[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

[.dk]

I didn't realise you can loop Brutality like that, nice!

Think of it this way - you can loop ANY spell you want, as long as it doesn't get exiled somehow.

[MXG]

Pretty sure it's the general Children + Grizzlebees + Emrakul looping but you just cast Brutality as a single Tendrils copy every iteration. Use all your rituals/petals, crack children, cast Brutality, pitch Emrakul to escalate, repeat until opponent wishes they were having less fun.

I could be wrong, haven't played this deck in a long time.

Since people have confirmed that it works that way just now, I'm very confused.

Emrakul’s trigger goes on the stack after you’ve finished *casting* Collective Brutality, but before Collective Brutality resolves. This would mean that Emrakul's shuffle trigger resolves before Collective Brutality resolves, and then after Collective Brutality resolves, it just goes to an empty graveyard.

Am I missing something?

Edit: How I assume it's done (correctly) is by casting Collective Brutality as just a drain effect, using Unmask or some other discard outlet to bin Emrakul, shuffle everything back in, and repeat until everyone's having fun.

[Acclimation]

For looping Brutality (or any card you want to loop), you have to:

(1) cast Brutality (or whatever other card),

(2) then make sure your library is in an increment of 7 including Emrakul when you go to shuffle everything back in,

(3) then use Therapy or Unmask to pitch Emrakul. (Once you've done a few loops, you make sure you use Therapy as the mana will be flowing easier than black cards)

(4) draw 7 or 14 or 21

(5) Repeat the process, casting rituals, sending Children to gulag, casting Brutality (or whatever), discarding Emrakul and shuffling back in an increment of 7.


As long as you do that, those sweet, sweet onion bursts will be yours with a low likelihood of messing up.

[Richard Cheese]

Since people have confirmed that it works that way just now, I'm very confused.

Emrakul’s trigger goes on the stack after you’ve finished *casting* Collective Brutality, but before Collective Brutality resolves. This would mean that Emrakul's shuffle trigger resolves before Collective Brutality resolves, and then after Collective Brutality resolves, it just goes to an empty graveyard.

Am I missing something?

Edit: How I assume it's done (correctly) is by casting Collective Brutality as just a drain effect, using Unmask or some other discard outlet to bin Emrakul, shuffle everything back in, and repeat until everyone's having fun.

Pretty sure you're correct. I'm just not getting enough folic acid and magnesium lately.

[.dk]

For looping Brutality (or any card you want to loop), you have to:

(1) cast Brutality (or whatever other card),

(2) then make sure your library is in an increment of 7 including Emrakul when you go to shuffle everything back in,

(3) then use Therapy or Unmask to pitch Emrakul. (Once you've done a few loops, you make sure you use Therapy as the mana will be flowing easier than black cards)

(4) draw 7 or 14 or 21

(5) Repeat the process, casting rituals, sending Children to gulag, casting Brutality (or whatever), discarding Emrakul and shuffling back in an increment of 7.


As long as you do that, those sweet, sweet onion bursts will be yours with a low likelihood of messing up.

Unmask DOES have a regular casting cost too - and you should be making enough mana per loop to just pair the fair price for it as well (loop cards of 4x Rits, Emrakul, Discard, Collective Brutality/Whatever). So it doesn't necessarily have to be therapy that you are looping with.

[Acclimation]

Unmask DOES have a regular casting cost too - and you should be making enough mana per loop to just pair the fair price for it as well (loop cards of 4x Rits, Emrakul, Discard, Collective Brutality/Whatever). So it doesn't necessarily have to be therapy that you are looping with.

I've found that Therapy makes for easier looping, as doing increments of 7 is much easier when i only have to cast 6 cards pre Emrakul, and trying to do Unmask even with hardcast made it more likely to mess up.

I have no evidence WHY this was the case for me, but I've been goldfishing this while sitting at home watching netflix and procrastinating on school work and have been idly noticing trends.

[Zooligan]

OK, I think I get the loop part, but I'm unsure about how you get set up into it. How do you assure that you have a library with a multiple of 7? After drawing the deck you just sac CoK and keep casting shit until you have 7x-2 cards in the yard and then cast a discard spell on yourself and pitch Emmy?

Non-loop question: Does Silence have any utility in the W transitional board plan?

[Jblinder]

For looping Brutality (or any card you want to loop), you have to:

(1) cast Brutality (or whatever other card),

(2) then make sure your library is in an increment of 7 including Emrakul when you go to shuffle everything back in,

(3) then use Therapy or Unmask to pitch Emrakul. (Once you've done a few loops, you make sure you use Therapy as the mana will be flowing easier than black cards)

(4) draw 7 or 14 or 21

(5) Repeat the process, casting rituals, sending Children to gulag, casting Brutality (or whatever), discarding Emrakul and shuffling back in an increment of 7.


As long as you do that, those sweet, sweet onion bursts will be yours with a low likelihood of messing up.

Unless there is a chalice (on 1) in play or some weird circumstance (which does happen), you really don't need to be so precise to make sure you have increments of 7 left in your deck. Sure, there will be times when you draw neither emrakul nor brutality (or whatever you want to loop with only 6 left in your deck. . If so you just entomb emrakul and keep going. Or if you just draw emrakul but not loop spell you can cabal therapy or unmask yourself. Each time you're casting all your rituals and petals and you can trivially make children at any point, as well as probe/brainstorm/ponder whenever (which you really won't need to do). You aren't forced to cast Brutality every loop. since you're infinite you'll eventually draw and cast it enough times even if you give yourself the most awkward library of 13 cards every time.

Chalice on 1 is rough times if you're trying to loop collective brutality. I'll have to think if it's even possible without dark ritual...Certainly you can hardcast emrakul through it just with lotus petals and unmask. You do have to make sure your library has increments of 7 through chalice on 1 because you can't entomb emrakul to keep the chain going.

[.dk]

I've found that Therapy makes for easier looping, as doing increments of 7 is much easier when i only have to cast 6 cards pre Emrakul, and trying to do Unmask even with hardcast made it more likely to mess up.

I have no evidence WHY this was the case for me, but I've been goldfishing this while sitting at home watching netflix and procrastinating on school work and have been idly noticing trends.

Wait, what? This isn't making sense to me. It's literally the same loop: 4x Rit, Collective Brutality, hardcast Unmask (or Therapy) discarding Emrakul. If you need more life then replace 2 rits with petal and CoK.

OK, I think I get the loop part, but I'm unsure about how you get set up into it. How do you assure that you have a library with a multiple of 7? After drawing the deck you just sac CoK and keep casting shit until you have 7x-2 cards in the yard and then cast a discard spell on yourself and pitch Emmy?

Non-loop question: Does Silence have any utility in the W transitional board plan?

Loop-wise: bingo. Just set it up until you have everything in your hand.

Non-loop question: we've run it in the past. Depends on the meta I think - a lot more utility when fast combo and RUG are more prevalent.

[Acclimation]

Wait, what? This isn't making sense to me. It's literally the same loop: 4x Rit, Collective Brutality, hardcast Unmask (or Therapy) discarding Emrakul. If you need more life then replace 2 rits with petal and CoK.



Loop-wise: bingo. Just set it up until you have everything in your hand.

Non-loop question: we've run it in the past. Depends on the meta I think - a lot more utility when fast combo and RUG are more prevalent.

When I typed that, I was rushing to type it before my class started, but the point I was wanting to make:

Petal, Petal, Ritual, Children, Brutality, Cabal Therapy, Emrakul is a complete loop without having to really track anything else (you should track children lifegain, but if you have it in every iteration, it's easier to show that you're gaining a stupid large amount of life to negate the life loss from Griselbrand).

If you wanted to weave in Unmask, your pile or my pile- children + ritual also gets there.

Moral of the story: There's a lot of different piles to set the loop up, which one you choose depends on how you prefer to show the loop.


I don't think there's a loop for Chalice at 1, you just smack them for 7 and set yourself up to reanimate next turn, and repeat until they're dead. Unless the game has gone on long, you shouldn't be in a position to lose next turn, and most non-eldrazi Chalice decks don't have much of a clock to begin with.

[Zooligan]

Non-loop question: we've run it in the past. Depends on the meta I think - a lot more utility when fast combo and RUG are more prevalent.

Silence seems like it would be useful in the current meta against Surgical Extraction/Faerie Macabre and is always useful against FoW.

[.dk]

Silence seems like it would be useful in the current meta against Surgical Extraction/Faerie Macabre and is always useful against FoW.

Then by all means, run it. Silence is at it's best against other storm decks and Canadian Thresh. There are already a bunch ways to play around/through Surgical and Faerie Macabre (which Silence doesn't stop anyway)

[Kobra_D]

Silence seems like it would be useful in the current meta against Surgical Extraction/Faerie Macabre and is always useful against FoW.

As .dk pointed out above me, be careful, Silence doesn't stop Faerie Macabre. It's an activated ability and can ruin your day anyways.

That being said also remember that you can always Pithing Needle the Macabre.

When I typed that, I was rushing to type it before my class started, but the point I was wanting to make:

Petal, Petal, Ritual, Children, Brutality, Cabal Therapy, Emrakul is a complete loop without having to really track anything else (you should track children lifegain, but if you have it in every iteration, it's easier to show that you're gaining a stupid large amount of life to negate the life loss from Griselbrand).

If you wanted to weave in Unmask, your pile or my pile- children + ritual also gets there.

Moral of the story: There's a lot of different piles to set the loop up, which one you choose depends on how you prefer to show the loop.


I don't think there's a loop for Chalice at 1, you just smack them for 7 and set yourself up to reanimate next turn, and repeat until they're dead. Unless the game has gone on long, you shouldn't be in a position to lose next turn, and most non-eldrazi Chalice decks don't have much of a clock to begin with.

To piggy back off of this;

For game 1 is I see chalice on 1 I tend to audible into playing a regular reanimator style deck. Get out Griselbrand, and Chancellor of the Annex, and then just keep stripping their hand with discard. That works incredibly well as a win-con.

Post board chalice means that there is access to whatever outs you had (U:Wipe Away, Echoing Truth. G: Abrupt Decay, Krosan Grip. W:Disenchant). As you're going through the loop hopefully you can draw into one of these spells to get rid of chalice opening up your rituals/entombs again (if you really need them at this point).

[Jblinder]

Chalice on 1 loops:

You need to carefully setup so that you'll be able to draw your whole library exactly. If you can the following loops should work through chalice.

Petalx4 sac all, cast children (countered by chalice)), shallow grave, unmask yourself discard emrakul, net 1 mana, children in play. 7 card library.

Petalx4 probe (countered) probe(countered), sac all petals, collective brutality pitching emrakul. Net 2 mana, 7 card library, collective brutality in gy.

Sac children. Play/sac 3 petals. Shallow grave. Unmask yourself discard emrakul. Net 1 mana, children in play, 7 card library containing collective brutality.

You can alternate these loops until you've cast brutality enough times to kill opponent, as long as you have enough black cards to pitch to unmask. Each brutality exiles 1 black card so 10 should be good enough for 20 damage. You easily have 10 cards to pitch so this works.

If you don't need to brutality you can also net enough mana from petals to hardcast emrakul using petal only loops, but on the last iteration you need to give yourself an 8 card library. You'll have a 7/8 chance of drawing emrakul. Then you can cast him and win on extra turn. If he is bottom card you pass (probably cast a griselbrand cause why not? and setup unmask/emrakul/goryo next turn.

[Zooligan]

As .dk pointed out above me, be careful, Silence doesn't stop Faerie Macabre. It's an activated ability and can ruin your day anyways.

Oh, interesting. I thought discarding it was an alternate casting cost, not an ability activation cost.

[Richard Cheese]

OK, I think I get the loop part, but I'm unsure about how you get set up into it. How do you assure that you have a library with a multiple of 7? After drawing the deck you just sac CoK and keep casting shit until you have 7x-2 cards in the yard and then cast a discard spell on yourself and pitch Emmy?

Non-loop question: Does Silence have any utility in the W transitional board plan?

You don't really have to have multiples of 7 to get going. You should have most of your deck in your hand anyway, so you have a ton of options to get to a repetitive state. If you don't draw Brutality, pitch Emrakul to shuffle and try again. Missing Emrakul or Children? Entomb is a thing. I think as long as you're making as much mana as possible pre-shuffle, you can just iterate towards a stable state.

Or just explain what's about to happen and give your opponent the choice between watching that go down for 20 minutes or a refreshing margarita. This is a win-win because anyone that insists you play it out doesn't deserve refreshing margaritas anyway.

Oh and on silence we've kinda moved away from it because it seems like most of the hate out there is permanent-based now anyway. Counterbalance, Deathrite, RiP, Karakas, Chalice. When it was all delver and stoneblade, Silence did a ton of work. I still want to believe that Abeyance is the answer to our problems but I think everyone who has ever tried it has come to the same conclusion that the cost is just too prohibitive.

[Zooligan]

I still want to believe that Abeyance is the answer to our problems but I think everyone who has ever tried it has come to the same conclusion that the cost is just too prohibitive.

You mean mana cost?? 1W? gets around Chalice@1 :)

[Jblinder]

You mean mana cost?? 1W? gets around Chalice@1 :)

Unfortunatly Chalice decks don't tend to be decks you want a Silence effect against.

[Zooligan]

Unfortunatly Chalice decks don't tend to be decks you want a Silence effect against.

I realize that. I was attempting to be cute (hence the smiley) but crash and burn like so many of my attempts at humor and passes at women. I meant it sort of like the old "but you can pitch {insert meh blue card here} to FoW.

Never mind.

Anywho, is the 1W really that ungainly? Cuz otherwise it seems perfect.

[Jblinder]

I realize that. I was attempting to be cute (hence the smiley) but crash and burn like so many of my attempts at humor and passes at women. I meant it sort of like the old "but you can pitch {insert meh blue card here} to FoW.

Never mind.

Anywho, is the 1W really that ungainly? Cuz otherwise it seems perfect.

No, I think it should have been clear you were joking. Just a "whoosh" for me.

1W does seem cost-prohibitive to me, though I've never tried Abeyance. In post board games you usually have to be careful about not entombing early, since surgical extraction will blow you out. So now you're trying to cast abeyance/entomb/reanimation effect all in the same turn. It's hard to get the mana to do that with this deck by turn 2/3 when you're ideally going off.
Also, the turn you're casting Abeyance is the turn you want to go off, so presumably you have what you need to do so, so it's unclear how the extra card is helping you. it bbasically helps you if you need to cycle it or if you need a lucky topdeck off abeyance as a last resort...which seems far less important than the extra mana.