Miracle Control

[Whitefaces]

If you look at the 5-0 lists on MTG Goldfish, there's one without Predict. The results speak pretty clearly.

[HSCK]

The point is, you keep pushing Predict as an end-all-be-all auto-include in the deck in the same way Terminus and Top are, and it just isn't. Like others in here have said, going heavier on Predict will make some MUs better and some MUs worse. The MUs that are made better, I don't find myself struggling with them to begin with, and I'd rather not have other MUs get worse.

What matchups get worse? What results show this trend?

[FZA]

What matchups get worse? What results show this trend?

To really answer this question you have to consider what usually replaces Predict in builds that don't run it.

It seems like it's really a question of Predict + Entreat vs Monastery Mentor (there's also the legends build of course, but I'm not including that in this debate).

IMO the Predict version is most notably better in the mirror and against BUG decks, which is why I think it's outperforming Mentor builds right now.

The Mentor version is stronger against Eldrazi and against "random" decks like 12-post where your interaction isn't always useful and you need to shut the door quickly.

Seems to me like the Predict version is clearly advantaged in the current meta. Think of it this way, you've essentially already sideboarded against Shardless/Noble BUG without having to sacrifice that much against the field.

It's interesting that most successful online lists are on the Predict version while top finishing paper lists have been favoring Mentor.

[Minniehajj]

It's interesting that most successful online lists are on the Predict version while top finishing paper lists have been favoring Mentor.

For what it's worth, I think that this trend will change as these builds have just started seeing more widespread play in Paper.

[kentheide]

The finals of a large legacy tournament was 4 Predict vs 3 Predict and you've decided this is a good time to convince people that Predict sucks?

As much as I agree with the baseline point of playing some number of Predict this is not a great argument as the two other tournaments the same weekend didn't have any Miracles in the Top8 and they played 3-4 predicts as well. Pairings, good/bad fortune etc during a tournament makes it near impossible to use one isolated incident as proof.

Conclusion; we need to see more paper results.

For what it's worth, I think that this trend will change as these builds have just started seeing more widespread play in Paper.

Didn't pretty much everyone play Predict last weekend? :-) That tells me the trend has already caught up on paper, even though it only manifested in results at EE6.

[jdc5011]

Hey guys. Still kind of new to this deck. Been working on it for the past few weeks at my LGS Thursday nights. I struggle a lot right now facing a buddy of mine who's on a standstill BUG list. Any advice for how to keep up with standstill in terms of raw cards? I feel like if SS resolves we're in a bad situation. Thoughts? Last few weeks I've been on 2 ETA/2 JTMS plan. Played 2 predicts last week. I like them. This week I think I'm going with 2 predicts, 4 ponders, 3 mentors with 1 ETA in the SB. Is predict better with mentor? Should i split 3/3 predict and ponder?

[Kobal]

Hey guys. Still kind of new to this deck. Been working on it for the past few weeks at my LGS Thursday nights. I struggle a lot right now facing a buddy of mine who's on a standstill BUG list. Any advice for how to keep up with standstill in terms of raw cards? I feel like if SS resolves we're in a bad situation. Thoughts? Last few weeks I've been on 2 ETA/2 JTMS plan. Played 2 predicts last week. I like them. This week I think I'm going with 2 predicts, 4 ponders, 3 mentors with 1 ETA in the SB. Is predict better with mentor? Should i split 3/3 predict and ponder?

Not an expert by any means, but:
- Get Top into play before he drops Standstill. That way you can ensure you keep making your land drops without breaking Standstill.
- Once the Landstill player has a full grip, break the Standstill end of his turn with an instant (Predict, Brainstorm or Swords to Plowshares on a manland that attacked this turn) so he does get less real card advantage from the three cards he draws, since he has to discard.
- After sideboarding, countering the Standstill with REB is also an option.

[klaus]

Not really in the loop atm.. could somebody enlighten me about why it's "Predict+EtA" VS. "Mentor+XYZ"?
The Predict engine looks like it's tailor-made for Mentor, since it obviously makes Monks itself finds more cantrips to keep them coming.

Here's something I'd take for a spin:

3 Mentor
3 SCM

3 Predict
4 BS
4 Ponder

4 Top
3 CB

4 STP
3 Terminus

1 Pyroblast
1 Jace

4 FoW
2 Snare

(39)

[Minniehajj]

Not really in the loop atm.. could somebody enlighten me about why it's "Predict+EtA" VS. "Mentor+XYZ"?
The Predict engine looks like it's tailor-made for Mentor, since it obviously makes Monks itself finds more cantrips to keep them coming.

Here's something I'd take for a spin:

3 Mentor
3 SCM

3 Predict
4 BS
4 Ponder

4 Top
3 CB

4 STP
3 Terminus

1 Pyroblast
1 Jace

4 FoW
2 Snare

(39)

This post has your answer: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post995092

[Tiberius42]

I'm thinking of picking up a heavy predict miracles list on MTGO. I've never played the deck but I've seen it played a ton and played against it a ton. Any suggestions for a list that would be good for a beginner? Are cards like fetches and snapcasters going to drop when MM17 drops tomorrow or have they already come down in price?

[QQQ]

Didn't pretty much everyone play Predict last weekend? :-) That tells me the trend has already caught up on paper, even though it only manifested in results at EE6.

Not at all. There were far more Mentor lists at EE6. Just, not in the Top8.

[princeofperasia]

Not really in the loop atm.. could somebody enlighten me about why it's "Predict+EtA" VS. "Mentor+XYZ"?
The Predict engine looks like it's tailor-made for Mentor, since it obviously makes Monks itself finds more cantrips to keep them coming.

Here's something I'd take for a spin:

3 Mentor
3 SCM

3 Predict
4 BS
4 Ponder

4 Top
3 CB

4 STP
3 Terminus

1 Pyroblast
1 Jace

4 FoW
2 Snare

(39)

I asked Minniehajj the same exact question a couple days ago as well

Personally, I think it just hasn't been explored fully. I went x-1-1 to a 10th place finish at ee with a very similar list (off by 3 cards):

3 Mentor
3 SCM
3 Predict
4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Top
3 CB
4 STP
3 Terminus
2 Jace
4 FoW
2 EE

I haven't tested it much online (read: at all), but I'm going to try it before eternal weekend. No doubt Entreat is very well positioned in a control meta -- AnziD, Bob the Inventor, Roukas, and Mzfroste have proven this already, but the Mentor Miracle camp has its merits as well.

I don't know why people are even considering null rod in the sb (am I being trolled?) when the real mirror breaker is Mentor.

[FZA]

I asked Minniehajj the same exact question a couple days ago as well

Personally, I think it just hasn't been explored fully. I went x-1-1 to a 10th place finish at ee with a very similar list (off by 3 cards):

3 Mentor
3 SCM
3 Predict
4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Top
3 CB
4 STP
3 Terminus
2 Jace
4 FoW
2 EE

I haven't tested it much online (read: at all), but I'm going to try it before eternal weekend. No doubt Entreat is very well positioned in a control meta -- AnziD, Bob the Inventor, Roukas, and Mzfroste have proven this already, but the Mentor Miracle camp has its merits as well.

I don't know why people are even considering null rod in the sb (am I being trolled?) when the real mirror breaker is Mentor.

I don't find Mentor to be a mirror breaker. If your opponent knows what you're up to they'll just keep in some Termini and then Mentor becomes pretty easy to deal with.

If there is a real "mirror breaker", it's Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. I'm surprised that more people don't play this card.

But I think the mirror is really decided by card advantage and by who can get CounterTop online.

And of course, if you really want to beat the mirror, you can play the Legends build.

[Minniehajj]

And of course, if you really want to beat the mirror, you can play the Legends build.

I really really really don't think this is true anymore. Honestly, it hasn't been true for quite some time.

[Quasim0ff]

I am currently testing out how "greedy" we can get with a full on dedicated predict-build.

There is Rover Miracles (Anuraag Das), Spike Miracles (Rover Miracles with 74/75, with the 75th card being Null Rod) as well as Minkey Mouse Miracles (Minnifers lists).
We obviously also have the traditional Luckis (Mackan/Truckis) no-win-condition (4 snap, 2 jace, 2 cspell, 2 snare, 2 predict build), which I think pioneered this archetype. This is the one I am testing primarely, with -2 snare, +2 predict, -1 Counterbalance, +1 Vendilion Clique.

I think 3 Mentor, 4 Snapcaster, 4 predict has some serious game, if we tune it more. I'm not sure I like EE currently, as chalice is losing meta-game %, where as tnn+leovold+whatever is gaining traction, so I think if we do want something like that, I'd be much more interested in playing CJ.

I would likely start with 4: sdt, ponder, bs, predict, stp, termi, fow, snap. 3: cb, mentor. 2: jace, cspell(snare/ee/cj mix-up) and lands.

[CutthroatCasual]

where as tnn+leovold+whatever is gaining traction, so I think if we do want something like that, I'd be much more interested in playing CJ.

Wouldn't an EE on 3 do the job still? Sure, it's practically a million mana, but I think it's a better option than say CJ Snapcaster CJ. So what if it opens you to Wasteland on your red source? You play 2 (or 3) Volcs anyway, treat one of them as a spell. We don't need G1 anyway. And G2 we can just PBlast away TNN and Leovold on the stack.

[Poron]

for the Mentor lists, Meekstone is still a huge boon.

With Pyroclasm that's virtually WoG

I have proudly always played out of the box.

TNN + dorks is everywhere? Meekstone and Pyroclasm are the new bitches

[klaus]

This post has your answer: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post995092

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Entreat is used over mentor in this case because Entreat allows you to invalidate and ignore your opponent's interaction much more easily than mentor. Mentor is still a target for removal, but you'll usually have enough fuel via Predict to not care, but the real difference is the sheer time, mana investment, and sorcery-speed of Mentor. We don't necessarily need the card (some builds still play them ofc) because our game 1 game plan isn't to grind forever, which Mentor is very adept at doing, but to grind just long enough to not lose right before we blow our opponent out.

My question wasn't about why people have started preferring EtA over Mentor (which your post tries to explain), but why Predict is better suited to be run alongside EtA than Mentor.

but you'll usually have enough fuel via Predict to not care

Same applies for the Mentor plan.
The reason I'm not convinced by "Predict is better with EtA than with Mentor" is that it replaces some number of CB/Jace (which don't trigger Mentor), and thus clearly make the shell more Mentor-synergetic.
Now if you compare Mentor and EtA high-level as in "not related to specific choices, such as Predict" (which you seem to be doing), that's a completely different beast to begin with.

[Nestalim]

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The reason I'm not convinced by "Predict is better with EtA than with Mentor" is that it replaces some number of CB/Jace (which don't trigger Mentor), and thus

Since when ?

[Whitefaces]

CB/Jace (which don't trigger Mentor)

I'll let Min answer your post, but CB and Jace do trigger Mentor. It's not YP.