They suggested the following for sideboarding in the mirror:Originally Posted by ironclad8690
+2 Disfigure, +2 Hymn to Tourach, +1 Murderous Cut, +1 Garruk Relentless
-4 Force of Will, -2 Abrupt Decay
While I mostly agree, I would personally leave the Hymns out and keep Decays in. Like I said earlier, I don't like Hymns in the mirror as they are bad topdecks/cascades. Would rather have Decay to answer their threats or kill a Strix to push through damage.
Also, with some lists playing Leovold, I think Decays are now completely mandatory to keep in the mirror. Leo just hoses us too hard if we let it live.
I'm not in love with DRS against Miracles as it doesn't represent a threat on its own, which basically forces us to play out another creature and make Terminus a 2-for-1 or better. Snapcaster puts us in the weird spot of either holding up DRS activation all the time (and thus never actually getting to drain with it) or activating it and allowing a Snapcaster in response. I still wouldn't side it out though, as it partially protects us from Blood Moon and Back to Basics.
Against miracles I usually sideboard lightly: something like -2 Baleful Strix, -1 Jitte, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Dread of Night, +1 Library/Jace
Quasimoff, I think I played against you online yesterday (was on turbo depths, you wrecked me pretty hard with Miracles)
Nobody plays Legacy anymore, the tournaments are all too crowded
Yeah, we played =)
I think making terminus a 2-for-1 argument is pretty poor in this matchup, in particular. Post board, you usually attack from so many angles, ie garruk, jace, liliana, hymn, visions etc, that you can usually generate enough value to keep up. I think you always want to present two threats, Drs + something. Otherwise swords is infinite time, which is basically all we want to have happen. Goyf is literally the least scary card in the matchup, as it does not gain, or represent, any value.
To be honest I like to take out all copies of Strix and Hymns and bring in Rod, Needle, Clique, Plague or NoSB, and K. Grip or Library. I've always debated switching a Goyf for ScOoze, but I've never done it. If I see a RIP, I'll take out Goyf right off the bat.
Has anyone thought about Liliana the Last Hope? I just found out this card existed today.
Quote.
Deathrite Shaman is very good vs Miracles.
Tarmo is not great.
I side out Tarmo vs Miracle.
Fair enough. I was more speaking from general experience than in the context of this matchup specifically. I have never sided out DRS in Shardless vs Miracles.
I think the question is not DRS vs Goyf, but rather Goyf vs Hymn/Strix. Strix's body is near useless, but at least it cantrips. Goyf as you said doesn't actually generate value, but at it presents a must-answer threat. I have won games against Miracles on the back of a Goyf. You guys don't always have the answer for it.
Hymn is trickier to evaluate, but I like it a lot in the matchup. It can give you random free wins against bad keeps by the Miracles player, and hitting lands can stop Miracles from getting going. The matchup gets grindy, but I've found that the Miracles player usually still has 2-3 cards in hand late in the game rather than it coming down to an actual topdeck war.
So in summary my order of things to remove would be:
1. Jitte
2. Strix
3. Goyf
Nobody plays Legacy anymore, the tournaments are all too crowded
I thought about LtLH as a sideboard option against D&T and Elves. But is she really better than sweepers or -1/-1 enchantments?
Nobody plays Legacy anymore, the tournaments are all too crowded
I was thinking more against the grinder decks like the mirror or other BUG variants as opposed to Siding out LotV.
But even as I'm saying this, I'm starting to disagree with myself on LtLH.
I disagree.
I played Shardless a lot before switching to other highly customized lists of BUG Control, and I would never sideboard out Strixes before Goyfs.
I don't like too much Hymn To Tourach since Miracle can play well with an empty hand with the top 3 cards of his library effectively representing his hand; plus, HTT could be a dead draw later in the game, and we expect the game to go long.
As for deathrites vs goyfs, both have their upsides and downsides. The fear of opposing snapcaster while going for the drain effect can be easily circumvented by targeting your own graveyard.
Goyf is dumb, but I fear opposing Jaces since we have only Maelstrom Pulse to deal with it, while he has REBs to deal with our copies. An unchecked goyf could theoretically represent a threat to him, while a lone shaman would represent nothing. Because of this, I would consider keeping some goyf over shamans. In the past I used to board out some copy of each of them.
Last sunday I played against two miracles (on of which was Bonanni, winner of GP Lille) and won both; but I was playing BUG Control without shardless, so maybe this considerations don't apply exactly. This time I tried boarding out each copy of shaman and I was satisfied with that. We aren't trying to tempo them, so the drain effect is irrelevant. It could be important only to prevent them from flashbacking something, but as I said I think it's more important to fight them over the board state, since an unanswered Jace is a loss. I don't care fast mana early since the game is going long anyway, and I don't care life gain or drain for the same reason: you don't win on that. So all in all, I am reconsidering siding out shamans before goyfs, or at least keeping a couple of goyfs.
Ciao Talpa!
Honestly i don't have never side out Deathrite because he can remove a Plow or, much considerable, some REB effects.
In add to this, he can give me the chance to play some 3CC @turn two.
I'm in trouble for Hymn.
Hymn in the early game can help us and, sometimes, can destroy his hand...sometimes, you've right, is not relevant, especially if the Miracle player set up the Top and we are in the mid game.
What's your sideboard plan?
I've been testing a Shardless list similar to yours btm10 and also a Team America midrange one (no goyfs) and I'm feeling that Shardless lists are stronger (but harder to play, at least for me).
I seen posts from you on both threads. Do you agree with me that Shardless seems stronger for the actual meta? Or it depends to much on every local metagame?
Why Leo is on the sideboard? Wich MU is he comming in?
Thanks!
Could you share your BUG Control list? I've thought about switching to a successful control list for fun, but I need to know if I already own most of the pieces.
My next words aren't for you specifically, but on the matter as a whole. I also prefer Shaman over Goyf because I don't really want the game to go long. When the game goes long, Miracles has a better chance of winning because it is a control deck. Shardless does a really good job acting like an aggro or control deck, but it's really a midrange deck and that makes Shaman extremely important. Shaman is a win condition in itself, as I have won from six drains and nothing else on the board, and I don't think people know this, but Shaman also kept Snap in check in Modern which is why Snap's price exploded after his banning. Shaman also lets you play through Moon if you have just a swamp or forest in play, and I can still attack if there's a RiP in play. When things go really bad, Shaman is the better choice between the two.
It seems to me like the debate isn't Goyf vs Shaman but rather Goyf vs Strix.
Is it better to have a 2-mana do-nothing (essentially) card that cantrips, or a 2-mana threat that's easily answered but can be very good if they don't answer it?
Strix pitches to Force, which is at least somewhat relevant I think.
Nobody plays Legacy anymore, the tournaments are all too crowded
That could fall into what you bring in. I still run a Clique in my board so I will only be losing a single blue card. My other cards are also more impactful than Hymns and Strix.
tl;dr summary of below: It depends largely on the overall composition of your deck, but generally no.
Personally, I'm a proponent of the school of "Just Go F***ing Kill Them", i.e. there are no wrong threats, but there are certainly wrong answers. In the framework of an Aggro-Control BUG deck, Tarmogoyf seems to embody that philosophy quite well and demands a timely answer, whereas a 1/1 (regardless of its bonus abilities) doesn't present much of a problem -- Strix can more easily be ignored.
People often look at Goyf and just think of it purely as a vanilla beater, but it's important to consider its role in the Legacy metagame. It's functionally a defensive WALL against the vast majority of aggressive creatures (which is where you really want one of these guys in the first place), and by nature of its sheer size basically has a form 'death touch'. And unlike Strix, Goyf can typically survive an encounter against another threat and still go on to kill your opponent in a _reasonable_ number of swings. So from the perspective of providing defense, Goyf is typically better aside from against Flying creatures.
You're actually saving some space in your deck by playing Tarmogoyf that would otherwise need to be devoted towards a reasonable win-condition. A frequent issue with playing a durdly control deck is TIME, and trying to whittle your opponent down with an army of 1/1's and 2/2's is often going to result in a draw, regardless of how absurd and inevitable your board-state is. I can't help but shake my head at people who play BUG decks while cutting Tarmogoyf entirely, and are then left wondering why their overall win% starts to plummet. Especially given how common Delver variants are in the current metagame, playing Tarmogoyf seems like an obvious choice considering how good it is at dealing with just about everything not actually named Delver.
Games often end up in a Draw-Go state, and it's here where you can very clearly see the difference between playing a bunch of defensive do-nothings versus having some Big Guns. And a lot of games also come down to the last few points of life total, where attacking with a 5/6 makes a significant difference in the match outcome versus only being able to swing in with a 1/1.
THAT ALL SAID:
Strix is a pretty decent sideboard-ish type card, and I can understand why a lot of decks choose to play a few copies to bring in. But I think that Strix is a fairly late pick in terms of the array of creature options available in BUG colors (especially now with Leovold), and I'm saying this regardless of where upon the Aggro/Control spectrum your deck lies. I just think that people sometimes get blinders on and remember the few games where their Strix just happened to hold off an Eldrazi or Griselbrand or whatever, but then forget all of the games where Tarmogoyf would've been a lot better.
Strix is admittedly amazing in UBR Tezzerator, but that's a completely different archetype, and it's great there for different reasons than in BUG Control.
MORE SPECIFICALLY:
If I were going to play BUG Cascade, my main 60 would look like this:
22 Lands (Lejay's mix, *maybe* -1 Land for +1 Ponder)
4 DRS
4 Goyf
4 Agent
3 Leovold
2 Liliana
1 Jace TMS
4 Vision
4 BStorm
4 ADecay
1 MPulse
2 TDeluge (or *maybe* 1/1 split with Yahenni's Expertise)
1 SLibrary
(and *maybe* find room to cut a card or 2 for 1-2 Fatal Push)
I'm still a fan of Lejay's overall philosophy of playing a stream-lined version of the deck that sacrifices the game 1 combo matchup in order to have the perfect midrange package against the field. There just aren't enough slots to justify running Baleful Strix here, and if I were going to add more creatures I would first consider the following: Tombstalker; True-Name Nemesis; Vendilion Clique. And really, Strix would still be fairly low down the list of sideboard choices.
Excuse me for the off-topic, but in response to Hrothgar (ciao, www.tipo1.it è ancora online? :P) and Krimson Viper
My latest list of BUG Control WITHOUT Shardless:
10 fetch
1 swamp
1 forest
1 ISLAND
2 wastelands
3 underground sea
2 tropical island
1 bayou
4 deathrite shamans
3 baleful strix
3 tarmogoyfs
3 true-name nemesis
2 leovold
1 snapcaster mage
4 force of will
3 thoughtseize
3 abrupt decay
2 fatal push
1 maelstrom pulse
2 jace
1 garruk relentless
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
1 painful thruths
-------SIDEBOARD-------
2-3 surgical extraction
1 grafdigger's cage
1 vendilion clique
2 invasive surgery
1 flusterstorm
1 pithing needle
1 null rod
2 marsh casualties
1 dread of night
1 to the slaughter
1 misdirection
How I boarded against miracle last sunday:
OUT 3 seize 4 shamans
IN 1 surgical 1 vendilion 2 invasive surgery 1 needle 1 rod 1 dread of night 1 to the slaughter (going to 61 - you can avoid dread of night if you see they don't play mentors)
But all of this is quite off-topic since this Bug Control list plays a bit differently than shardless (especially tempo-wise, it's better at controlling and maybe also at having a resilient threat -nemesis, especially if you manage to surgical or delirium-counter their terminus- but slower).
Your list belongs in the sister thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...Thread)/page66
He knows, I just asked him to post it. It's my fault, my bad.
Hello everyone,
I recently played some tournaments with Shardless BUG and I met mixed success. Here's my 75 :
MAINDECK = 60
LANDS 22
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacomb
2 Misty Rainforest
CREATURES 15
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
4 DRS
1 Leovold
2 Baleful Strix
SPELLS 20
4 Brainstorm
4 FOW
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Ancestral Vision
2 Hymn to Tourach
PLANESWALKER 3
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace the Mind Sculptor
SIDEBOARD = 15
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Fatal Push
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
3 Toughtseize
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Graffdigger's Cage
1 Sylvan Library
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Garruk Relentless
More particularly (but not only), I played numerous grindy games against Jund, Delver decks (BUG, 4 Colors), Nic Fit, BUG-TNN and I realized that I mainly struggle with sideboarding. I often know what I want to sideboard in for sure, but I think that I fail to see the purpose of some wide-utility cards post-side that perhaps should be cut. I would like to go over those cards and discuss them with you in an overall approach more than in a specific MU approach (but maybe it would be best to do so) :
- Hymn to Tourach
I don't know when to sideboard out this card because I have the feeling that it can be relevant against fair decks, specifically grindy MU, but also against some combo when I need to shred my opponent's hand. I think I keep it post-side against Jund, BUG Delver and Nic-fit maybe more than I should. I never consider it to be an obvious dead card. How do you consider HTT ?
I also have a specific doubt ; do you keep HTT against Elves ? A good friend of mine is playing the archetype based on Julian Knab's decklist/guidelines and tells me that Elves cuts parts of the Combo (NO) and aims at the overload of creatures with Glimpse of Nature and grind with DRS/Wirewood/Visionnary game 2 and 3. I usually side-in Thoughtseize in place of HTT to get rid of Glimpse etc but Tourach also proved to be efficient in conjunction with spot/mass removal in order to limite the number of elves on the battlefield.
- Force of Will
FOW is obviously played as a mandatory safety against combo, but it's also sometimes great against fair decks to counter PW or problematic cards. On one hand I tend to take them all out against non-combo MU, thinking that it's best to play specific cards against specific threats. But on the other hand I'm sometimes willing to keep 2 in fair MU to have a bit more security and control over the game state as the card advantage of Shardless BUG can support pitch of the FOW.
-Basic Forest / Basic Swamp
Because of my hesitation regarding sideboarding, I regularly find myself cutting the basic forest (plus the swamp sometimes) against non-wasteland / non-Blood Moon decks. It usually doesn't matter "that much" (especially with the -1 Forest) since we run 4 DRS, but I don't think it's a real solution. Do you also sideboard out some basic lands or do you never alter your landcount, whatever the MU is ?
- Sylvan Library
Auto-include against any deck that plays attrition. Not welcomed if the opponent is too fast like Burn, Combo etc. But beyond that simple dichotomy, when do you choose to play it/not play it ? I understand that it connects with many purpose of Shardless : generating filter advantage, generating raw CA if need be, looking for specific answer in conjunction with fetchlands, setting up cascade with shardless.
- Shardless Agent
Since Shardless Agent is the core of the deck, I don't feel I can ever shave it. I can't find MU where it doesn't do anything since it gives us CA, pressure and pitch to FOW. Of course it's all-star when CA matters the most but what is it's purpose in the others MU according to you ?
BONUS QUESTION :
What do you think of Tombstalker nowadays as a singleton in the SB ? Since the printing of Fatal Push, the resurgence of TNN (thanks to Reid Duke) and the niche of Gurmag, don't you think that it could replace a Goyf post-side in BUG and mirror MU to apply pressure with evasion while dodging Push, Decay ?
Thank you for reading.
Greetings,
Spaker
I used to cut some number of DRS vs miracles, but after speaking with a few miracle players I think this is wrong. I leave in DRS vs everything.
Tarmogoyf is trimable vs combo imo, you only really need multiples when your opponent can kill one or outclass your board. I go down to 2 pretty often vs combo. Also shaveable vs miracles, but I would never board out all 4 vs them.
Shardless I pretty much never cut, because post board your cascades are better (more discard vs combo, more removal vs fair).
Strixes I leave in if I need U count for FoW, but I board out vs TNN decks that don't have delver. I take out vs elves and miracles too, but if you've know your elf opp board out the entire comho id leave em.
Leovold I like all of the time, even vs D&T, but I dont think you want more than 1-2.
Brainstorm I have experimented cutting vs Elves, because I like as much removal and discard as possible, but I think this is probably not correct. It works for me though. Usually leave all 4.
Visions I shave vs some faster decks. Generally leave all vs slower decks (midrange/control). Only 1-2 copies come out ever.
Decay only comes out vs combo. Sometimes I leave 1 vs sneak for blood moon. Sometimes trim 1 vs lands.
FoW I cut vs mirror and grindy hymn decks, leave all vs tempo decks (including slower tempo like bant and TNN Bug), cut vs most midrange decks, leave vs combo.
I tend to board out Hymn vs fast fair decks where the board is the most important, like Grixis Delver, RUG Delver. I leave it in vs most grindy decks, and sometimes even bring my 3rd from sb (for mirror and jund and nic fit). I trim 1 if I need something to take out vs miracles or eldrazi on the draw. More trimable on the draw, can see increasing on the play.
Liliana I leave in most of the time, but cut vs dredge/zombardment. She really helps the lategame with jace. Can see cutting vs infect and elves, but I tend not to. Some ppl say to board out vs miracles, but I don't.
Thoughtseize (if in main) comes outside vs tempo and midrange. Still unsure vs d&t & Miracle.
Jace comes out vs most fast tempo, stays vs slow tempo (4c bug delver and slower). Cut vs infect and elves.
Maelstrom pulse stays mostly, but is cuttable vs combo that doesnt have sneak attack, or elves, infect. My philosophy is to overload removal vs elves and infect though, so I leave it.
Deluge comes out vs decks that dont have creatures. I sometimes leave vs potential empty the warrens, cut vs miracle (unless mentor heavy), cut vs Burn.
I mostly leave all lands, cut forest sometimes vs combo, cut wasteland sometimes vs miracle. Board in scrubland, tundra, savannah (if on Meddling Mage board) vs tempo decks that are more mana denial based, and d&T.
Usually leave in all Tar Pit.
Sideboard cards are mostly self explanatory, sylvan library I only board in vs non combo non fast tempo. Needle stays out unless SDT, Vial, Lands, Painter, Belcher, sneak attack decks, inkmoth. Probably some others. Meddling mages come in vs miracle, combo, lands, loam, jund. Usually vs miracles ill name terminus, but many cards are namable.
Most of my sideboarding philosophies are from gerry t articles or lejay, but I always found midrange fairly easy to sideboard with compared to tempo or combo decks.
Hi! I haven't play this deck in a while and I've noticed that mosts of the lists run 3 copies of A Visions. Usually this was a 4 of, is there a reason why? Since cascading into this was the bomb
Also, how do we beat Lands? I doesn't seem easy at all
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