[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Never mind, can't read...

[Sigar]

It's no secret that Legacy is currently overrun with various BUG decks. I have misidentified what deck I am up against more than once and that has cost me games. Basically, I have a hard time ascertaining whether I am facing Shardless BUG, BUG Delver, TNN BUG, BUG Aluren, or BUG Food Chain (all are present in my meta.) Some cards are dead giveaways- Delver (Delver), Noble Hierarch (TNN BUG), Manipulate Fate (Food Chain)- but it seems like all of these decks have very similar early plays involving deathrite shaman, abrupt decay, hand disruption, and cantrips. Shardless and Aluren in particular seem to share a lot of the same cards in Shardless Agent, DRS, and Baleful Strix. Does anyone have tips/tricks to learn to identify these very similar looking decks early on so we can formulate effective game plans?

Basic lands.

[iatee]

I've often found myself that 12 Post is annoying. Is it a bad MU in general? An early Show and Tell (Primeval Titan, Good old Emrakul, Counter Kozilek) in Game 1 is GG most of the time, except I can resolve an early Prelate on 3 when I'm OTP. Mana denial plan gets hindered regularly because of MD Pithing Needle naming Wasteland. Thalia is useless. It happened once, that i could flicker the Needle for triple Wasteland action, which brought me the win, but this scenario doesn't show up often. MD Deluge and Decay are also frustrating, if i don't have Prelate or Mom on board. Are there any other good SB cards next to Containment Priest and Cataclysm to improve the MU postboard? In theory these options seem to be enough, if the resolve just in time, but in reality chances are limited. Perhaps I don't mulligan aggressively enough... Council's Judgment is OK against Titan and Kozilek, but against Emrakul it's crap. Relating to him I wanted to try Blessed Alliance, but this seems to be quite narrow. As it is Spirit of the Labyrinth against Kozilek.

Most matchups where you'd say 'Thalia is useless' are bad matchups and 12 Post is indeed one of them.

Blessed Alliance doesn't do much vs Emrakul because they can just tutor him up again with Eye. You can CJ or Karakas a Show and Tell'd Emrakul, but most of the time if your opponent hardcasts Emrakul in Magic, the game is over, you lose. It's one of the dumbest cards in Magic, but that's just the way it is. You could beat it with an on-board Mangara, but they have to be willing to play into that. Mangara is generally pretty good vs 12 Post though, eats Eldrazi, eats lands, and they're slow enough that the Mangara+Karakas lock can do work.

The best thing to do if you want to reliably beat your local 12 Post player is to splash red - if you put Magus of the Moon in your deck the matchup goes from being unfavored to very favored. Other cards that I've found to be good - Revoker/Needle/Relic Warder have a lot of targets + also side in anything that speeds up your clock, like Mirran Crusader. You need to have some sort of disruption since our natural clock isn't gonna race them. If your opening hand doesn't have some sort of way to mess with their development, you should probably mull.

One nuance about the deck is that you can build it a million different ways. There's the core (the lands, Eldrazi, Titan) but also a decent amount of flex spots. Their flex spots are often where their interaction is so you have to pay attention to what their particular build looks like and what their token interactive card was when you see it so you can play around it g2/3. This will also affect things like whether you should side out Mother of Runes (if they're playing board-wipe effects like EE vs targeted removal). Decks like that get an edge from having the element of surprise, but they also lose the edge once their opponent knows what they're doing.

[Medea_]

I'm not thrilled to play against 12 Post. Our land-based mana denial package can do some work, but their Pithing Needles often brick that. It's also relatively easy for them to go over the top of us in the late game. I've even played against some 12 Post builds that have Top and Terminus, which was a beating.

Slightly off topic, but for those of you playing in EE6 next weekend, I wrote up my recent experiences with White Eldrazi.

[appleseiter15]

After comparing decklists for various BUG based decks on MTG Top 8, I think I've gathered some useful information regarding identifying these decks early enough in game one. I'd like to share that information here and have other more experienced D and T players corroborate/refute these findings.

The BUG based decks I have analyzed are: BUG Delver/Midrange, Shardless BUG, TNN BUG (Reid Duke's winning deck), Aluren, and Food Chain. These decks have similar looking landbases and many overlapping cards (Deathrite Shaman, Force of Will, Brainstorm, Abrupt Decay, primarily), so I'm going to list a few cards that are specific to one or more decks that are likely early-plays that might help you narrow down possible choices:


Island: (N) Delver (N) Shardless (Y) TNN (Y) Aluren (Y) Food Chain - Delver plays no basics, shardless is BG heavy

Swamp: (N) Delver (Y) Shardless (N) TNN (Y) Aluren (Y) Food Chain - Delver plays no basics, TNN is U heavy

Ponder: (Y) Delver (N) Shardless (Y) TNN (Y) Aluren (Y) Food Chain - Shardless plays Ancestral Visions instead of ponder

Daze: (Y) Delver (N) Shardless (Y) TNN (N) Aluren (N) Food Chain - Shardless is trying to go late, unfair BUG decks don't play daze

Hymn: (Y) Delver (Y) Shardless (N) TNN (N) Aluren (N) Food Chain - TNN is not B heavy, unfair decks don't play hymn

Push: (Y) Delver (Y) Shardless (Y) TNN (N) Aluren (N) Food Chain - Unfair decks don't play push


Other observations:
- If you see two basic forests, you are almost certainly facing Aluren (Aluren costs 2GG.) If you see two basic islands, you are almost certainly facing Food Chain (Misthollow Griffin costs 2UU.)
- If you see other forms of interaction besides Force of Will (such as Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, Daze, or Fatal Push), you are almost certainly not facing a combo deck (Aluren or Food Chain.)
- If you see Daze, you are not facing Shardless or a combo deck

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So I guess there's one more distinction to be made in the format; the separation of the two different bug delver lists, which are BUG Delver and Team America. TA is a black-heavy tapout version (3-4 Hymn, 3-4 Liliana, Tombstalker) of Delver that is much different from its sister, blue-heavy BUG Delver. This version uses more blue in the form of heavier soft-counters and more often than not, Stifle. Also, beyond that, this is the version most likely to play some number of TNN or Clique (meta or expected meta call).

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[appleseiter15]

So I guess there's one more distinction to be made in the format; the separation of the two different bug delver lists, which are BUG Delver and Team America. TA is a black-heavy tapout version (3-4 Hymn, 3-4 Liliana, Tombstalker) of Delver that is much different from its sister, blue-heavy BUG Delver. This version uses more blue in the form of heavier soft-counters and more often than not, Stifle. Also, beyond that, this is the version most likely to play some number of TNN or Clique (meta or expected meta call).

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Definitely a good distinction to make! Personally, I've seen a lot more of Team America lately. Also, why is Team America called that? Is it another "Solidarity?"

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Placed second at a teeny weenie local event. 12 people, went 3-1-1 in swiss, 5 rounds, cut to t4. Will post matchups, thoughts later. Grixis Delver has been rough for me, any general thoughts? My only loss both Swiss and in the finals were to manaless dredge. I beat it once out of 5 games. Thems the breaks.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Finn]

Definitely a good distinction to make! Personally, I've seen a lot more of Team America lately. Also, why is Team America called that? Is it another "Solidarity?"

Yes. Ignore the dumb name.

[ESG]

@appleseiter15: That chart is a fantastic guide, but budget versions of those decks often run more basics, which could send false signals. The takeaway for newbies is to always pay attention to the opponent's lands and spells. Just like sideboarding guides, there are no hard and fast rules. You have to make decisions based on the information available in the moment and your knowledge of what's common and what's fringe.

If I see a Delver out of a deck with those colors, I'm not going to assume it eschews either Hymn or Stifle; I'm going to consider both as playable cards. I'm going to try not to walk into a Stifle, and if I see one, I'm certainly going to play around Stifle the rest of the match.

[fluuu]

Hello,
New DNT player.

I would like to ask you if do u think its needed to play canopy and sword of war and peace (at least in sb).

Thanks

[Medea_]

Hello,
New DNT player.

I would like to ask you if do u think its needed to play canopy and sword of war and peace (at least in sb).

Thanks

Horizon Canopy is playable, but not a particularly popular choice these days. Sword of War and Peace is not necessary, but it is *very* good. I started running it in the maindeck and have no regrets about the decision.

[fluuu]

Horizon Canopy is playable, but not a particularly popular choice these days. Sword of War and Peace is not necessary, but it is *very* good. I started running it in the maindeck and have no regrets about the decision.

I suppose its there to help vs miracles matchup?

[Isre Morn]

Most matchups where you'd say 'Thalia is useless' are bad matchups and 12 Post is indeed one of them.

Blessed Alliance doesn't do much vs Emrakul because they can just tutor him up again with Eye. You can CJ or Karakas a Show and Tell'd Emrakul, but most of the time if your opponent hardcasts Emrakul in Magic, the game is over, you lose. It's one of the dumbest cards in Magic, but that's just the way it is. You could beat it with an on-board Mangara, but they have to be willing to play into that. Mangara is generally pretty good vs 12 Post though, eats Eldrazi, eats lands, and they're slow enough that the Mangara+Karakas lock can do work.

The best thing to do if you want to reliably beat your local 12 Post player is to splash red - if you put Magus of the Moon in your deck the matchup goes from being unfavored to very favored. Other cards that I've found to be good - Revoker/Needle/Relic Warder have a lot of targets + also side in anything that speeds up your clock, like Mirran Crusader. You need to have some sort of disruption since our natural clock isn't gonna race them. If your opening hand doesn't have some sort of way to mess with their development, you should probably mull.

One nuance about the deck is that you can build it a million different ways. There's the core (the lands, Eldrazi, Titan) but also a decent amount of flex spots. Their flex spots are often where their interaction is so you have to pay attention to what their particular build looks like and what their token interactive card was when you see it so you can play around it g2/3. This will also affect things like whether you should side out Mother of Runes (if they're playing board-wipe effects like EE vs targeted removal). Decks like that get an edge from having the element of surprise, but they also lose the edge once their opponent knows what they're doing.

Thanks iatee for your lines, also to Medeas short look into. Yeah, my local 12 Post player pilots his favourite deck for years, which isn't the cause for me and my choice in DnT, picked up the deck some months ago and played not many games with it so far.

So he wisely doesn't get Emrakul of a Show and Tell into play, regularly it's Titan that hits the board early. Mostly his build is focused on BUG colors, but a few weeks ago he had a R splash primarily for Sneak Attack, which was certainly a little bit of a surprise at first sight, but it seems that he dodged the splash meanwhile - perhaps because of a straighter game plan.

It's definitely not motivating having a karakas online against a hardcasted Emrakul or Kozilek. I think Blessed Alliance will not make the cut, as you already mentioned the synergy of Emrakul with Eye (more than ever when Crop Rotation is online MD).

Mangara is a choice to be considered in this MU, but I mostly find him to slow in general. Perhaps I'll give it a try next week - or Banisher Priest?

With Revoker I tend to name Top primarly. I've never seen Candelabra, Expedition Map, Ugin or any other important targets so far the last times. First action with Needle is to name Eye next to Top.

Regarding board-wipe effects vs. targeted removal is that both variants are in his MD - I guess 2-3 AD and at least 1 Deluge, which lets me keep some Moms postboard.

Currently I still play 1 Avenger and 1 Crusader, which I feel is to low atm. I tend to tick up at least one of them up in numbers. A 2/2 split seems very aggressivley, but I felt that keeping pressure on board with these two guys is very important for us in many matchups.

EDIT: Registered the splash for Magus of the Moon, but I also tinker around with other splahes (U, B) and Money is actually a bit limited ;) but I'll keep this advice in mind ;)

[Elpresidente]

Got top 4 playing Death and Taxes again, but this time it was much smaller, 28 people. So 5 rounds cut to top 8 for store credit and I went 3-1-1 swiss, won one round in top 8, and top 4 split and everyone walked away with 50.

Creatures:
4 Mother of runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
2 Recruiter of the guard
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Sanctum Prelate

Non Creature Spells:
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

Lands:
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Ports
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Path to Exile
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Council's Judgment
2 Rest in Peace
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of War and Peace

I ran back the same 75 from Fire and Dice, except -1 Kambal, +1 Spirit of the labyrinth, -1 Cavern, +1 plains. Kambal was greedy and not running it meant I could cur the third cavern which is nice on the manabase

Final record for the day was 4-1-1, going 8-3-3.

Round 1: Jeremy on Black Red Reanimator 2-1
Lost the die roll. Game one I keep a pretty solid 6, he also mulled, with vial, two lands, and some creatures. He goes turn 1 looting ditching a Griselbrand and something else. I play vial, he loots again, unmasks my recruiter of the guard, then reanimates with Griselbrand. He draws seven and passes. I play karakas and pass. He goes to attack, I bounce, and he end step reanimates a sire. I lose the hand, draw land go to 15. Draw thalia, go to 10. Didn't attack for some reason cause I wasn't blocking anyways, draw swords and swords his sire. He draws and passes. I find a prelate and put it on 1, two stop faithless flashbacks. Thalia and prelate beats get game 1 in a steal imo.

In: 2 Containment priest, 1 Faerie Macabre, 2 Rest in Peace, 1 Pithing Needle
Out: 3 Phyrexian Revoker, 1 Sword of Fire and Ice, 1 Stoneforge Mystic, 1 Mirran Crusader
Cut the slow stuff and put in the grave hate

Game two on the draw. Keep a decent 7 with lands a batterskull and stoneforge mystic. He gets a t1 inkwell. I play stoneforge mystic and he reanimates a sire so I lose.

Game three on the play. 7 is 3 Thalia's, Faerie Macabre, port, karakas. He attempts a turn 1 inkwell, I faerie macabre in response to exhume and thalia locks him out mana wise


Round 2: Harrison on RUG Delver 2-0
Won the die roll. Game one on the play. He keeps a one lander, I wasteland his trop, he eventually finds a second trop and plays a mongoose. I waste again and end up with jitte and sword in play. I get 5 mana while he has no lands and hard cast a batterskull and thats game.

In: 2 Rest in Peace, 2 Council's Judgment
Out: 1 swords to plowshares, 3 revoker
Revokers hit nothing, he only plays shroud/hexproof creatures post board, but there may be a mandrils

Game two was turn two mystic turn 3 skull and his winter orb does nothing against those beats

Round 3: Cody on Eldrazi Stompy 0-2
Lost the die roll. Game 1 I mull to 5 and he has a mimic big endless one reality smasher draw and I die pretty quickly

In: 2 Gideon, 2 Council's Judgment, 1 Path
Out: 4 Mom, Thalia
I sided wrong was thinking he was on something else. I should have brought in both paths, Gideon I think is fine still though

Game 2, he mulls to 6. Has turn 1 needle naming my wasteland. I go thalia, he seers taking jitte, I play revoker, he seers taking judgment. I draw some lands and hard cast a batterskull after i cast an avenger. I eat an all is dust and die

Round 4: Joe on Storm 2-0
Win the die roll, good start. Game 1 I have vial. He starts cantriping a bit. I vial in mom then port his sea. I get to vial in a spirit in response to a ponder which is nice. Turn before he gets to go off, I find a prelate and play it on 4 ending the game.

In: 2 Canonist, 2 Rest in Peace, 1 Macabre, 1 Sword of War and Peace
Out: 1 Mirran Crusader, 1 Sword of Fire and Ice, 1 Recruiter, 1 Wisp, 1 Stoneforge Mystic, 1 card I can't remember
Bring in the storm hate. Sword of war peace better than fire and ice if I get to connect. The life gain is relevant and it deals more damage likely. Cut the slower cards, but I maybe should have kept in the recruiter

Game 2 he mulls to 5. I land a turn two spirit after he whiffs a therapy on Thalia and follow up with a top deck prelate on 4 to give me enough time to kill him. Unfortunate game to be honest.

Round 5: Konan on Noble BUG 0-0-3
We draw cause we are both locked if we do.

At the end of round 5 top 8 looks like
Mike on BUG Delver
Bobby on Sneak and Show
Matt on Dragon Stompy
Cody on Eldrazi
Konan on Noble BUG
Me on DnT
Chris on BR reanimator
Taka on Infect

One person wanted to play so we did.

Top 8: Matt on Dragon Stompy 2-0
I got to see what he was on, and he didn't know what I was on unfortunate for him.
He leads on chrome mox pitching Chandra, sol land sin prodder. I land a turn 1 vial. He then plays trinisphere as I tell him to mill a land. I waste his tomb, and he proceeds to mill every land to his sin prodder when I eventually land a sword of fire and ice and a batterskull to end the game.

In: 2 Council's Judgment, 2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Sword of War and Peace
Out: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice, 1 Wisp, 3 Revokers, 1 Thalia
Revokers can only name chandra, so I decided I'd rather have needle if that comes up anyways. Gideon's are to beat the like 4 sulfur elementals I know he has due to him borrowing the list from another player. Judgment cause he plays permanents.

Game two on the draw. He goes chrome mox pitching chandra, mountain, revoker on vial. I play vial and pass. He plays mountain rabble master and hits me for 3. I swords his rabble master. He plays another rabblemaster and I take 4 down to 13. I untap, and cast a mirran crusader. He plays a sulfur elemental and I'm hit down to 11 blocking a token with crusader. I play a second crusader and another land. He plays a land thunderbreak regent and hits me to 10. At this point I'm lamenting my single white source in plains as I have a flickerwisp and judgment stranded in hand. I top deck a stoneforge which i use to grab a sword of war and peace. I go to 6. I equip to the mirran crusader top decking the land I needed to play and equip. He neglects to block using his revoker gaining me 8 life and putting him to 12. He continues to draw only lands and the follow up swing plus a prelate on 4 to turn off fiery confluence ends the game.

Unfortunately for him, he hit was I think is his worst matchup of the top 8 decks and I managed to get top 4. Tournament was fun, spirit was good only a couple of times, where it was fine, but nothing insane. I'd probably run back this 75 as it for the next event. GPT Season now as I need to win a GPT to get those byes in Vegas. Playing DnT in Legacy, Brave Sir Robin in Modern, and Mardu Vehicles in Standard, so white based creature strategies for the forseeable future

[sarpedon]

I'd like to get your thoughts on Paladin en-Vec in the current metagame. I've been running 1 in the main alongside 1 Mirran Crusader for a few weeks, and have found that I'm keeping it in more often than I originally anticipated. My thought process is this:

It has protection from:

• Abrupt Decay
• Lightning Bolt
• Punishing Fire
• Fatal Push
• Baleful Strix
• Gurmag Angler
• Sulfur Elemental
• Grim Lavamancer
• Leovold, Emissary of Trest, though he wouldn't kill Leovold unless he's equipped with a sword whereas Mirran Crusader would.
• Burn (the deck)

It unfortunately does not have protection from:

• Tarmogoyf
• Swords to Plowshares, though neither does Mirran Crusader.

Clearly, Double Strike is way better than just First Strike. But, I do think it's protected from a wide range of threats and answers such that he's worth consideration. Plus, since we're now running Cavern of Souls and Recruiter of the Guard, it makes more sense to run just 1 copy.

Does anyone else have thoughts or experience on this?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm pretty sure my little rundown won't be for a week. It's spring break, I have my daughter for a week and my girlfriend's dad is in town...no time ever...

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[colo]

sarpedon, Paladin en-Vec's most pressing problem is, I think, True-Name Nemesis. Mystic Crusader is an option to consider to conditionally fix that, but it's too often weak to -1/-1 effects.

[Medea_]

@Sarpedon

Mirran Crusader is still pretty good when it is bad. It threatens to do four damage a turn unchecked, and double strike helps it trade up with threats like Thought-Knot Seer. In the matchups where it is good, Mirran Crusader will likely single-handedly win the game.

When Paladin en-Vec is bad, it's a very overcosted body that isn't particularly great in combat. While it might shine against, say, Grixis Delver, it's going to be a relatively mediocre card in many other matchups. In the matchups where it is good, it's sort of like a weaker TNN. It's annoying, but it likely isn't enough to win a game on its own.

Given the overwhelming presence of BUG and that fact that most of us run two swords that offer protection from red, I'm not really hot on the idea of Paladin en-Vec at the moment.

[iatee]

Fiendslayer Paladin is just better than Paladin en-Vec anyway. There are a few specific spots where it's gonna be worse (vs Monastery Swiftspear + prowess, vs Gurmag Angler) but lifegain is very powerful vs all the decks where you want that card (Grixis Delver, Burn, UR Delver.)