Beforehand, I am not a Maverick player, but I did face Miracles plenty of times with my DnT deck so I am hoping to provide some insight from that perspective.Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun
I guess the answer is no, if there was a GW or B answer that is bonkers versus Miracles and would translate into: Resolve to win the game, it would have been found most likely by another Legacy player that runs those colours.
#1 There is a general consensus amongst players in multiple threads on the source that Planeswalkers is one of the weak points for miracles. With the argument that miracles has a rough time removing one once it resolves. [Councils judgement, or flashcreatures]
Now at the DnT thread people are sold with the BFZ Gideon, which replaced the Elspeth which you used to see in older lists. Elf players include Nissa Vital force [most even 1 copy mainboard], whereas they opted for flip Garruk before that if they had to go for a planeswalker.
I understand that Maverick doesn't ramp as fast as Elves, and that your own Thalia's can backfire sometimes to play said planeswalker [Happens to my own Gideon every now and then.] I still think Nissa is reachable in terms of mana when playing a game out versus miracles. I also think Nissa will be better then the Gideon for Maverick. The reasons, A: Faster clock, B: Gideon in DnT is a backup for decks that pack -1-1 hate, something which Maverick has less issues with. C: Recurring in Maverick seems better to me then the 4/4 swing that Gideon offers.
#2 I wil honestly admit that I read the last 3 pages before posting this, from what I read, none is adressing the difference between the GSZ Maverick build and the Vial build. I guess that the vial version might have a higher chance to win. [Then again I feel there is a consensus in this thread that GSZ Maverick is better then the Vial due to consistency?] Mostly due to Vial slipping in your creatures under their CB.
#3 IMO if you want to dedicate more SB slots to Miracles, and you want to have a card that has a wide usage in matchups then go for more Pithing Needles. Its better then Phyrexian Revoker to shut down their SDT or JTMS as its harder to remove. Peedle also has TONS of use in other matches aside Miracles, thus it feels less like a dead card in your SB if your not facing Miracles.
I do not wish to sum up things that others have said so already to keep the post short and constructive with my personal insight.
#4 That said, I see people here summing up things like. X chokes, a Planeswalker, AD's, Teeg etc. How much cards do you guys in general board in/out in the matchup? I TRY to limit myself to boarding up to 5 cards when playing Elves and Dnt. My reasoning for this: even if you look for interaction with your opponent because its a bad MU, it shouldn't mean that you need to dillute your own deck so much to the point that its core strategy is starting to waver. [The only exception to this for me is when facing ANT with Elves -.-]
#5 Maybe you guys want to evaluate first how many cards your willing to bring in versus the matchup? [make a top 5 to bring in] Naming 10 cards that make an impact on the MU as possible SB cards is fine, but I feel after summing them up you need to be selective which ones are gonna make it, while at the same time keeping in mind that said cards need to have [preferably] a wide application of use versus the Meta allround.
To be honest I also find it hard to offer advice here compared to the DnT section mainly because Maverick has such a flexible shell, meaning that the lists here differ far more from one another then the DnT ones. Lists that include Vial, Thalia's, Sylvan Library, Teeg, AD as MB will most likely have a small advantage vs Miracles over the generic GSZ version list. I don't think that this discussion will lead to a streamlined Maverick list thats allround.
Maybe focus on making a streamlined list with main opponent Miracles in mind [vial, thalia's], and then see how much that strays from the current builds. Maybe there is something to be gained from that.
Step one is to realize that it is not the best deck in the format. It might top 8 a lot, but it's not the only deck that top 8s a lot. Understand that in live events 92% of the successful decks is not Miracles. More often than not, the winning deck is not Miracles. More often than not--it's the same select Miracles players who ever actually win the event as opposed to tonnes of random players being the ones who win with other decks.
Step two is to realize that performance is based on how you beat the field, not how you beat Miracles. If that were the case, Cloudpost, MUD, and Eldrazi would win everything. Why don't they? Because apart from beating Miracles--they do little else consistently. Why is that? Because simply being good against Miracles does not make you a Tier 1 deck.
Step three is to realize that what tier people *perceive* you're deck of being does not determine how it will perform. It doesn't matter how often I perform well with my Maverick deck, it doesn't matter how many times I top 8 or top 16 50-100 man locals in my meta, in side events--people always say the same thing "it's no longer a good deck isn't it?" Even as I proceed to beat them for the 3rd or 5th straight time I am matched with them. The goal is not to beat all decks, the goal is to have the fewest losses by the end of the last round. What tier people think you are does not determine that--your performance is the only thing that determines that.
This is not standard, where the "best deck in the room" is something you face for 3-4 of the 15 rounds you play. In legacy you can face 15 decks in a 15 round tournament; and you often do. Warping yourself because a specific matchup scares you is not a deck problem, its a player problem. If you think to win you need to beat Miracles, then sleeve up an anti-miracles list and good luck reaching top 8, nothing stopping you from interpreting the metagame that way. But if you want to become good and do well with any list--don't waste your time trying to snipe anything in Legacy. You will do much better being the best *you* that you can be. Make the decks that fear you actually fear you.
Just narrowly missed out on day 2 at SCG Worcester. Guess I'll be heading back for the Classic tomorrow.
Rd 1: W vs Junk w/ Lingering Souls, Liliana, and Kaya (!) [1-0]
Rd 2: L vs U/W w/ Counterbalance+Top+Terminus, Moat (!), and Omni-Tell combo [1-1]
Rd 3: L vs Sneak and Show [1-2]
Rd 4: W vs Delver [2-2]
Rd 5: W vs Storm [3-2]
Rd 6: W vs Enchantress [4-2]
Rd 7: W vs Miracles [5-2]
Rd 8: W vs BUG TNN [6-2]
Rd 9: L vs Dredge [6-3]
My list:
2 Bayou
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Renegade Rallier
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Tireless Tracker
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Sideboard:
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Choke
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Thoughtseize
2 Zealous Persecution
Thoughts:
Maverick still beats up on every fair deck in the format. Honestly never felt like any of the "fair" matchups were in doubt. And even some of the more degenerate combo decks (particularly Storm) are usually a pretty easy matchup if you don't just die on turn 1.
Ran a single Chains which absolutely wrecked a few brainstorm decks and essentially single-handedly won me a match against Enchantress. If you have access to it I highly recommend running it. Cavern of Souls over-performed as usual across a variety of matchups, and I was rather fortunate to have it both games against Miracles. Had a number of other games where I just had turn 2 Thalia off of Cavern and my opponent could only look helplessly on and fire off their brainstorm in response to shuffle away their countermagic. Rallier was not as impressive as he was my past few tournaments, but he provided occasional value. Tracker just breaks the game open against fair matchups but is usually the first cut against combo (fun fact, if you sac a bunch of clue tokens to an annihilator trigger he still gets +1/+1 counters and you can surprise kill a Sneak/Show player on the crackback).
Unfortunately I had scant graveyard hate and my dredge opponent had the literal nut draws. T1 DRS was nowhere close enough to win those games for me. Alas, sucks losing to that deck but I can't justify packing more dedicated graveyard hate for such a rare deck. I also unfortunately lost to Sneak/Show in game 3 when he had a T2 Blood Moon on the play and I had kept a hand with only dual lands (and had the decay in hand). And I totally punted a game vs the U/W Counter-Top plus Omni-Tell plus Terminus player when I forgot how many fetchable lands I had left in the deck after a super grindy game.
Removed flames. Be nice. - Julian23
Saying that Miracles is not the best deck in Legacy is like saying the Patriots are not the best football team in the NFL. I mean, sure they win a lot of Super Bowls, but they are not the only team to win Super Bowls.
I am not sure what metric you are using but here are a few that I was able to find.
From a recent Channel Fireball Article by Bob Huang, who polled proven Legacy "Experts":
Here’s the breakdown of the consensus Top 5 archetypes:
Miracles—13 first-place votes, 3 second-place votes (for non-Legend Miracles), and 2 fifth-place votes (for Legends Miracles).
Delver Decks—3 first-place votes, 8 second-place votes, 4 third-place votes, 3 fourth-place votes, and 1 fifth-place vote. Of the bunch, B/U/G Delver was considered the best.
Lands—1 second-place vote, 3 third-place votes, 6 fourth-place votes, and 1 fifth-place vote.
Show and Tell—3 second-place votes, 3 third-place votes, and 2 fifth-place votes.
Death and Taxes—3 third-place votes, 5 fourth-place votes and 2 fifth-place votes.
Miracles has been the best deck since the Dig Through Time banning, and has been a top tier deck since people figured out that they could play 4 Ponders.
Since you love statistics so much here is a little analysis: Out of 16 voters, 13 first place votes went to Miracles, the 3 people that didn't vote for Miracles as the best deck voted for Miracles as #2. Two people even voted for Miracles twice as they differentiated between the standard and legends lists.
MTGTop 8 has Miracles as either the only tier 1 deck, or 1 of 2 tier one decks for at least the past year... after which I stopped checking.
MtgtheSource has Miracles as the top deck 8 out of the last 12 months, with 2 seconds and 2 thirds towards the end of last year.
If you check Starcity Games you are just as likely to find a top 8 with multiple Miracles decks than you are to find one with zero.
I am not saying Miracles is the best deck as a personal opinion, Miracles is currently the best deck in the format.
Following your format:
Step One: You say Miracles is not the best deck, this is wrong.
Step Two: Here you argue that you are strawman-ing my argument saying that just beating Miracles does not make a deck automatically tier one. While you are exactly correct in your statement you are completely fabricating the fact that I said we just needed to beat Miracles. Maverick has great match-ups against fair decks and decent to poor match-ups with unfair decks depending on how our hate(thalias/teegs) line up with the speed and angle of attack of the unfair deck. The problem is, as underdogs to Miracles, we no longer win all of our fair match-ups, which means... if the meta is unfair we have problems and if the meta is very fair, we have problems. If we can straighten out our Miracles match-up, we are already favored over the current swarm of BUG decks and all of the delver decks that exist, and we can go back to crushing our fair games and sneaking by our unfair ones into the top 8/16.
Step three: This jumble of nonsense shouldn't deserve a step, congrats, you are amazing. I would like to point out that your last line of "Make the decks that fear you actually fear you." is literally the definition of win more. Why would I want to beat the decks that I already beat. I don't need to work on match-ups that I am favored in, I need to work on match-ups that are winnable with adjustments. I am not going to sit here and tell you that we can crush combo 90% of the time because I know that is not possible, what I want to know(and what I have repeated to you over and over) is how we can improve a poor match-up, against Miracles, into an even or possibly favorable one.
I am not sure if I can repeat this enough: I want to beat Miracles and am trying to discuss ways to achieve that goal. Please stop trolling and either offer suggestions and helpful discussion or move on.
@timmyod17: nice run and sorry you couldn't make day 2. Personally I think that graveyard hate is mandatory as if you can stop reanimator/dredge on turn 0/1, we have the firepower to win the game with shaman/ooze. I would always recommend either tutor for crypt, faerie macabre or surgical extraction.
Containment Priest also has uses against dredge (if you can live that long) and also against Sneak and Show. We have also been discussing Phyrexian Revoker as a live card against the current meta as it shuts down many problem cards.
Good luck in the Open tomorrow and let us know how it goes!
Last edited by Julian23; 04-09-2017 at 07:02 PM. Reason: Removed flmes
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
Big issue is that dealing with combat planeswalkers are not a weak point for Miracles, but rather Jace is a weak point for Maverick, especially GSZ version. Combat Planeswalkers give us a chance to deal with the sissyboy and eventually turn the game into our favor (though honestly best way to deal with Miracles is to resolve a Choke or strip them out of colours/lands early on, it requires a bad hand from their side as they have an answer to all our shennanigans in a nutshell). I'm all hands for Garruk rather than Gideon or Nissa, as he is the also works as removal against fair decks. I can see though that specifically in Miracles matchup, Nissa is probably better.
I'm quite a devoted Vial version player and I used to think that Vial version is better vs Miracles. However, this is not exactly true.
1) before sb, instead of virtual 5 teegs we have 2 sanctum prelates, which are much worse than teegs overall. With gsz, plan of quick mother + gsz for 2 is much more real, and overall much stronger.
2) after sb, instead of virtual 6 teegs we have 2 prelates + 2 teegs, which are still less. If you lose the first game, winning two onwards takes a looot of luck. Should something go not-as-planned, stuff is immediately going down. Yes, you can vial things in end of turn, but it's not very useful as they will kill your stuff on your turn, and you, playing around Terminus, will be in the same position as gsz maverick, but with much less options & less CA.
My personal top-sb cards vs Miracles:
1) extra Teeg(s) - outta question
2) 2 Choke/Chains of Mephistopheles - with Predict versions gaining popularity, the latter becomes more and more viable, though Choke is never bad (they also started to bring Blood Moons, which makes their Tundras and Volcanics untap, silly stuff).
3) 2 Surgical Extractions: [1] many players side out counterbalance vs us; [2] stealing snapcaster food and responding to activation of top/terminus trigger won me quite some games.
4) Sword of Light & Shadow - I've been always switching in and out with this one, but my last word is - it is absolutely required in the 75. It gives this matchup something that even vials can't give you: guaranteed (unless Terminus) attack next turn. Also, bringing lots of problematic artifacts/enchantments makes their 1-2 Wear//Tear not enough to deal with all the stuff (extractions can also save your day time to time here).
5) 1-2 Pithing Needle - not necessarily 2, but 1 is pretty much required. More nasty artifacts to deal with, makes their deck handicapped with searching for answers if they can't deal with it fast.
6) 1-2 Garruk (or other combat planeswalker(s)) - gives an extra tool to win.
This results in minimum of 8 cards in sb that in my opinion any Maverick deck should hold in sb vs Miracles. Cool thing is that absolutely all of these are useful in other matchups.
Given how good is SoL&S, I started to think of playing an Eternal Witness in sb, to get back destroyed/countered hatecards and play them again. it also creates a loop vs decks like Pox: Witness gets back SoL&S, SoL&S gets back Witness. The loop can prob work vs Miracles too, but it's much harder to manage. I would never play Witness mainboard since the printing of DRS, but if control/stax decks are a thing in your meta, it might be quite good. Needs some testing :)
To make a prairie, it takes a clover and one bee. One clover, a bee, and revery...
In live events over the past two months Terminus decks got to the top 8 a total of 53 times. In that same time period, Thalia based strategies got there 51 times--does that mean Thalia strategies are as good as Miracles? What about Lotus Petal Strategies: 74 times. You are more likely to have gotten to a top 8 finish running lotus petals than Terminus--why is that?
It's because Legacy is a wide open format where decks go through ups and downs of performance. Stoneforge Mystic stragies got to the top 8 63 times, Delver strategies got to the top 8 46 times. Being ready to fight Lotus Petal decks is more important that being able to fight Terminus because Petal decks literally show up more, and perform well more. Its why Maverick does well at all tbh. Combo decks that crumble to Thalia/Teeg/DRS/Karakas along with Delver/Stoneforge Strategies are the main reasons we have good finishes.
The coveted "does well" idea your stuck on ignores the fact that lots of different strategies and styles perform well in Legacy. The reason Maverick performs well is because of the core cards that are inherent in its design. When you start cutting those out in order to improve just one single matchup--then you're literally cutting down your overall winrate to improve a specific winrate. But guess what, putting focus on just one matchup does not actually improve the deck's ability to perform well in an event. Why? Because you cannot guarantee that you'll only face Miracles for 15 rounds. And those favored matchups? They aren't guaranteed wins. Sometimes Show and Tell kills you by the 2nd turn, sometime RUG stifles you out of the game, sometimes double therapy from Pyromancer decks or even Nic Fit decks kills you before your deck does anything. The favored matchups are the reason Maverick does well in events. Win the matchups your supposed to win, minimize the matchups you're unlikely to win, get to top 8.
Maverick does well in either a fair metagame or an unfair metagame. I love playing against both UB Reanimator, Storm, etc... Because those are the decks Maverick is designed to combat. Decks that are weak to Thalia, weak to Knight of the Reliquary, and weak to Stoneforge--those are the favored matchups that Maverick wants to face. The tutor targets allows Maverick various levels of adaptability should your front line threats not be good enough.
In order to do all this, Maverick trims on the only thing it cannot get back--kill speed. Maverick is slow out the gates, and doesn't close things out quickly. Miracles has lots of good matchups, but all of them hinge on the idea that they need to get to the mid-game. I've seen Miracles die many many times to elves just because turn 2 Counterbalance was not enough to stop elves from killing them on turn 3. I've seen Miracles die to Burn with counter-top lock out because he was too low on life and could only counter 2 spells that turn and not 3. Of the many decks in Legacy, Maverick is the few that Miracles literally gets giddy about. We don't kill them quickly, they run tonnes of basics, and Terminus is house against us. That means they have the time, means, and patience to get wins. Thalia is good against them, but not when they have 6 lands out. Teeg stops terminus, but takes 10 turns to kill them in which case Plow/Snap/Karakas stops him. Equipment are strong, assuming someone picks them up. The actual Maverick strategy is the reason Miracles is favored. Its not because Miracles runs sweepers--sweepers are easy enough to beat. Its not because it runs removal--I've beaten Punishing Fire locks many times. Its not even counterbalance--since Maverick is a decay deck with GSZ and Pridemages. No, its literally the fact that if Miracles wanted a favored matchup the deck they would design in the abstract is Maverick. Slow to kill deck whose main forms of disruption dies to Swords to Plowshares and whose main way to counteract Swords to Plowshores is to put more threats on the field in order to maximize the effect of sweepers.
To transform that matchup to one where we beat them, one would need to literally change what Maverick is from a fundamental level.
Here are some suggestions: Don't run a lot of creatures. Cut the hatebears for countermagic. Cut the mana dorks for cantrips to find the countermagic. Run cheaper high damage threats like True-Name, Delver, or Goyf. Cut GSZ, cut Stoneforge Mystic because they're too slow and they'll kill your creatures anyway, add planeswalkers. Etc...
You know what you'll have in the end? A deck that can beat miracles a lot--but not one that I would call Maverick.
Tmagpie you didn't mention it in this post but I think you touched on it earlier. I think a big reason Maverick doesn't put as many results as other decks is a lot of people simply think it's bad or say well if I'm going to play Maverick I might as well play DnT because it's better positioned.
I don't think Maverick is bad. Is DnT better in the current meta? I would say yes generally. But if only 3 people bring Maverick to a 100 man event and 10 bring DnT what is much more likely to end up top8?
DnT. It then perpetuates DnT is a real deck while Maverick isnt. I just don't think Maverick is played as much for the above said reasons. But I think it can put results up and if more people played it I think that would show.
I hope that makes sense. My point is basically Maverick isn't as bad as people think but it underperforms at events because it isn't played as much. I think it's also a very tricky deck to pilot optimally. Yes certain matchups are as simple as slam down teeg/Thalia or get jitte online and go to town. But between Knight, GSZ and cards like scrub ranger I feel like the deck can have a very wide decision tree that can make the difference between a win or loss. Thalia and Gaddock Teeg also make sequencing very important.
I don't know what others think, but to me there was no purpose to improve winrate to 60-40 or smth - but just stand a fair chance vs Miracles while not hurting other matchups.
I'm sure that we can play and win vs Miracles (in my last post I explained how), without even bringing dedicated Miracles-hate slots. Finding the right pieces of the puzzle allow us to improve our chances to like 40-60. That's totally fine by me, I just want to have a fair chance against any deck I face (maybe with the exception of Belcher/OopsAllSpells, those are not really worth our slots), and not only when they mulligan to 2.
To make a prairie, it takes a clover and one bee. One clover, a bee, and revery...
I believe this is a very important point and one that I would also like to add on to. Maverick does suffer from being under-represented I think good pilots do have good finishes with the deck, but it is a very challenging deck to play optimally. Additionally maverick suffers from the inability to beat opponents nut draws. I believe Tmagpie pointed to this a bit earlier, but some match-ups we just can't do much about when they draw a nutter. Storm, Belcher, Sneak n Show, other Show n Tell and Dredge can all just go off on the first turn of the game leaving us no time to execute our gameplan. Similar things can be said about fairer match-ups such as eldrazi, painter, loam other blood moon/chalice decks where they do just have a turn one blood moon or a turn one chalice that keeps us from playing magic. I think those are some of the biggest reasons maverick is not a more played deck and why it fails to put up consistent top 8 finishes. Given a 9 round tournament we will lose matches to those kinds of games.
Additionally regarding the miracles match-up. Miracles is the best deck in the format. You all need to stop bickering about it being the best deck in the format. If you disagree thats totally fine, its just what most people think. We don't have to have a positive match-up against miracles to be a viable or good deck. Turning maverick into a deck with a positive miracles match-up likely dillutes our deck to the point of suffering too much against other 50/50 to slighty positive match-ups. What we should be discussing is how to best tinker with the deck to bring the match-up to 45/55 without drastically affecting our other match-ups. Additionally the DnT poster brought up a great point of how many sideboard cards should we bring in to the miracles match-up. I believe in the past I've been bringing in 6 or 7. How many cards does everyone else bring in? Also what cards are people taking out? I have seen that over the past 1.5 years of lurking on or reading this thread what people bring out in this match-up varies widely.
Lastly in terms of streamlining the deck I do believe that GSZ maverick lists should all start somewhere around NEELEY's list and go from there. Thats where my list has been for a long time, just with some changes (such as Dark Depths combo, but thats also because I'm only playing in paper, and my metagame has been very susceptible to it).
I have played many 'stock' no thrills Maverick lists and for awhile switched to playing a lot more fringe stuff like Sigarda, rallier, tirleless tracker etc.. I have kind of cut the crap and started to play a list very close to Neeley's. It feels good. How are you fitting in the depths combo? Are you cutting cradle?
Thanks for any insight:)
Yes, I am not playing cradle. It essentially translates to playing one less land that taps for mana. Greedy I know, but it has worked out for me pretty well.
In the past when people have talked about the combo many people have talked about it being a crutch that you can be tempted to lean on. I view it as a complement to how maverick attacks other decks on multiple axes. It's almost like a third dimension to how we already attack other players. Maverick generally attacks players through pressure on the ground with knight/equipment/other creatures and by pressuring their mana with wasteland/thalia. Dark depths gives you the option to pressure them with a combo that ends the game. You can occasionally make a marit lage quite quickly which gives you a good out to other aggressive decks and combo decks. There is also a plethora of decks that do a good job of answering your primary threats, but have little to no way of dealing with an indestructible flying 20/20.
Those are the positives of the combo, it does have significant drawbacks mainly being the mana. In the context of the right metagame it's excellent. In a more open metagame such as at an open, GP, or other large legacy event I'm not as sure it would be correct. However I'm sure you could catch plenty of people by surprise with it.
Awesome thanks for the reply. I have played the combo before and sometimes it just absolutely wrecks. I'm going to Valhalla games win a lotus in Columbia MO at the end of the month. I know the list I'm bringing will be close to Neeley's. Certain inclusions like dark depths combo are tempting. If I don't add dark depths I know I'm probably going to swap one of the forests for a cavern of souls.
The last days of comments made me want to comment on my experiences with the Miracles matchup. I only play once a week so there's not a whole lot of testing, also I didn't play Maverick for the last couple of months so bear that in mind.. Also I don't really have time to work on this text to make it smooth reading, but if you're interested enough you'll read it anyway.
I've been trying to improve the Miracles matchup for the last two or three years, not working hard on it with a lot of testing but considering options and trying them out every now and then. Miracles has been the number one deck in the local meta at times so I've played against it a lot, but the Legends build has been very popular so my experience is with that version primarily. I guess some 2-3 years ago a version more similar to the current version was more popular (winning with Entreat or Jace, which can be fought with Gaddock, who's much less useful vs the Legends build).
Vs Miracles I tend to bring out most copies of Thalia and Mother of Runes since they are all very low impact, they don't really put a pressure on Miracles and just help make their Termini better. I realize that both of these are controversial to bring out. I've just been really unhappy sitting with multiple Thalias in hand, this could be due to the Legends build having been overrepresented locally and their Karakas makes Thalia about as threatening as a fly on your shoulder, with multiple copies in hand being really unimpressive. Also, Miracles has 4 StP's, 3 Snapcasters and millions of cantrips - they will usually be able to StP Mother if they want to and otherwise they can find a Terminus. I also usually bring out 1-2 of the 3 StP's I usually play, keeping 1-2 to fight Clique and Mentors.
Gaddock Teeg may have become better again with the increased usage of Entreat, still he's answered by the often maindecked Council's Judgment and overrun by Monastery Mentor. And to have any chance of having a Gaddock in play you need both Mother and Gaddock and then a third creature to apply any pressure since you don't want to give them the opportunity to flash in Snappy to block-kill an attacking Gaddock. Thus Gaddock forces you to overcommit into Terminus AND can be ignored by Mentor wins AND is answered by Council's Judgment (and Karakas). He was super great a few years ago, but with Mentor and maindecked answers I don't think one can count on that anymore. And if you pack extra copies in the sideboard you need to consider that they may bring in Mentors. Maybe the current Miracles build is more exposed to Gaddock, though, I'd like to hear if someone has a comment on this.
I tend to bring in:
2 Pithing Needle are brought in for dealing with SDT and occasionally a Jace.
1 Engineered Plague, for dealing with monk tokens but it can also name Wizards and kill current and future Snapcasters and Cliques, which can be good for clearing the way for an attack into Jace
1 Choke, if I have it. But never play it with an artifact in play and vice versa
1 Planeswalker. If I have one. Typically Garruk Relentless.
0-2 Thoughtseize, for grabbing early SDT, Counterbalance, Snapcaster, Jace etc.
0 Abrupt Decays. I maindeck 3 due to Miracles's local presence (historically).
Note that none of these cards are specifically for Miracles. At times I've tried Bitterblossom and Lightning Greaves. They even work together, giving the Faeries haste is nice. Bitterblossom obviously creates tokens every turn which makes it a 2 CMC planeswalker in the Miracles matchup (even better since they can't destroy it with Clique or Snapcaster), but it becomes worse after boarding when they bring in Wear/Tear. I have actually tried maindecking it, which I did at GP Prague 2016 but I never met Miracles there. Lightning Greaves is for making KotR a real threat, 6/6-ish hasting untargetable creatures can be a problem for Miracles, or that is my hypothesis. Every single creature you play helps bring in damage points and fighting Jace. Greaves is also good vs any deck with a lot of removal, it's really good if you're playing Depths+Stage (gives Knight haste so you can get Depths faster, then gives Marit Lage haste too giving you kills out of nowhere, basically possible from an empty board at the end of the opponents turn). Worth noting is that both Greaves and Blossom are improved by the addition of Renegade Rallier; when the opponent answers them you have a way to bring them back.
Choke rarely shone for me vs Miracles, neither did Winter Orb. I may have had bad luck, but I've seen the same effects when other decks have been using these cards. The Miracles player sits back and spins top once a turn, making a few additional landdrops. They can still Terminus and Sword creatures efficiently and have found their enchantment removal in time. The nail in the coffin for my belief that we can pack lock-down pieces in the shape of enchantments or artifacts to win this matchup was when playing Sylvan Plug just to beat them with this strategy. Having 5-6 permanents removed two at a time by their Wear/Tear no 1, Snapcaster Wear/Tear and then Wear Tear no 2 felt pretty bad and since then I don't put too much faith in these approaches. Similarly I've cast Armageddon vs Miracles just to have them recover faster with an active SDT. Maybe you all had different experiences.
I've also tried packing several Leovolds and Tireless Trackers to give cards that must be answered and that are both threats and generate card advantage AND can be protected by Mother. I wrote about that in this thread something like six months ago, and it also didn't really work out.
Some other approaches I've been intending to try are:
- Playing 3 GSZ's and 2 Vials to improve win percentages. I've done this successfully with other decks (perhaps you've seen my comments about MOST) so I'm curious to experiment with it in Maverick. Maybe the creature count will be too low.
- Playing 1-2 Nissa, Vital Force in the sideboard. She turned up in Nic Fit early after printing and has been doing great since, Elves too as I'm sure you're all aware. Maverick can easily tutor for Cradle and power this out around turn 3-4.
[Edit: have also intended to try 1 md Ghost Quarter and Loam and 1 sb GQ and Crucible to get rid of Miracles's white mana sources]
Last edited by pettdan; 04-10-2017 at 02:53 PM.
I think that these past couple of days the Maverick community has been coming together to voice their opinions about this specific deck. I've been playing the deck extensively for a year now. I've been grinding a lot of Legacy Classics and nearby 1Ks. I even started a WordPress about Maverick and shared my reports with the deck (I'm still trying to work out the kinks as far as wordpress, but I am planning on writing more about the deck). I am on the perspective to say that MTGO results don't always reflect paper magic, so at first glance, I am hesitant to try out NEELYs list. (I do not believe that having a stock list will have a higher chance of beating Miracles flat out).
Fundamentally speaking, we are a mid-range deck playing against a Control deck that has prison elements. We don't have the best matchup with the deck, we can all agree with that statement, however, it is not unbeatable. I have not seen enough suggestions are far as drawing more cards or slowing Miracles down from drawing cards. I've been on leovold for a while now and it has been a major pain in the butt for Miracles. The times that I won against Miracles was when I had either a Dark Confidant in play, a Tireless tracker in play with enough clues to crack to draw more cards, Thrun+SoLas, and a very few times DRS activations.
I participated in the SCG Worcester last minute (I was sponsored by BMG to play). I know that I made major misplays, and my deck isn't no where I want it to be, but I had fun, and the games that I lost where very close.
3x DRS
3x Mother of Runes
2x Noble Hierarch
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Qasli Pridgemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
4x Knight of the Reliqury
1x Tireless Tracker
1x Renegade Railler
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Green Sun's Zendith
2x Collected Company
1x Sylvan Lirbary
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
4x Windswepth Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
2x Savannah
2x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Horizon Canpoy
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Plains
1x Forest
SB:
2x Thoughtseize
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Ehtersoworn Canonist
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Choke
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Surgical Extracation
1x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1x Qasli Pridgemage
1x Pithing Needle
At the end of 9 Rounds. I went 5-4 for my first Legacy Open. Lost to Burn, UW Stoneblade, DnT, and Miracles. Won aganist Burn, Burn, BR Reanimator, Death and Taxes, and Miracles.
Finished 6-2 at today's Legacy Classic and just missed out of top 16 on breakers. Faced the following:
Rd 1 - Loss vs Punishing Abzan [0-1]
Rd 2 - Win vs BUG Delver [1-1]
Rd 3 - Win vs 4c Control [2-1]
Rd 4 - Loss vs U/R Delver [2-2]
Rd 5 - Win vs Dredge [3-2]
Rd 6 - Win vs Sneak/Show [4-2]
Rd 7 - Win vs Miracles [5-2]
Rd 8 - Win vs BUG Delver [6-2]
I played a list quite similar to the one I posted yesterday, only swapping out a Tireless Tracker for a 2nd Rallier.
I lost a super grindy and close matchup to the Punishing player (who ended up going undefeated in the Swiss) after failing to see a single StP or Decay the entire match and having his Dark Confidants go unchecked in each game. Also lost to Emma Handy playing U/R Delver. She blew me out by end step brainstorming, putting a Thunderous Wrath (!!) on top, revealing it to flip her Delver and then miracle'ing it to kill my Knight. Felt gross. Also punted in the next game and completely forgot about the existence of Submerge - lesson learned, never activate Knight against a deck that plays Submerge
Anyway, the rest of my matches went generally according to plan. Got lucky to beat Dredge game 1 on the draw, and lucked out when my Miracles opponent mulled to 5 in game 1. Getting game 1 vs both those decks is a big deal.
I think moving forward I'm going to cut the Ralliers completely and maybe go back to a 3rd Stoneforge and 3rd Equipment (most likely Sword of Light/Shadow). It's really sweet when you can live the dream and get value from the Rallier, but it's so hard to set up and they just seem to rot in the hand.
Regarding the above discussion about boarding for Miracles. My plan this weekend was:
-4 StP, -1 Cradle, -1 Mother, -1 Thalia, -1 Knight
+2 Choke, +1 Chains of Mephistopheles, +1 Needle, +1 Sword Light/Shadow, +1 Garruk, +1 Prelate, +1 Teeg
The more I think about it, the more I think it's probably correct to cut more Mothers and fewer StP's. They lean hard on Mentors out of the board and really count on us cutting our removal. Mom is just so easily played around, especially now that basically all the Miracles lists are running Explosives. In any case, I went 2-0 in this matchup over the weekend and beat a few pretty skilled players which was pretty gratifying.
How were the collected companies?
Sorry guys!
I let the internet get to me and didn't mean to bring the thread down with a rude and disrespectful attitude. I am really glad that we are focused on improving the deck and I feel like the Maverick thread is alive for the first time in ages.
On a better note I can say that I 4-0'd a local today with a build that I decided to play after the posts over the past few days. I ran the table against Delver, Sneak and Show and Eldrazi while winning a close 2-1 set against DnT. I will get a list up soon and hopefully I can real the current discussion tonight/tomorrow.
And the list:
Creatures(26)
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Sanctum Prelate
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Dryad Arbor
Spells(8)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
Things(5)
1 Sylvan Library
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Sword of LIght and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
Lands(21)
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforst
1 Cavern of Souls
Sideboard(15)
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Choke
3 Containment Priest
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle
I understand that Deathrite Shaman is most likely the correct card, but I absolutely want to have an active mana dork on turn 2(between GSZ for arbor and heirarch) so I can cast GSZ for teeg/ooze/pridemage, knight, or prelate every time. I am currently at the dreaded 61 and am having trouble making the cut....
I decided that testing multiple Prelates in a deck that loves weenies and crushes fair decks is most likely a good idea. She is good against anything that isn't Death and Taxes, which is a good match-up for us either way.
Prelate + Mom kills most of the format as they have minimal ways to kill creatures after 1 is locked out.
Prelate + Teeg is GG against miracles, storm, sneak and show and most every non-interactive deck that exists.
I am working on what to name with prelate in all match-ups to see where she really shines.
Did we put effort into testing prelate builds when she came out? If we did what page number if there is any discussion I should read.
Peace!
Last edited by lavafrogg; 04-10-2017 at 04:18 AM.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
Hi,
that's a very interesting approach! I would personally play 2x mb +1x sb, as there are much more than D&T where Sanctum is not-so-amazing, including Maverick and decks with 1,2,3-cost removal. There are decks like RUG delver though that get obliterated by this card if it resolves. I would even consider playing 2x Caverns (Hierarchs are humans, huh), since with Prelates they aid to throw delver decks from the roof.
I also think that in your particular version Hierarchs are justifiable. They are really bad to -1/-1 effects and forked bolts, but you can just lock those effects out with Prelates. Additionally, since Sanctum Prelates are very bad fighters, Hierarchs compensate for that, giving them +x/+x when attacking. But watch out for graveyard strategies: I see that you play 3x Faerie Macabre in sb, but I'd in your place diversify the hate a bit.
Another thing I would strongly consider playing in your list is the Thespian Stage + Dark Depths combo. In e.g. Death & Taxes matchup, it makes Prelates very valuable: you can turn off Swords and kill them with the combo if they are not expecting it. Same for Miracles.
Now a drop of criticism. I'd play Garruk over Gideon honestly. Another thing I really disagree with is B/G sword in the place of U/R: what are you even doing against a Fish? Once resolved, True-name just wins the game if you don't have an U/R Sword and/or Zealous Persecutions. If I were you, I'd also add 1-2 Council's Judgements to sb to have some extra Fish protection post-board. It also helps against a huge variety of things.
I made a slightly alternative take on your deck here: https://deckstats.net/deck-12830141-...5b4872712.html, might give it a try.
Now, a short guide to naming stuff with Prelate:
It's quite important that your opponent can respond to Prelate. If they have a Brainstorm in hand and you are likely to name [1], they will probably respond with it. If they have an Abrupt Decay and you are likely to name [2], they might just kill something on your field. If they don't respond, it might be a signal that they don't have the card. But don't overdo the logic, your opponent could make mistake too ;)
Delver decks: [1] if you don't know which delver, between [1] and [2] if it's BUG (trust your gut feeling: do they have an abrupt or a push)? I often pick 2 as it doesn't shut my own Swords.
Show&Tell: pretty much always [3], except rare cases if you somehow suspect a Pyroclasm or a naked Sneak Attack. Some weird people still play the [12]-mana sorcery that draws the deck, but this is very unlikely.
Miracles: [1] if you don't have a Mom and [6] if you do. If you have Mom+Teeg, go for 3 and lock them out pretty much completely.
Nic Fit: [3], [3], [3]. Yeah, they might have an AD, they might have Cabal Therapy, but with no information just name [3]. They often don't run much non-PD removal. If it's the Jund combo Scapeshift version, or Jund Punishing Fire version, [2] can be a decent pick too. But [3] is still decent since Pernicious Deed and Toxic Deluge send our deck to oblivion.
Burn: trust your gut. Before sideboard, often [6] is a good idea since it finishes many games real quick, but [2] can be also decent if your manabase feels icky to Price of Progress. Naming [1] is usually not so interesting since they often have already played their 1-drops by the time your play Prelate, and many people try to minimize 1-drops, especially non-creature, due to the popularity of Miracles. After sideboard, [2] is almost always a best pick, since they very often bring in 4x Smash to Smithereens and extra Searing Blazes.
Pox: [2], couldn't go wrong with that.
Infect: This one's tricky. [1] is pretty much the obvious choice, but [3] can be also decent if you rely on a Swords in your hand. Remember that they can kill us with the infect land or unblockable creature and a couple of Hierarchs without even casting anything.
Storm: before sideboard, [2] seems like a neat pick, against both versions: it shuts AD and their every wincon except a natural draw of lots of Dark Rituals (not Cabal Rituals!) and Ad Nauseum/Past in Flames, which is unlikely. Post-board, due to Massacre, [4] is a better option unless you've got a Teeg incoming.
Eldrazi: [2] to lock out chalice-for-1, post-board you can also name [3] for Dismember or [7] for All is Dust, but it's best to just side them out.
Dragon Stompy: [4] unless you have some kind of information that could suggest a better number.
Merfolk: [5] for Force or [2] for Jitte and Daze. Overall, quite useless, side them out.
Goblins: useless, can name [1] for Tarfire and Vials but be sure not to screw yourself with the Swords.
Bant: [1].
BUG control: [2], unless you sense a Liliana. If this is a cascade version, [0] for Ancestral Visions is a very decent pick too.
Loam/Lands: [2].
Reanimator: I personally prefer to name [2], as they have 8x 2-mana reanimations and 4x 1-mana ones. Also shuts AD and Collective Brutality.
Aluren, Dredge: [4].
Food Chain: [3].
Elves: padawan jedi sense you should train. [4] is natural not to die next turn from a Natural Order, but a good Glimpse could be easily stopped by a [1]. If you can Zenith for Teeg the turn after, locking both seems like a good idea, the order is up to your senses.
Goblin Charbelcher / Oops, All Spells: congrats, if the game went on to you casting a Prelate then something terrible happened to your opponent's hands. Either way, can't go wrong with a [4].
Hope it helps! Please don't hesitate to correct me if you think I'm wrong somewhere, or add ideas.
Last edited by aspsnake; 04-10-2017 at 10:20 AM.
To make a prairie, it takes a clover and one bee. One clover, a bee, and revery...
Okay I think it's funny that you say that you are hesitant to play my list. Myself and Jj Garlock have played Maverick for years now and travel together so we have talked a lot about our list here is some of our results in paper with Maverick and they are all pretty much the "stock list".
Here is Jj results I could fine
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...p_last=Garlock
Here are my results which only include a couple good finished with Maverick, I have been on Aggro Loam since the Findlay IQ. Ignore Daniel Neeley, it isn't me. http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...&p_last=Neeley
The stock list is well tuned, we don't like to play cute things because we want to be consistent.
I almost don't remember not top 32ing or at least having a winning record playing at the local classics(Ohio and Indiana). You don't see this from the results but I have a great win percentage in the SCG's I played in. I know I found my name on the list when someone posted people's win loss record and win % on twitter. What I'm trying to say if you want consistency and good results don't play cards like collected company.
You got a link to the Wordpress? I'd love to read it.
Mom-mom had to die because of the ground chemicals. http://achewood.com/index.php?date=10272003
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