Vial Maverick is picking up steam. I am so happy right now!
Has anyone looked atmana acceleration (lotus petal, spirit guides, chrome mox etc.) for those explosive turn 1 plays?
I've been thinking that dropping a turn 1 thalia on the play wrecks a lot of decks, and while we're very good at dropping in 3 mana plays on turn 2, we can't accelerate 2 mana plays, which would really help against some matchups.
Maybe it's not worth it, and I'd be happy to hear from someone who's tried that out already.
Of course, people have thought about that :)Originally Posted by DoomRabbit
Has anyone looked at
I've been thinking that dropping a turn 1 thalia on the play wrecks a lot of decks, and while we're very good at dropping in 3 mana plays on turn 2, we can't accelerate 2 mana plays, which would really help against some matchups.
Maybe it's not worth it, and I'd be happy to hear from someone who's tried that out already.
There is one deck that abuses turn 1 Thalia/Dark Confidant and it's called Loam.
Every deck in Legacy has a playstyle, which determines, in which aspect is it better than other decks. For Maverick, this is consistency. Our topdecks in the late game are just so good (our knight filters out lands, and almost every topdeck does something). There is no other deck in Legacy that would be as consistent as Maverick, and that is how we win.
If you add petals/spirits though, you will start winning 20% more matchups due to a powerful start and losing 80% more matchups due to having shitty topdecks.
To make a prairie, it takes a clover and one bee. One clover, a bee, and revery...
Even if the name of the game is consistency, many are moving towards vial maverick which sacrifices consistency for counterspell protection.
I for one would rather play a true vial deck (DnT) rather than change the core of maverick but it does have advantages.
I think it's providing more then just counter protection. The ability to give all the creatures psuedo flash is very strong in some matchups. Some lists are running a more denial heavy plan similar to DnT which makes more sense as that style is very similar. I think the usual style Maverick lists (like the one posted above) use it to just be that much more mana efficient. The deck runs some lands, but always feels very tight still on mana. Vial provides the ability to be very aggressive with mana denial with Wastelands and similar things while freeing that mana up from casting creatures.
Counter protection is nice, but Cavern exists and most of the creature bases make it tricky to play, but not out of the question. Especially in the more DnT style lists where Cavern on Human seems like a no-brainer.
The question is: does Vial adding counter protection, flash, etc. out weight the tutor power of GSZ? It seems in a lot of cases people are leaning towards yes. I agree with the notion to just play DnT at some point, because having extra mana sometimes feels clunky and having ways to use it like Port would seem to be REAL strong.
==========================
Completely different thought:
I have been researching random 1-3 drop G creatures for GSZ targets. My knowledge of the old style Maverick is stronger then new age Black splash, but I still think there can be some meta tweaks that help the deck against the new meta. I might dabble with some of these and see how they do.
Abzan Beastmaster (2G 2/1) - Upkeep draw a card if you control greatest (or tied) toughness dude.
Seems real useful against something like lands where they don't play any threats until the end. Useful against BUG since (save Goyf) most of their stuff is = toughness to most our dudes ~2. Great vs Miracles (Snapcaster, SFM, Clique, etc.) all around 2. Another deck that stalls the board a bunch before going big later. Elves/DnT = free cards.
Anurid Brushhopper (1GW 3/4) - Discard 2: Exile, return to play EoT.
Decent sized body (survives Bolt) and has built in resiliency. Discard 2 is a steep cost, so I don't think it's really worth the tempo swing... still something.
Anurid Scavenger (2G 3/3) - Pro Black. Upkeep, card from graveyard onto bottom of library or sac.
Pro black is relevant today more then before. The recur ability is nice in a GSZ style shell in the ability to grind out removal battles.
Bloodline Shaman (1G 1/1) - Tap: choose a creature type, flip top card = into hand if same, grave if not.
Useful in tandem with stuff like Library/Mirri's Guile to get some extra value. With Courser it seems better with the ability to always know the top card.
Brown Ouphe (G 1/1) - 1G Tap: counter artifact activated ability.
Grindy vs Miracles. Makes opposing Vial bad. Other fringe uses. Don't think he is worth it really, but interesting.
Burning-Tree Shaman (1RG 3/4) - When anyone activates a non mana ability, 1 dmg.
Grindy as all hell. Survives Bolt. Seems fun in the Punishing builds. Con: hits you too.
Cold-Eyed Selkie (1 G/U G/U 1/1) - Islandwalk. Deals combat to player, draw that many.
Most decks run Islands now a days so it's more or less unblockable. With equipment and random Exalted triggers the draw becomes better.
Daybreak Ranger (2G 2/2) - Tap: 2 dmg to flyer. Flips to 4/4 R: Fight.
Kills most the annoying flyers in decks (Delver, Strix, Clique, Wisp, Souls tokens, etc.) The fight seems eh.
Doran (BGW 0/5) - Assign all combat based on toughness.
Most our beaters are symmetric. This nerfs things more, like TNN. Makes things like SFM slightly better.
Dryad Militant (W/G 2/1) - Instant/Sorc exile instead of go to grave.
Nonbo with DRS but seems eh against flashback style decks like Storm, Dredge (Dread Return), any Cabal Therapy, etc. Would be better in a strict GW build no DRS.
Heartwood Storyteller (1GG 2/3) - Player plays noncreature spell, opponents may draw.
Works against you too, but at worst replaces itself when it gets targeted similar to Leovold.
Ichneumon Druid (1GG 1/1) - 4 dmg to an opponent when they cast an instant that isn't their first of the turn.
Seems real silly and old but fun to think about. Burn lol.
Mold Adder (G 1/1) - When opponent casts blue/black spell, may +1/1 counter.
Grindy vs BUG. Dies to every removal in the format. Probably just better being a Mom or Safekeeper. I dunno what U/B player wouldn't instantly removal this with one of its many removal spells.
Vial is much more than counter protection. Vial also provides:
1) great reusable tempo (as opposed to e.g. lotus petal suggestions, which are not reusable), and, in particular, faster online equipments with Stoneforge Mystic - we can activate it and get more creatures into play from AEther Vial simultaneously. And faster/less predictable equipments do generate CA.
2) virtual advantage over opponents who draw their Dazes and Force of Wills, but sometimes literally don't have anything to counter, as we don't cast anything after the Vial, at least in the first game (postboard they might probably side it all out). They may try to shuffle these away with fetches, but there is no guarantee that they won't just draw some more counterspells or lands.
3) sorcery-speed board wipe protection (at least partial, as the creature vialed in will survive it) - not to mention prelate for 6 against Terminus. And board wipes are something that Maverick is in particular
4) 2 less lands maindeck (21 rather than 23) - partially compensates for drawing Vials in the late game.
5) battle tricks - sometimes, opponent will not attack you just because you have vial for 2, and who knows what that might be.
6) Thalia + Wastelands going even faster and harsher.
7) and so on and so on
It is true that Maverick loses consistency with Vials, but the tempo gain is just so big that I've won some games against GSZ Maverick versions.
Now, to the Vial Maverick vs D&T debate. Before expressing any points myself, I will let myself point out that top8 meta currently consists of Maverick (mostly Vial version) for 2% and D&T for 4%. Not that much of a difference, and it keeps changing towards Maverick lately.
Reasons to play D&T over Vial Maverick:
1) better manabase, more Cavern of Souls
2) better taxing due to Ports
Reasons to play Vial Maverick of D&T:
1) better choice of creatures:
a) mainboard graveyard-hate from Deathrite Shaman - something D&T lacks a lot imho! Sure, they get their Rest in Peace several times after sb, but it can be not fast enough. Also, a possibility to win without attacking, e.g. vs Ensnaring Bridge.
b) Qasali Pridemage can be a huge deal in fair matchups (and non-fair as well)
c) Knight - good Show&Tell pick against Emrakul, Wasteland engine, big body, etc.
d) Scryb Ranger is just sooo good
2) more consistency - land filtering, instant-speed land search, generally stronger cards
3) more flexible sideboard options, including Decay, Zealous Persecution and Thoughtseize
4) people don't know the deck that well, at least yet, and are not 100% sure what to expect, which is always a big deal in Legacy.
There are matchups, that are slightly better for D&T, such as Nic Fit or 4c delver, and matchups that are (imo) slightly better for Maverick - Storm or BUG Nemesis. It really depends on the meta, I guess.
I do have both decks and actually like Maverick more, possibly because I had more experience with playing it. Although what to play - is always your own choice :)
To make a prairie, it takes a clover and one bee. One clover, a bee, and revery...
I have thought more and more about Standstill and adding Blue when we start playing Vial. Going towards more of a Bant shell we lose DRS but we gain things like Counterspells, Brainstorm (great with KotR shuffles), TNN (super resistance). Standstill I don't think adds anything unless we play FoW or Daze or something where we can actually draw into counters in response to stuff. Dunno if diluting into Blue takes away too much of the Maverick ish ness, also plays odd with things like Thalia where now we only have a few things that are affected.
Bant is an existing (though almost forgotten by now) deck that runs Stoneforge, KotR and Brainstorm/Ponder/FoW package in one deck, and even though it has a couple of similarities it's really distanced from Maverick in playstyle - it's in any way not your Legacy Hatebears. And I wouldn't play Vial there, just no real use, that deck is not exactly about creatures :p
In addition, Sultai is just plain better than Bant atm. There has been a 4-color deck few months ago though called "Dark Bant" that made some use of Leovolds, Brainstorms, Abrupt Decays and Stoneforge Mystics, it seemed fun.
To make a prairie, it takes a clover and one bee. One clover, a bee, and revery...
How different are you guys finding playing with vial is?
I have a tournament on the weekend and I'm considering what to put in my list. I'm familiar/comfortable with the GSZ version, but I do own vials, so easy enough to transition to a list like this one. (features no prelates/recruiters which I can't get in time)
I just haven't tested with the vial list. I can probably get a few games in the day before, but that's about it. I have played other vial decks before (modern hate bears W and G/W mostly), so I'm not new to that at least.
If it's not too different and the power level is there (definitely looks that way, vial seems to be beating GSZ results-wise recently), I'll happily swap my GSZ for vials.
--EDIT--
Here's my current GSZ list for comparison
4 Deathrite
1 Noble Hierarch
3 Mother of Runes
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Thalia Guardian of Thraben
2 Flex creatures: Undecided between 2x Rallier, 2x spirit of the labyrinth, 2x thalia heretic cathar, Mix of sylvan library/Titania/tireless tracker
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 GSZ
1 Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
I've just had a Vial vs Zenith Maverick game in Cockatrice (I lost 1-2 in the end, but it was close). It almost felt like playing vs Miracles at some point :) I needed to kill him as fast as possible, as Zenith version topdecks are just better.
With Vial, you sacrifice some gas of your deck for faster speed and Vial shennanigans. Your Thalia/Wasteland interaction becomes much better, especially in the part where you don't need a lot of lands in play to pay for your overcosted Zeniths with Thalia. I would borrow a Prelate though if I were you, he is insane in many matchups, and maybe even play the Zenith version if there's no way to find a Prelate for the game.
It's not too different indeed to play Vials. If you played Vial decks and Zenith Maverick before, you will figure it out in no time ;) The only thing that's slightly different is mulligans. I often keep a one-lander hand with Vial, sometimes even on the draw and with a non-basic land (with 6 cards on the draw, I even once kept a zero-lander hand - risky, but was worth it). In a nutshell, there should be serious reasons in order not to keep a hand with a Vial. There have been many games where I had 2 vials and 0 lands at the end of the game :D
To make a prairie, it takes a clover and one bee. One clover, a bee, and revery...
In my testing last night Abzan Beastmaster seemed real nice in fair matchups. On the play with a DRS he was able to draw me like 3 extra cards before opponents got a Goyf in play. Then again I did have magical happy Christmas land (vial version) where I had a Scryb Ranger with a Vial and DRS, Wasteland, Thalia, and Rallier.... it was gross. In a turn with like 2 land I was able to Vial in SFM, get a Sword, Drop the sword for 3, bounce a Forest/untap DRS, drop Forest, DRS + Forest equip to Scryb Ranger, swing.
Vial allows for some real friggin explosive stuff to happen. I dunno if I want the Cradle still in the tighter Vial version, I still feel it's wrong running Batterskull without a Cradle. Rallier continues to impress me in this more fair meta. Abzan Beastmaster will be the focus of my testing over the weekend.
Hi again.
I want switch 1-2 DRS on birds or noble, coz so many time he can't give me some mana.
For example, atm I play 4 drs, 1 bird and 1 noble. What is better, 2-2-2, 2-3-1 or 3-2-1?
My meta is: 3-4 bug, 2 eldrazi, 1 burn/dnt/painter/Omni/elfs/miracles
GSZ ver.
Depends on other stuff too. If you are running cheaper EQ BoP might be nice being able to fly. If your splash is more heavy in black, BoP probably works a little better. If you are closer to the GW shell, then Noble is nice because of Exalted.
I have been running 4 DRS 1 NH (vial version). 5 dorks seems about right, 6 seems a little much esp. in a GSZ version probably running slightly more lands and Dryad Arbor for GSZ 0 (extra ish "dork). If your black splash isn't too heavy try running 3-1-1 and see which works out more. Birds having flying might help more chump blocking in matchups, holding EQ, etc. Where NH might work better in spots where creatures are tighter and the Exalted comes into play a lot more.
I feel like give your meta the 4th death rite is much better than an additional birds or hierarch. If you're really set on switching one out I would say the noble is going to be the better of the two
It is also possible the curve is too high. I find cutting 3+ drops is often as good or better than squeezing a 6th mana dork.
Same, I always feel weird about having more 3 drops. I personally only run the 4 knights, but yes I think 5 should be the maximum number most lists should play main deck (gsz version), 5 dorks has always felt correct.
Thanks for answer folks(:
I'll play 3-1-1.
About 3rd drops. I play 4 KotR and 2 Rallier. Last guy showed well himself in last tournament.
I've played many 3drops that all proved themselves powerful. I've cut most of them because mana becomes an issue and I get to the whole "6th mana dork to feed the 5th/6th 3+ creature. It's really about power level vs consistency.
If you really want to squeeze in another high cc card--cut a Plow or Mom for the 6th mana dork.
After all this 3 drop discussion, I thought about trying a list with knight of the reliquary as the only 3 drop and it ran way more smoothly. I think that I like this configuration with zenith, maybe x1 tireless tracker, but nothing more.
https://deckstats.net/decks/2563/672755-maverick-v4
This was what I played today (finished 3-2, which is pretty good for the time that I've been playing this deck). List was okay, only awkward card was spirit of the labyrinth (not super good when playing sylvan library). I think that I like the mainboard decays.
Won vs burn, infect, manaless dredge. Lost to UR delver and the mirror.
Quick questions on the matches that I lost. First of all, which is the key to winning vs delver decks? it really is a tempo battle, and feels like whoever wins the dice takes the match. If I was on the play, his answers and threats were lining up one turn too late an viceversa. Not sure if it really is this way or I'm misinterpreting how this pairing works.
Similar question for the mirror. My opponent told me that stoneforge is one really good card there but I don't really get why (equipments are miserable against decay). Also, which is the most important target for swords to plowshares? plowing mother of runes as soon as possible is probably the best, but knights get out of hand quickly too.
I play a very similar mainboard, only difference is I play dark depths combo over cradle. Versus delver, getting a turn 1 dork is always pretty important as they either answer it with a counter/bolt or you have the mana advantage letting you play around daze very easily. Things to keep in mind would be to be aware of daze. When you can play around it, do it. I generally try to play out the cards I need the least first. Generally this means I hold up my thalia's as that card destroys delver. If you have multiples of cards such as thalia and stoneforge play those out first. Sticking a stoneforge is huge as delver decks of all varieties generally can't beat a sword of fire and ice or a jitte. Most of your threats are lights out against delver, they win through super aggressive starts backed by counter magic and disruption.
Against the mirror stoneforge is highly important as maverick also has a tough time beating a jitte. The first player with an active jitte will likely win the game. Maverick never seems to run more than 3 copies of abrupt decay and we don't have much library manipulation to find abrupt decay making it somewhat likely that your jitte will stick.
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