[Primer/Deck] Stax

[Fred_Bear]

How relevant is the Metalworker combo in the current meta? Could those slots be re-dedicated to more lock? It always feels very fragile to me and 5 slots is quite a commitment for this deck.

[Barachai]

How relevant is the Metalworker combo in the current meta? Could those slots be re-dedicated to more lock? It always feels very fragile to me and 5 slots is quite a commitment for this deck.

This deck is very incredibly mana hungry, and metalworker fuels that hunger. This is especially true of any play involving Inventors' Fair or Buried Ruin, which is a large part of the incentive for playing a MUD variant in the first place. In theory you could replace them with Thran Dynamos or Mind Stones (?), but then you have no efficient way to close the game once a hard lock is established; being able to end the game in a timely fashion has been, to me, a pretty significant draw to the deck, as STAX generally struggles to do this.

Generally, I would also think that if you feel that part of the deck is vulnerable/fragile, then this may not be the right meta for STAX as a deck; midrange especially is hard on it.

[Noctalor]

How relevant is the Metalworker combo in the current meta? Could those slots be re-dedicated to more lock? It always feels very fragile to me and 5 slots is quite a commitment for this deck.

I don't play the staff, mainly because I find it pretty much useless unless we have a worker active, most of the effects are way too mana intensive.

Still, I think we have to play worker in the deck, a lot of times he survives the turn, and we win most of those games, if he gets killed by an abrupt decay we are fine aswell, and besides being extremely helpful in the early stages of the game the card is still very relevant in the mid and late game, giving us enought mana to empty our hands each turn, and to abuse inventors' fair which is probably our best card at the moment

[Fred_Bear]

This deck is very incredibly mana hungry, and metalworker fuels that hunger. This is especially true of any play involving Inventors' Fair or Buried Ruin, which is a large part of the incentive for playing a MUD variant in the first place. In theory you could replace them with Thran Dynamos or Mind Stones (?), but then you have no efficient way to close the game once a hard lock is established; being able to end the game in a timely fashion has been, to me, a pretty significant draw to the deck, as STAX generally struggles to do this.

Generally, I would also think that if you feel that part of the deck is vulnerable/fragile, then this may not be the right meta for STAX as a deck; midrange especially is hard on it.

I don't disagree that the deck is mana hungry. That was one of the first things I noticed playing it initially. Metalworker, in my experience on MTGO, isn't a reliable way to generate that mana, though, which is what led me to asking the question. Bolt, StP, and Fatal Push are all common enough that untapping with him is quite a luxury. I agree that midrange is tough on Stax, but I just wonder if we became more mana efficient, would it improve?

I don't play the staff, mainly because I find it pretty much useless unless we have a worker active, most of the effects are way too mana intensive.

Still, I think we have to play worker in the deck, a lot of times he survives the turn, and we win most of those games, if he gets killed by an abrupt decay we are fine aswell, and besides being extremely helpful in the early stages of the game the card is still very relevant in the mid and late game, giving us enought mana to empty our hands each turn, and to abuse inventors' fair which is probably our best card at the moment

I'm not sure I agree 100% with that. Untapping with him is often great, but it's hardly an auto-win in my experience. I definitely understand that he generates mana, but I've had ups and downs there (often in conjunction with mana flood) as well as times where he is in conflict with an Ensnaring Bridge. There are other times where he is 'working' and I get wiped by a Maelstrom Pulse... None are necessarily reasons to throw Metalworker away without discussion. I'm just not convinced right now that he's as good as he needs to be.

[Noctalor]

Well, I find easier to lose because we can't empty our hand in thime with a bridge in play than losing because we cannot attack with a metalworker.

And surely dumping our hand on the board is not an autowin, but if this deck could play its cards for free, even if we have to play them all at once, for sure we would like to do so, untapping with metalworker ensures at least to cast a 4 cost card freely, and in a lot of MU we really want to enstablish our lock as soon as possible.

It is also reasonable to cast it on turn one, and get to use it at least once, and the card is pretty decent even played after a lock that prevents remuvals.

For me the main reason to play it is that in a lot of games we either need to go hellbent quickly or we need to activate an Inventors' fair and cast what we get, and it is also true that running so few win condition as we do is not that bad to just have some additional win conditions in the deck, even haing 4 1/2s is decent enought because we dont really need much more to win, but relying only on a playset of mishra's could be dangerous in my opinion

[Fred_Bear]

Well, I find easier to lose because we can't empty our hand in thime with a bridge in play than losing because we cannot attack with a metalworker.

And surely dumping our hand on the board is not an autowin, but if this deck could play its cards for free, even if we have to play them all at once, for sure we would like to do so, untapping with metalworker ensures at least to cast a 4 cost card freely, and in a lot of MU we really want to enstablish our lock as soon as possible.

It is also reasonable to cast it on turn one, and get to use it at least once, and the card is pretty decent even played after a lock that prevents remuvals.

For me the main reason to play it is that in a lot of games we either need to go hellbent quickly or we need to activate an Inventors' fair and cast what we get, and it is also true that running so few win condition as we do is not that bad to just have some additional win conditions in the deck, even haing 4 1/2s is decent enought because we dont really need much more to win, but relying only on a playset of mishra's could be dangerous in my opinion

I'm not convinced...

Look at Metalworker as a turn 1 play.

Sol-Land, Mox Diamond (discard land), Metalworker - 3 cards in hand

Untap, 4 cards in hand

Odds say, 3 of the 4 cards are artifacts, most likely lock pieces. So, you can generate 10-11 mana which should allow you to play all or at least 2 of them. Now, with an empty hand and 4-5 mana available, Metalworker is a 1/2 artifact creature in this deck. Yes, you dumped your hand on turn 2, but that doesn't always win the game. On turn 1, I would much rather play Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void, or even a blind Ensnaring Bridge. I understand that you can come up with sets of artifacts which put you well ahead of your opponent, but I just don't feel like Metalworker enables the 'broken' starts in this deck the way it does/can in Mud decks and in those decks, the 1/2 'generic' artifact creature he eventually becomes a sacrifice for the Forgemaster.

In my mind, the ideal situation is really a board where you have Metalworker, Ensnaring Bridge, Bottled Cloister, and Staff of Domination so that you are ensured to keep getting cards to generate mana with Metalworker. The issue here, though, is that Ensnaring Bridge, Bottled Cloister, and land is enough of an engine to maintain a lock. This puts me back to my original question - Is Metalworker worth the slots for this deck? I haven't really played too much with a Brown Stax list without him, but in testing with Metalworker, it feels like he creates more variance than he eliminates.

[Barachai]

I'm not convinced...

Look at Metalworker as a turn 1 play.

Sol-Land, Mox Diamond (discard land), Metalworker - 3 cards in hand

Untap, 4 cards in hand

Odds say, 3 of the 4 cards are artifacts, most likely lock pieces. So, you can generate 10-11 mana which should allow you to play all or at least 2 of them. Now, with an empty hand and 4-5 mana available, Metalworker is a 1/2 artifact creature in this deck. Yes, you dumped your hand on turn 2, but that doesn't always win the game. On turn 1, I would much rather play Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void, or even a blind Ensnaring Bridge. I understand that you can come up with sets of artifacts which put you well ahead of your opponent, but I just don't feel like Metalworker enables the 'broken' starts in this deck the way it does/can in Mud decks and in those decks, the 1/2 'generic' artifact creature he eventually becomes a sacrifice for the Forgemaster.

In my mind, the ideal situation is really a board where you have Metalworker, Ensnaring Bridge, Bottled Cloister, and Staff of Domination so that you are ensured to keep getting cards to generate mana with Metalworker. The issue here, though, is that Ensnaring Bridge, Bottled Cloister, and land is enough of an engine to maintain a lock. This puts me back to my original question - Is Metalworker worth the slots for this deck? I haven't really played too much with a Brown Stax list without him, but in testing with Metalworker, it feels like he creates more variance than he eliminates.

Just played a few games with Stax vs Loam yesterday, and one thing sticks out: Metalworker must die. Between Inventors' fair and just being able to overwhelm the board, games where Metalworker lives feel amazing. That said, if there did exist a 3 mana thran dynamo, it would be very tempting to play; as it stands, thran dynamo itself seems rather clunky, Mind Stone is kinda dinky, Monolith is very high variance, and... I'm not entirely sure on worn powerstone. You have put into my mind the idea to try it out though, might try my list with -4 worker -1 staff, +2 revoker and +3 Dynamo.

One more thought: Metalworker makes for excellent Force/Decay bait, which can also win the game.

[Fred_Bear]

One more thought: Metalworker makes for excellent Force/Decay bait, which can also win the game.

This is what it ends up for me. I hold them and then cast Metalworker, Force it, cast Trinisphere or Chalice or Crucible... I agree, when it comes together with Metalworker, it's awesome - an easy win. It's just high variance and if you don't have the support cards, very underwhelming.

I want to try a mix of mana and 'finisher'

[sdematt]

Any thoughts on the new Gideon to stall even more?

-Matt

[Princessforfun]

I haven't been playing Legacy for more than a year, but I've been playing a mono red stax deck that I like so far, but I don't have a ton of reps with. It's a stompy hybrid really. It feels good against just about anything but burn. Does anyone else have any experience with mono red and smokestack? I can post a list if anyone cares to discuss it.

[Nocioni88]

Post!


Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk

[beardstorm]

You said a lot of words when all we demand is a list!

[Princessforfun]

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
9 Mountain
4 Wasteland

4 Blood Moon
3 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox
3 Crucible of the Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Smokestack
1 Fiery Confluence
1 Rolling Earthquake

4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Sin Prodder
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar

SB
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Fairy Macabre
2 Pyroblast
1 Fiery Confluence
2 Sudden Shock
3 Trinisphere

Sorry it took so long. Ive been busy AF at work.

[Dice_Box]

The thing I love about Red stompy builds these days, they all kill me with a Chandra that I can never remember all the abilities of. I think I will have to give this a go.

[Princessforfun]

Haha, she is quite good and can end the game pretty quickly. Sin Prodder I think is the one card that really pushed this forward. It seems inocuous, but people quickly realize that it can spell doom if it stays online for a few turns. The interactions with Pia and Kiran/ Rabblemaster and Smokestack are very good and you can turn it up to three pretty easily. I have like that it's low to the ground and sometimes a turn one Rabblemaster in games 2/3 is enough to just race with a hate card as backup. Postboard Rabblemaster, ensnaring bridge and smokestack is almost impossible to beat. Those Ratchet Bomb lines for the opponent become pretty miserable.

[Dice_Box]

How useful do you find Wasteland when running do many moons? I understand the strength of Crucible and Stax, but Wasteland seems like a odd choice for what your trying to achieve.

[Princessforfun]

Turn one Blood Moon is a popular choice to Force of Will surprisingly, lol. It seems like a nonbo, but it's a good back up play to a failed turn one moon or if you just play crucible and then like a rabblemaster next. Otherwise they are just mountains and if that's the case you are probably in good shape anyhow. I've also turned a stack up to three with two Blood moon in play and a crucible with two wasteland. I killed my moon in my next turn and a land. Then double wasteland. They lost their entire boardstate. This is an outlier case for sure, but there are some very real midgame interactions.

[Princessforfun]

Also, thanks Dice_Box for formatting that for me. I was on my mobile.

[Dice_Box]

Ok. I would add 2 or 3 fetches. This is going to be a corner case, but sometimes you will have Crucible on the table and you can grab a land every turn. The issue if you do this is you have to drop Rolling Earthquake. You just can't have Tomb, Quake and Fetches in your deck all at the same time.

[Princessforfun]

I agree, that is a pretty good situation to be in with crucible. I do stabilize a lot at 1-4 life and the deck already has problems with burn if the land a swiftspear or goblin guide. Any thoughts on improving that? The deck does pretty well with cycling for cards between Chandra and Sin Prodder.