were several, mostly the fact that you want therapy and GSZ with vet explorer, and then you add 2-3 decay and 4 survival and 3 vengevines and 2 walla and your list is a pile. Survival need more than 20 creatures to function, and you can't get that unless you cut either decay or GSZ. If you cut GSZ, vet explorer/therapy become way too unreliable to be played. Straight Mana dorks are more reliable, and also a reason for why i found the best thing to play with Survival as a form of disruption is Thalia because it allow you to stay consistently over 20 creatures.

Fair points. I thought the Explorers & Co might thin the deck down enough to get away with less than 20 creatures. The main reason, I would not want Thalia is that she is really slow on the draw, requires another color (relevant against Wasteland/Bloodmoon) and works subpar with all the non-creature stuff which might be run in some drafts of the deck. I straight up hate Fauna Shaman as the card wasn't good enough post-SotF-ban and sure did not get better. I mean, Fauna has no real combo potential and is slow as fuck. Want to tutor your anti combo piece turn 3? Why run pridemage instead of Reclamation Sage? Why S.Ranger instead of Wirewood Symbiote? Why not tirn this into an Elves variant per sé?

Something to add is that i believe Elesh Norn and Iona are your best reanimation package with retainers. Griselbrand was tempting but in the end i decided against it because drawing 7 does not allow you to combo anything, at least not immediately. At which point, if you kill in two turns elesh norn + vengevines is better as it make blocks extremely hard. In non-fair MUs, drawing 7 creatures do nothing, while Iona may slow your opponent down considerably, which, again, is something over nothing. Finally, in some situations you can actually cast those two legends, which isn't true of griseldaddy.

With scryb rangers in the deck, i'd like to try KotRs again, but the card just felt so slow when i was playing it. This list feel much smoother than the original GW one, i'll update the OP with it.

Did I miss anything or why do you bother with Elesh & Iona if you could run Emrakul and can already tutor Thalia as anti-combo tool? Why run so many fatties, combo-parts and graveyard-depending cards from Vengevine to Scryb to Retainers to KotR (eventually)? I think you are taking away the strengh of Survival of offering aggro decks a combo finish and value engine by tuning it towards a linear combo deck.

[ironclad8690]

Old school rg survival was one of my favorite decks ever.

Flametongue kavu will again have his day, mark my words.

[Megadeus]

Orcish lumberjack rekt

[ironclad8690]

In all seriousness though, I would try to build a jund value version. Something that could keep up with Shardless in terms of CA. Probably worse than the combo versions, but would be fun anyways.

[sdematt]

RGBSA is still very well a thing.

Masticore, FTK, Goyfs, Anger, Bone Shredders, Deranged Hermit. Oh baby.

[nedleeds]

Volrath's Shapeshifter. Phage. Lick me.

[apple713]

Turn 1 Show and Tell, you lose!

If people can beat T1 Griselbrand and not play 3x Karakas, I'm sure people can beat t3 Vengevines.

yup, surgical extraction. Every color has access to it.

[Megadeus]

yup, surgical extraction. Every color has access to it.

But then the survival player can survival up a faerie macabre and save all of their vines except the targeted one obviously because the survival player always has it all and all the exact 1-ofs they need plus the combo plus more mana and creatures in hand.

[ironclad8690]

I tried, but I did not succeed:


1 Dryad Arbor
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Eternal Witness
1 Minister of Pain
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Quirion Ranger
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Ghitu Slinger
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Bone Shredder

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills

// 15 Sideboard
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 4 Brain Maggot
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Thoughtseize


I managed to get a game off of aggro loam thanks to FTK and Meren, but then I lost to Storm and Lands as well. Man I wish a deck like this could be a thing. I had Anger originally but found it too slow.

[Gheizen64]

Just wanted to tell you guys i haven't abandoned the deck. I'm now leaning toward a Bant list to abuse the 4 x Ancestral Recalls. The meta being so inbred atm with some cards seeing high amount of play (Ancestral Recall, FoW, AD) make also me thinks that Meddling Mage could be a real card again.


4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Vengevine
2 Basking Rootwalla
2 Renegade Rallier
1 Wonder
1 Reclamation Sage

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords to plowshares
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder

4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
18 fetches/duals etc...

Essentially the WG list splashing blue for wonder and brainstorms. Wonder make Elesh norn not as important as you can just fly over stalled boards for lethal, and as such it felt like you could just cut the Loyal retainer package for more consistent cards, like Renegade Rallier which is more often than not just a better Eternal Witness in the list (ramp, land destruction or simply value? this guy has it all! It's also a 3/2 which is a decent clock, especially with a wonder in the yard).

[pettdan]

I managed to get a game off of aggro loam thanks to FTK and Meren, but then I lost to Storm and Lands as well. Man I wish a deck like this could be a thing. I had Anger originally but found it too slow.

Well there is, and it was been working pretty well (not a tier 1 strategy) for the last couple of years excluding when Treasure Cruise was wreaking havoc. I'm sure most of you discussing Survival has seen the thread already, especially Gheizen whose name I believe I recognize from the Italian forum (Tipo1) where the deck was being discussed frequently until... I think the Treasure Cruise era actually. I started playing the deck again back in October I think and am currently 19-4-1 with it from playing in my kind of competitive (there's always a few bringing a weird deck) local tournaments.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ing-Pod)/page6

Let me add that I much enjoy reading the discussion in this thread.

[nedleeds]

Just wanted to tell you guys i haven't abandoned the deck. I'm now leaning toward a Bant list to abuse the 4 x Ancestral Recalls. The meta being so inbred atm with some cards seeing high amount of play (Ancestral Recall, FoW, AD) make also me thinks that Meddling Mage could be a real card again.


4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Vengevine
2 Basking Rootwalla
2 Renegade Rallier
1 Wonder
1 Reclamation Sage

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords to plowshares
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder

4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
18 fetches/duals etc...

Essentially the WG list splashing blue for wonder and brainstorms. Wonder make Elesh norn not as important as you can just fly over stalled boards for lethal, and as such it felt like you could just cut the Loyal retainer package for more consistent cards, like Renegade Rallier which is more often than not just a better Eternal Witness in the list (ramp, land destruction or simply value? this guy has it all! It's also a 3/2 which is a decent clock, especially with a wonder in the yard).

Thalia and cantrips just seems awful. I'd play value dudes in place of cantrips.

[Gheizen64]

Thalia and cantrips just seems awful. I'd play value dudes in place of cantrips.

I've learned to stop caring about anti-sinergies and just play 4 ancestral recalls in all of my decks. The anti-sinergy isn't worth playing 4-non ancestral recall cards.

[nedleeds]

Fair enough, SotF is a shuffle effect.

[Megadeus]

I tried, but I did not succeed:


1 Dryad Arbor
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Eternal Witness
1 Minister of Pain
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Quirion Ranger
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Ghitu Slinger
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Bone Shredder

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills

// 15 Sideboard
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 4 Brain Maggot
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Thoughtseize


I managed to get a game off of aggro loam thanks to FTK and Meren, but then I lost to Storm and Lands as well. Man I wish a deck like this could be a thing. I had Anger originally but found it too slow.

I played a 4 color no blue list tonight kind of like this with a couple vengevine in it. Something like:
4 DRS
3 Birds
4 Fauna
2 Pridemage
3 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Thalia, GoT
3 Renegade Rallier
2 Vengevine
1 Revoker
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Siege Rhino
1 Kambal
1 Scooze
1 Sculler
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Shriekmaw

3 STP
2 Decay
1 Sylvan Library

With Natural Order for Prog and Wurm in the board. Went 3-1. Was pretty fun. I'm just super in love with Rallier right now. I like the ability to like, pitch a 2 drop to shaman and then get it back with rally man. Next week I'll play him with wastelands and maybe restoration angels. Or I'll continue the fauna shaman fight. I also want to live the dream and trigger a vine with bllodbraid. It's all terrible, but fun. I think a fireslinger or fire imp is wanted. Also maybe an Orzhov Pontiff

[Sharpened]

Look, I love value Survival lists as much as the next guy. But they aren't why Survival is banned.

Survival was banned because of lists like Gerry's. Combo lists where a resolved Survival meant game over. And judging by a lot of the comments in this thread, people don't seem to understand that.

Abrupt Decay is not an answer to Survival. Sure, it will destroy the card, but the Survival player will do what they have to do and you'll die anyway.

Between the Quirion Rangers and the mana dorks, the deck could generate a ton of mana very quickly. Plan A was an instant kill with the Devourer-Trike-Ooze combo. Plan B involved 12 power of hasty creatures out of nowhere. It was fast, resilient and consistent.

I have no idea whether or not Survival would be problematic in the current metagame. I don't know if Ooze/Devourer is the best kill combo. But if you really want to know if the card should be unbanned, testing durdle-value lists will not give you the answer. I love durdle-value lists. I had tons of fun recurring crap like Spore Frog in my Survival deck back when it was legal, but that's far from the best use of the card.

[frogczar]

Look, I love value Survival lists as much as the next guy. But they aren't why Survival is banned.

Survival was banned because of lists like Gerry's. Combo lists where a resolved Survival meant game over. And judging by a lot of the comments in this thread, people don't seem to understand that.

Abrupt Decay is not an answer to Survival. Sure, it will destroy the card, but the Survival player will do what they have to do and you'll die anyway.

Between the Quirion Rangers and the mana dorks, the deck could generate a ton of mana very quickly. Plan A was an instant kill with the Devourer-Trike-Ooze combo. Plan B involved 12 power of hasty creatures out of nowhere. It was fast, resilient and consistent.

I have no idea whether or not Survival would be problematic in the current metagame. I don't know if Ooze/Devourer is the best kill combo. But if you really want to know if the card should be unbanned, testing durdle-value lists will not give you the answer. I love durdle-value lists. I had tons of fun recurring crap like Spore Frog in my Survival deck back when it was legal, but that's far from the best use of the card.

This and more.

I've hated Survival of the Fittest since it's creation. Way back when Exodus was released. It's far too good. It does way too much for it's cost. It's fine if you guys want to spend time speculating about it but I'm glad it's banned. Good riddance.

It is not the "safest card to unban".

[Begle1]

Can you post a "combo Survival" broken decklist please?

It's a ridiculous card, is it more powerful than Entomb and Griselbrand though? I don't see what it does that much beyond a typical Ooze Reanimator list.

Gives more midrange grindy game I guess.