[Primer] R/G Lands

[kravkenov]

Leovold is a real pain. Almost every interaction piece in the deck make opponent draw (Wasteland, Port, Maze, Punishing/Vortex). The best line is to kill him with a no-target spell like Engineered Explosives, or to punishing twice allowing opponent to draw 2 cards. It's not fun, but it's the best play to make.

[U_mage]

For Louisville I played MB karakas to bounce leovald. Probably not the best solution and it never came up, but turning him into 3 mana draw a card made sense to me

[Dice_Box]

I switched over to Splashing Blue. I am finding that is a better plan in the current meta. Never thought I would say that.

[filln]

I switched over to Splashing Blue. I am finding that is a better plan in the current meta. Never thought I would say that.

I'm also on the blue splash these days. EE is a blessing and Intuition is a lot of fun.

[Admiral Nobeard]

About a week ago, I got second at a 1k in Memphis with my RG list. Here's what I'm currently running.

1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
4x Dark Depths
1x Forest
4x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
3x Maze of Ith
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Riftstone Portal
2x Taiga
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Thespian's Stage
1x Tranquil Thicket
4x Wasteland
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
4x Exploration
1x Manabond
2x Molten Vortex
4x Crop Rotation
3x Punishing Fire
4x Gamble
4x Life from the Loam
4x Mox Diamond

Sideboard
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Chalice of the Void
2x Choke
1x Karakas
3x Krosan Grip
4x Tireless Tracker

I ended up in the finals against RW Painter and lost to a Chandra, Torch of Defiance ult. A few takeaways from the tournament:

• UW Miracles is changing to include less plains in their deck.
• RG Lands is on the uptick for counts. Last tournament I went to, I was the only Lands player. This time, there were five.
• Tireless Tracker was boarded in almost every game. Maybe it's time to move them to the main?
• Grave hate (ie: Surgical) is becoming more common. Is the move to RUG justified now to increase answers and wincon variance?

For my miracles matchup, the guy said he had never played legacy before and literally copied a recent online deck. I noticed he only packed three mainboard plains and a full set of Tundra. This makes our matchups with them easier for those on the full 4 Ghost Quarter plan. The miracles guy ended up making top 8, so the less plains still makes the deck viable.

As for Tracker, it literally steals games we should not win due to being an early threat as well as card draw. If we do move them to mainboard, is there an option to cut anything, or is it better to keep them in the side?

Is the move back to RUG more preferable now and changing Lands back to a more control deck with possible combo finish? RUG has upsides and downsides, but is it better suited to the meta?

[Dice_Box]

RUG has answers to DnT and Miracles RG doesn't. Honestly if Prelate was not a thing I would not be talking about RUG. But it is and I need a way out so I am on the build that has one. It really is that simple.

And yes, I have Ring main too.

[kravkenov]

RUG has answers to DnT and Miracles RG doesn't. Honestly if Prelate was not a thing I would not be talking about RUG. But it is and I need a way out so I am on the build that has one. It really is that simple.

And yes, I have Ring main too.

When I first start playing Lands, RG Combo wasn't yet there (so the Thespian/Depth). I followed the development and addition of new tools to Lands, and as a control-deck enthusiast, just moved into the blue shell. But for several months now (a year in fact), I tried to make my RUG Lands more explosives and the Thespian/Depths more reliable. This was mainly done by playing a 3/3 Thespian/Depths split, while Classic RUG Lands were more on a 2/1 split.
Today, I see more people speaking about a "RGCL with blue". I think I can share my list here because except playing less Thespian/Depth and only 2 Gamble, it's very close to a RG Lands build.

4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
4 Crop Rotation
2 Gamble
4 Molten Vortex
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Dark Depths
2 Thespian's Stage
2 Maze of Ith
1 Academy Ruins
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Tolaria West
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
2 Tropical Island
2 Taiga
1 Volcanic Island
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

In this pile of 60 cards, I tried to keep the control side of RUG Lands, meaning more 1-of utility lands than RGCL is used to play. Therefor, I had to find rooms to play them and this is the main reason I'm on Molten Vortex instead of Punishing/Grove (4 Molten instead of a mix of 6-7 Punishing/Grove). Vortex is an excellent way to deal with lot of thing but really relies on Loam. To protect it main-deck, I opted to play a couple of Thicket plus a Canopy because it's "Rotatable" and can potentially still give cards advantage in mid-long games.

By no way I'm telling this is the list to go, but this is a working in progress that deserve some testing. Let me know what do you think about !

[Admiral Nobeard]

And yes, I have Ring main too.

How good has Ring been for you and why is it being included in more and more lists now?

In this pile of 60 cards, I tried to keep the control side of RUG Lands, meaning more 1-of utility lands than RGCL is used to play. Therefor, I had to find rooms to play them and this is the main reason I'm on Molten Vortex instead of Punishing/Grove (4 Molten instead of a mix of 6-7 Punishing/Grove). Vortex is an excellent way to deal with lot of thing but really relies on Loam. To protect it main-deck, I opted to play a couple of Thicket plus a Canopy because it's "Rotatable" and can potentially still give cards advantage in mid-long games.

By no way I'm telling this is the list to go, but this is a working in progress that deserve some testing. Let me know what do you think about !

Has Vortex performed better than Fire? It seems like it can peter out quickly unless you have loam, but it does come down quicker.

[Dice_Box]

How good has Ring been for you and why is it being included in more and more lists now?

Its ok, not wonderful, but ok. As for its reason, Prelate.

[kravkenov]

Has Vortex performed better than Fire? It seems like it can peter out quickly unless you have loam, but it does come down quicker.

It depend on the edge you are looking by. If it is about pure Burn damage, yes Vortex/Loam perform better than Punishing/Grove. But as Punishing needs Grove, Vortex needs Loam to perform, so if you looks by reliability, Punishing/Grove is better because both piece are graveyard-able. This is why I packed 3 draw effect (2x Thicket, 1x Canopy). This help to effectively draw cards (read draw Vortex if it is not in your opening hand) but also because without Loam, Vortex becomes a bit useless, so this help to fight against Extraction effect targeting your Loam (which is somethings that actually happens anyway in any Loam-deck).

Finally, I want to say also that Vortex/Loam instead of Punishing/Grove somewhat force you to play a bit less aggressively with Loam, which is something a bit counter-intuitive in a deck like RG Lands, but it actually feed the way I'm playing RUG Lands (or kind of RG Lands w/blue).

[Chatto]

So, many are abandon RGCL, and with good reasons... Still, is there no way to make RGCL viable in this new meta?

[CptHaddock]

So, many are abandon RGCL, and with good reasons... Still, is there no way to make RGCL viable in this new meta?

I think the deck is still fine in the metagame. It's certainly not the best deck in the format but I think it'll still hover around the 1-1.5 range since it preys on a decent amount of the format. I think for the most part people have figured out how to play against the deck and the only real matchup that has gotten significantly worse is D&T (I know some may disagree in this thread but I have never felt like RG was never favored in the miracles matchup without running the boseiju plan.)

This is just my opinion but I think that RUG is the "better" deck while RG is the more consistent deck.

[Ciubulu]

I'm playing rug at the moment but my main concern with the "classic" rug list is the lack of a fast natural combo that's the key of many mu's. My goal is to hybridize the RGCL list with academy ruins and explosives that's imo the main reason why rug is favored at the moment.

[kravkenov]

My goal is to hybridize the RGCL list with academy ruins and explosives that's imo the main reason why rug is favored at the moment.

That's exactly what I'm trying to do with the list I shared few post above. I'm currently on a 2/2 Thespian/Depths split. I think we can shave few utility lands (Barbarian/Ghost Quarter/Port Rishadan/Tolaria West/Thicket) to up the count to a 3/3 or even a 4/3 or 4/4 Thespian/Depths split which can give back some kind of quickness into the natural combo plan. My first target to cut would be Ghost Quarter. Sure, it help the mana-denial plan against several decks, but is this plan stronger than quick natural combo plan ? I didn't yet tested a zero Ghost Quarter and 3/3 Thespian/Depths split configuration in my current list, but it's a good question to brainstorm around.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Feel like trying to make a hybrid will just leave you with a bad deck, the big upside the R/G build has is how streamlined it is compared to RUG, you run more 1 mana tutors, more combo pieces and less of the control elements that can leave you with clunky hands. RUG needs and wants those tools to grind out and control the game.

[Admiral Nobeard]

Feel like trying to make a hybrid will just leave you with a bad deck, the big upside the R/G build has is how streamlined it is compared to RUG, you run more 1 mana tutors, more combo pieces and less of the control elements that can leave you with clunky hands. RUG needs and wants those tools to grind out and control the game.

I agree. It reminds me of the old Miracles lists before they went down to only two or three win-cons and tried to have both Top/Counterbalance combo and Standstill/RiP/Helm in the same deck, but were too slow. The way I see Lands as it is right now is that RG is the "better" and more consistent version because you know what to expect, a lot of the lines are easy to figure out, and you get wins faster because the deck has multiple ways to perform the same actions. However, because it is a combo deck, you're more open to disruption at key moments, but what combo deck isn't?

By comparison, the RUG version is closer to a Prison build and can grind out games harder than Miracles, but it gives you much more in terms of variance and toolbox effects. You can landlock somebody out with GQ/Wasteland, survive forever with Orb/Crucible/Ruins/Loam, or go for a Marit Lage once you have control on everything.

Given the metagame snapshot of Miracles running from end to end, RUG does seem the better option because it can fight a better control game, but the wide variance harms it more than helps it. Think about Miracles: they have a control core consisting of certain cards and those (IE: Balance, Top, Swords, Terminus) are usually 3-4 ofs in the deck, leading to consistency over games. Compare this to the control aspect of RUG and you have a bunch of utility pieces, similar to 4Loam, but without consistent ways to get your utility quickly enough unless you open yourself up to more creatures, and by that point, you may as well just be playing 4Loam. Additionally, RUG has a tendency to die more quickly compared to RG because of it's lack of interaction aside from Bridge, Orb, and Tabernacle, and other Utility lands. It suffers the same fate as Lantern Control does in Modern: if you have the lock pieces early, you can establish control and grind out victory; without those pieces or even a single piece sometimes, it's easy to get overwhelmed.

[filln]

Additionally, RUG has a tendency to die more quickly compared to RG because of it's lack of interaction aside from Bridge, Orb, and Tabernacle, and other Utility lands.

What "Bridge" are you referring to? Surely not Ensnaring Bridge? You're also forgetting the best part of RUG's interaction: Engineered Explosives!

[Admiral Nobeard]

What "Bridge" are you referring to? Surely not Ensnaring Bridge? You're also forgetting the best part of RUG's interaction: Engineered Explosives!

Yeah, I remember older RUG versions running Ensnaring Bridge. Oh yeah, I did forget about EE. My bad.

[kravkenov]

Imo, the main difference that matter between RGCL and RUG Lands is the ability to deal with certain kind of permanents.
RGCL is build to be streamlined at the top of the art but leave almost every control part on the side. RUG Lands has this ability, but at the price of being less streamlined (which dosent mean being absolutely clunky at all).
If the goal is to stay as close a possible to the original RGCL while being able to deal with more things on the field, the addition of Explosives and Academy Ruins is the minimal requirement.

[The_Dingo]

I'm playing rug at the moment but my main concern with the "classic" rug list is the lack of a fast natural combo that's the key of many mu's. My goal is to hybridize the RGCL list with academy ruins and explosives that's imo the main reason why rug is favored at the moment.

A few years ago I constructed and played a deck like the one you are describing. I initially wanted to stay RGCL and use buried ruin for EE recursion, but it didn't work quite like I wanted so I added Academy Ruins and a trop. I stopped tinkering with it eventually, but the conclusion I reached is that the blue should be just for EE recursion. If you do that you can play 4 stage 3 depths to remain combo oriented, and just supplement the P fire plan with EE. It was also my experience that there wasn't room for Tolaria west and intuition, which I felt did NOT have a place in a combo lands deck.

I liked the build I had, and had a decent amount of success locally with it, but moved to straight RGCL eventually because at the time there wasn't any really compelling reason to play EE.

Here's a decklist from the time from a ~45 person tournament. http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17696&iddeck=133302
Clearly playing 3 crop rotation was just foolish, not sure what I was thinking there. And the SB is waaay out of date, and obviously the utility land in the MD need to be updated. I think an updated list should look something like...

4 gamble
4 loam
4 crop rotation
4 mox diamond
4 exploration
3 punishing fire
2 engineered explosives
1 manabond

3 fetches
2 taiga
1 tropical island
1 forest
3 grove OTBW
4 wasteland
4 ghost quarter (or port)
4 stage
3 depths
3 maze
1 tabernacle
1 chasm
1 tranquil thicket
1 boseiju
1 bojuka bog
1 barbarian ring
1 academy ruins

With the addition of extra removal spells it seems prudent to me to reconsider some of the defensive utility lands and see if they are still necessary. The first land I always look at cutting is glacial chasm, and I actually think that right now I'd be pretty happy to play without it. The other land I've been contemplating is the 3rd maze of ith. Maybe the added removal compensates for it? Barbarian ring is another land that I'd love to get out of the deck. I really hate the necessity of it for beating sanctum prelate.