[Deck] Turbo Depths

[DNSolver]

Dread of Night doesn't do the same things as Walking Ballista against Miracles. Dread of Night does nothing against Jace, and can be killed by Wear/Tear or Disenchant that is being brought in to hit our Pithing Needles / Sylvan Libraries.

Ballista + Academy Ruins / Volrath's Stronghold provides a source of inevitability that Miracles is threatened by. Same idea behind Eye of Ugin out of Cloudpost decks: Eye will search out a big idiot every turn for the rest of the game. The problem is that Dark Depths struggles to present inevitability without being vulnerable to the pressure that Miracles is forced to apply.

I have tested various inevitability plans in Depths before. Each plan, from Eye+Emrakul to Urza's Factory to Nephalia Drownyard, forces your Miracles opponent to be aggressive, to kill you first. The problem is that many of these plans either can't do anything against a fast Mentor or Jace that will kill you first, or by them time they can do something it's too late, usually due to high mana costs compared to the mana costs of Miracles' threats.

Ballista can be cast for 2 mana, 4 mana, 6 mana, or perhaps even 8 mana in the late game. You most likely will not have to spend your entire turn to present a Ballista in the late game, while you would need all of your mana to make a 2/2 from Urza's Factory. Ballista can shoot a Mentor or a Jace in the midgame, unlike many of the other inevitability engines.

For these reasons, I think Ballista + Ruins or Stronghold is a consideration for an inevitability plan. I haven't had time to test Ballista much except one time against Death and Taxes, which I have recorded on my Youtube channel. It is Round 2 of my most recent league. Ballista for 2 seemed pretty strong in the matchup.

Edit: Volrath's + Vampire Hexmage is effective against Jace, not denying that. Pretty powerful actually. But it doesn't do anything vs. a Mentor + spells.

[adrieng]

I can't see how a 1/1 or a 2/2 is what you call applying pressure, you will rarely have it bigger. They have all the time of the world to entreat you. Really ballista looks bad to me.

[Claymore]

I'm interested to see it in action. If you're putting it out as a 2/2, then you can build it up in the following turns anyway. Depths can be a very patient and passive combo deck if it doesn't kill in the first two turns...meaning you run into mana sink problems.

Plus it's a good way to divert the opponent's attention while you amp up the main kill plan and kill them out of nowhere.

I think it's probably better to side with Volrath's Stronghold in that case. Buying back Needles is great but I don't know if they die all the time, and we run 4 anyway. It seems more synergistic with Hexmage, whose death is part of our gameplan.

[adrieng]

As for academy ruin it might good but with a chalice of the void/needle recursion in side ; I see that way better.
It might look very interestering didn't thought of academy ruin before but it looks really awesome with COTV and needle.

[solnox]

I'd love to try the Walking Balista but with them at 12 each, I dont know if its worth it. I'll wait to see how you guys do before I buy in. Currently very happy with my sideboard plan. @dnsolver How did you feel without any lock pieces like Sphere of Resistance or Chalice vs Combo decks.

[DNSolver]

I'd love to recur Chalice instead, but a clever Miracles player will blow you out when you try to combo:

You: End of Turn make Marit Lage
LOL Miracles: Wear targeting Chalice, Swords Marit Lage or ROFL top Terminus.

Combo decks are pretty easy for this deck. We have discard, Crop Rotation for Bog / Karakas, and our own combo to pressure them. I bring in Sylvan Library against combo decks so that every turn I can aim to draw 1 card that fights them and 1 card that helps my own combo.

[warfordium]

didn't take exhaustive notes but i played 7 post-board games with this sideboard

4x Walking Ballista
1x Academy Ruins
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Sylvan Library
1x Winter Orb
1x Nissa, Vital Force
4x Surgical Extraction


against a decent Miracles player who plays mentor and predict builds mostly. it was not close to being close, as LSV would put it. 6-1 in my favour. I did not bring in Surgical but need to keep them in my board for the numerous Br Reanimator players who are appearing locally.

one factor in most of the games was needle on top (which i had within the first 3 turns in almost every game)—once on the stack it forces them to crack fetches, then shuts down their card quality engine nicely. once that is in place, i strove to assemble ballista/ruins while threatening the combo. Any sort of threat recursion is difficult for miracles.

as local Painter guru McBain (both IRL and on this board) will attest from the Painter perspective, the threat of the (fast) combo is enough to make opponents respect it and adapt their game plan, such that mediocre beats get the job done. getting them off their game plan is enough, and getting the ballista into the graveyard will drain them of swords and flashed back wear/tear to the point where they are really soft to the combo.

i'm sold on this plan, to be honest. its so strong that I think I'm going to cut Winter Orb and Nissa to add dread of night (loads of DnT locally as well). i recommend you try it, even if you have to borrow Walking Ballista from your local standard player for sanctioned events.

[Claymore]

Was Academy Ruins any different than Volrath's Stronghold? My only concern is limiting that package to only Miracles where it has play against many decks, but if it turns the Miracles matchup that strongly by recurring Needles and such then likely a good investment.

Quick test and you can still get rekt by Surgical on Ballista, but it seems potent enough of a threat that you can use it to overload their answers. Surgical on Ballista is still better than on Depths.

[DNSolver]

@warfordium: I am delighted to hear you got some testing in with it.

I have the same questions as Claymore:

1) Would Volrath's Stronghold have been approximately as good, or was the ability to get back Expedition Map and Pithing Needle worthwhile enough?

2) How did you sideboard?

3) How did your opponent sideboard? This specifically is pretty important - did he bring in his own Surgicals for Ballista / Depths? Did he leave in Entreat / Mentor?

Just a little more detail on your testing results would be great.

[adrieng]

Did they play entreat the angel at least 2-3 I mean, cause it's clearly the way to go against a ballista version.

[Claymore]

Entreat hasn't been getting as much play lately. They've been all about Mentor in the popular builds I've seen.

[Climax]

Random note:
Why cant we just play both? Ruins and Stronghold?

Ruins will return Needles, Maps and Ballista while Stronghold can also return Hexmages, which is good vs. Planeswalkers, Vials and sometimes even CotV. More importantly, we can bring it in vs. DnT (cuz recurring Ballistas are even better)

Isn't this enough value to justify a single sb slot?

My list since today for reference:

//Mana
1 Bayou
4 Blooming Marsh
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Verdant Catacombs

//Combo
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Vampire Hexmage

//Utility
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe

//Protection
1 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Not of This World
3 Pithing Needle
4 Thoughtseize

//Tutors
4 Crop Rotation
2 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Scrying

//GoodStuff
2 Sylvan Library

//Acceleration
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal

//Sideboard
SB: 4 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Academy Ruins
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Volrath's Stronghold
SB: 4 Walking Ballista

[DNSolver]

If we played both Academy Ruins and Volrath's Stronghold, it would be to beat Surgical Extraction, not for any other reason. Not the worst idea.

[Negator77']

If we played both Academy Ruins and Volrath's Stronghold, it would be to beat Surgical Extraction, not for any other reason. Not the worst idea.

Well, running both could have benefits as a way to mitigate opposing Wastelands/GQ's out of D+T. As an aside, Ballista is nice as a clean answer to Magus of the Moon.

Entreat hasn't been getting as much play lately. They've been all about Mentor in the popular builds I've seen.

Almost all of the recent winning lists I've seen have been on 2 Entreats main. My impression is that this is a response to the current metagame and the rise of various BUG decks. Even if you look at all the versions dating back a bit, it's a 2 of in 82% of Miracles builds.

[jdc5011]

Random note:
Why cant we just play both? Ruins and Stronghold?

Ruins will return Needles, Maps and Ballista while Stronghold can also return Hexmages, which is good vs. Planeswalkers, Vials and sometimes even CotV. More importantly, we can bring it in vs. DnT (cuz recurring Ballistas are even better)

Isn't this enough value to justify a single sb slot?

My list since today for reference:

//Mana
1 Bayou
4 Blooming Marsh
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Verdant Catacombs

//Combo
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Vampire Hexmage

//Utility
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe

//Protection
1 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Not of This World
3 Pithing Needle
4 Thoughtseize

//Tutors
4 Crop Rotation
2 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Scrying

//GoodStuff
2 Sylvan Library

//Acceleration
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal

//Sideboard
SB: 4 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Academy Ruins
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Volrath's Stronghold
SB: 4 Walking Ballista

Dumb question. With no blue lands and no mox diamond how do you plan on utilizing academy? I think academy can work in BUG versions or mox versions but stronghold would be better for lotus petal BG builds....no?

[Negator77']

Dumb question. With no blue lands and no mox diamond how do you plan on utilizing academy? I think academy can work in BUG versions or mox versions but stronghold would be better for lotus petal BG builds....no?

Thespian Stage copying an opponents Island (since Miracles is the main match-up this plan is being tested for) is the primary plan. Lotus Petal in a pinch?

[DNSolver]

Screw everything, I'm putting the "How do you produce blue" thing in my sig.

[warfordium]

@warfordium: I am delighted to hear you got some testing in with it.

I have the same questions as Claymore:

1) Would Volrath's Stronghold have been approximately as good, or was the ability to get back Expedition Map and Pithing Needle worthwhile enough?

2) How did you sideboard?

3) How did your opponent sideboard? This specifically is pretty important - did he bring in his own Surgicals for Ballista / Depths? Did he leave in Entreat / Mentor?

Just a little more detail on your testing results would be great.

1) recurring Map was a definite factor. spending the mana from mana-producing lands in the mid-game to continuously tutor problem lands makes life hard. by the time he was Snapcastering Wear//Tear i had multiple needles or ballista, but i can see being able to recur them as also being strong. if there are enough sideboard slots i can see bringing both. bigger issue than recurring Hexmage is avoiding getting Depths extracted after combo-ing, if you ask me.

2) -8 fast mana -GQ -bog -Into the North, brought in everything but Surgical. omitting bog might have been a mistake but crop into bog and crop into sejiri are equally useful in protecting against swords on the witch (don't care about swords on the ballista…)

3) this is a little hazier but -1 mentor -1 jace -4 counterbalance -1 plains -1 pyroblast // +2 surgical +1-2 Counterspell or Flusterstorm (he had 2 of each, i suggested CS partway through as games were going long) +1-2 Pithing Needle +1-2 Wear//Tear +1 From the Ashes. I certainly raised my eyebrows at the lack of CB but given that he knows BG decks bring in decay and that we are able to combo without casting spells, he prefers not to rely on them. i was definitely playing around surgical as much as possible. he played a "standard" mentor build which i do not believe had Entreat (its equally possible that he just didn't see it) but he did leave mentors in, likely 2. From the Ashes I saw as weak once stage/depths is assembled but there was a turn with 4 lands where he cast FtA off 2 duals, then fetched untapped plains and island for swords and flusterstorm (i think that was in the game i lost)

If we can find time before I start my new job for another session I'll make sure Entreat is a part of the equation (and possibly blood moon instead of From the Ashes). No one seems to be on Rest in Peace anymore thanks for Br Reanimator, so its a great time for this plan.

While I have everyone's attention, any thoughts to an anti-extraction plan of some number of Living Wish and some number of tracker/ballista/dark depths safely in the sideboard? I'd been playing RG and dark lands extensively before moving to this deck after the GP hype settled and have thought about this as a viable long-game plan (which is certainly what the miracles matchup involves—was never satisfied with any of the tracker/choke/boseiju plans v miracles with that deck). Such a plan, of course, hinges upon whether counterbalance is in or out.

[warfordium]

Did they play entreat the angel at least 2-3 I mean, cause it's clearly the way to go against a ballista version.

I agree, but until word gets out... is there a "ballista version?" :P all these 4-1 and 5-0s might make it a thing!!!

[DNSolver]

Thanks for answering my questions. Not sure why you are asking about whether there's a Ballista version - unless we both had the same idea at the same time? Entirely possible.

I just tested a few games tonight. Ballista feels great against Miracles. I was using Volrath's Stronghold instead of Academy Ruins because I was doubtful about the blue, and it felt reasonable.

I don't really see how recurring Map helps you very much, mostly because you would much rather draw discard / needles / Not of This World / ballistas than a land most of the time. I'm usually playing these games by getting the combo assembled and not doing anything with it, making it awkward for Miracles to advance the board state significantly by turn 5, for fear that tapping out for Moon or Mentor would result in them losing. Then, I either draw enough gas from Library or discard their hand down / Needle their Top that I can either combo or play out a Ballista.

Some things that happened:

1) Opponent decided that he had to Surgical my Hexmages in one of the games because of how annoying it was with Stronghold.

2) Ballista off the top came down at 6 cmc vs a Mentor and a token and a Blood Moon, one card in hand. I shot the Mentor twice, took 1, then recharged before shooting the token again. Got killed afterward, but bought time even under Blood Moon to find a Decay.

3) Many games Ballista was surgical'd but had already beaten 1-2 cards (Counterspell, Swords, etc.). Felt a bit concerning, but it opened up a window for Depths to get there.

4) Under Blood Moon (later in same game described in #2 I think...?) I topdecked Ballista with opponent at 12 life. Attacked him down to 9, he Swords it and I put him to 5 after growing it. Topdeck another Ballista a few turns and land drops later and cast it for 5. Resolves, but I don't activate yet. Opponent Ponders then passes. I attack, opponent flashes in Snapcaster to target Swords. As soon as he casts the Swords, I add a counter and I'm able to shoot him dead.

Keep in mind a few of these games began with discard and Needle(s) in the first two turns, some of our best starts anyway. My opponent also did not have Entreat (that I saw), only Mentor, boarded out Jaces against Hexmages (reasonable). Sylvan Library also did work. Also, any damage you get in early with Ballista / Hexmage really matters late-game when you start top-decking Ballistas, so get aggressive (unless you have Library lowering your life total obviously)

I tried to play against Miracles last night online, but went two leagues without facing it once.