All B/R update speculation.

[Barook]

What the hell is Aaron Forscythe even doing these days?

http://mtg.gamepedia.com/Aaron_Forsythe

He's barely involved in set design nowadays and he sure as fuck isn't involved in R&D (see: Standard requiring bans).

[Megadeus]

In the same breath he said that Daze should be banned along with Ancient Tomb (if Top was banned). Take that for what it's worth.

Agreed. Not sure why he thinks tomb and daze should be banned. It's all just in the name of keeping the actual thing that needs to be banned alive and doesn't answer the real problem card

[CutthroatCasual]

If anything should get banned from Miracles, it should be either Mentor or ETA (preferably ETA). Don't neuter the core of the deck; force it to find another (see: worse) finisher. Mentor can be dealt with with most removal, so he's easier to answer than ETA, which facilitates the "durdle for x-turns, EOT cast untap win" and is harder to answer with instant speed spot removal. Mentor also requires a spell investment, which means Miracles can't just sit back and cast a single card (i.e. ETA) and win the game; they need to cast spells if they want to win with Mentor.

Getting rid of ETA makes spot removal better, means Miracles now needs to cast spells instead of land-go-ETA-win, and doesn't effectively kill the only hard-control deck in the format.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Given it's debatable how much worse Mentor is than Entreat, that won't change much. It doesn't fundamentally change the deck, you still play it for the exact same reason, you just kill people differently

[Ronald Deuce]

If anything should get banned from Miracles, it should be either Mentor or ETA (preferably ETA). Don't neuter the core of the deck; force it to find another (see: worse) finisher.

The problem is that the finishers aren't what makes Miracles so oppressive (people are still playing Venezuelan Legends, in spite of the fact that there's virtually no justifiable reason to do so when you can just hulk out and crush someone). Nor, for that matter, is Terminus, nor Brainstorm or Ponder. It's the aggregate of all the pieces that makes the deck so difficult to beat.

I suspect that if Wizards cares about Legacy (which is open for debate), the reason they haven't banned anything from Miracles is that they don't see a clear target. They could ban Top, but that'll put the screws to other decks like 12-Post, Doomsday, and Nic Fit. They could ban Brainstorm, but we all know how that would turn out (whether that'd be a good thing seems to be the primary subject of this thread). They could ban Ponder, but that raises the question of why they'd ban the second-best cantrip. They could ban Terminus, but that raises the question of why they wouldn't ban one of the cards that makes it so powerful (six mana for a board-wipe is unplayable). They could ban any number of finishers, but none is oppressive on its own in the format except in Miracles.

If I were to choose a ban—and I'm not advocating for this; I'm just saying what makes the most sense to me—I'd ban Counterbalance. Sure, it relies on Top or Brainstorm to come anywhere close to being as powerful as Chalice, Thorn, either Sphere, or Thalia, but that's really the card on which the entire deck hinges and the card that makes it so tough for almost every spell-casting deck to beat. Any of the other cards, or any combination of the other cards, would be fine if it weren't for Counterbalance (I'd be interested to see what Miracles would look like without CB, and I'm not being facetious). Counterbalance provides often-free (and card-neutral) countermagic continuously from the turn it hits the field, it's overwhelmingly likely to be just as useful as the more powerful cards I just listed, and it isn't used anywhere else.

The real problem with Miracles is that it's a gestalt deck. Ban any of the pieces and you'll have a really tough time justifying why you've chosen that piece. If there's a single one that would cause the least damage to the rest of the format, but that wouldn't be a ridiculous and unjustifiable ban, it'd be Counterbalance.

[Gheizen64]

Or unban SotF and Recruiter. While both go in bad decks, said bad decks are deece vs miracles. Put more predators in.

[bruizar]

The problem is that the finishers aren't what makes Miracles so oppressive (people are still playing Venezuelan Legends, in spite of the fact that there's virtually no justifiable reason to do so when you can just hulk out and crush someone). Nor, for that matter, is Terminus, nor Brainstorm or Ponder. It's the aggregate of all the pieces that makes the deck so difficult to beat.

I suspect that if Wizards cares about Legacy (which is open for debate), the reason they haven't banned anything from Miracles is that they don't see a clear target. They could ban Top, but that'll put the screws to other decks like 12-Post, Doomsday, and Nic Fit. They could ban Brainstorm, but we all know how that would turn out (whether that'd be a good thing seems to be the primary subject of this thread). They could ban Ponder, but that raises the question of why they'd ban the second-best cantrip. They could ban Terminus, but that raises the question of why they wouldn't ban one of the cards that makes it so powerful (six mana for a board-wipe is unplayable). They could ban any number of finishers, but none is oppressive on its own in the format except in Miracles.

If I were to choose a ban—and I'm not advocating for this; I'm just saying what makes the most sense to me—I'd ban Counterbalance. Sure, it relies on Top or Brainstorm to come anywhere close to being as powerful as Chalice, Thorn, either Sphere, or Thalia, but that's really the card on which the entire deck hinges and the card that makes it so tough for almost every spell-casting deck to beat. Any of the other cards, or any combination of the other cards, would be fine if it weren't for Counterbalance (I'd be interested to see what Miracles would look like without CB, and I'm not being facetious). Counterbalance provides often-free (and card-neutral) countermagic continuously from the turn it hits the field, it's overwhelmingly likely to be just as useful as the more powerful cards I just listed, and it isn't used anywhere else.

The real problem with Miracles is that it's a gestalt deck. Ban any of the pieces and you'll have a really tough time justifying why you've chosen that piece. If there's a single one that would cause the least damage to the rest of the format, but that wouldn't be a ridiculous and unjustifiable ban, it'd be Counterbalance.

I would ban SDT. While i agree with everything you said, you missed logistical reasons of endless top spinning and fetching. Being able to see 6 or 9 cards deep in a turn is unfair. Nonblue decks cant profit from this like blue can because they dont have counterspells to protect them in the early game.

[Claymore]

I could see them banning Top if only because it can start to limit design space and impacts the "top of the deck" trend they've had lately.

It turned a 6 mana wrath and a random effect bulk rare into an oppressive deck that has warped Legacy so much for years that people don't think there's anything wrong with the format.

[Whitefaces]

If anything should get banned from Miracles, it should be either Mentor or ETA (preferably ETA). Don't neuter the core of the deck; force it to find another (see: worse) finisher. Mentor can be dealt with with most removal, so he's easier to answer than ETA, which facilitates the "durdle for x-turns, EOT cast untap win" and is harder to answer with instant speed spot removal. Mentor also requires a spell investment, which means Miracles can't just sit back and cast a single card (i.e. ETA) and win the game; they need to cast spells if they want to win with Mentor.

Getting rid of ETA makes spot removal better, means Miracles now needs to cast spells instead of land-go-ETA-win, and doesn't effectively kill the only hard-control deck in the format.

I think for the first time I agree with you. I'd be in favor of EtA leaving the format more than any other card in the deck.

[hovercraft]

I think for the first time I agree with you. I'd be in favor of EtA leaving the format more than any other card in the deck.

I feel like you'd have to ban 1 of SDT, CB or Terminus to really have an impact. Entreat is powerful, but Miracles would find another win con without it. (Mentor, Snap, Clique, Planeswalkers, etc)

[Whitefaces]

I feel like you'd have to ban 1 of SDT, CB or Terminus to really have an impact. Entreat is powerful, but Miracles would find another win con without it. (Mentor, Snap, Clique, Planeswalkers, etc)

That's not why I think Entreat should be banned. I think Miracles, or at least a control deck akin to it is healthy for the format. Terminus is a safety valve for swarm strategies, and CB is similar for combo. I think Ronald Deuces comment above articulates very well the problem with banning something from the deck, it's hard to pinpoint the right one.

And CCasual makes the fine point of how different Entreat plays out to Mentor. It lets the deck do what it does best, be reactive and then kill in one hit. It's incredibly hard to fight that, especially non-blue fair decks. But they have the tools to fight all the other win conditions Miracles plays.

[Barook]

Terminus is a safety valve for swarm strategies

Except alot of quality mass removal still exists. And the format was fine before Avacyn Restored, Delver bullshit starting around that time aside. Terminus is the answer to a problem that never existed in the first place.

[Megadeus]

Exactly. Pyroclasm, EE, Deluge, Supreme Verdict, Ratchet Bomb. All sorts of sweepers exist at all sorts of mana costs. But they are dwarfed by comparison to W Instant get rid of all creatures. Cant get around it with protection. Cant get around it with indestructible, hexproof, or just having a recurring threat because it is a tuck effect.

[hovercraft]

That's not why I think Entreat should be banned. I think Miracles, or at least a control deck akin to it is healthy for the format. Terminus is a safety valve for swarm strategies, and CB is similar for combo. I think Ronald Deuces comment above articulates very well the problem with banning something from the deck, it's hard to pinpoint the right one.

And CCasual makes the fine point of how different Entreat plays out to Mentor. It lets the deck do what it does best, be reactive and then kill in one hit. It's incredibly hard to fight that, especially non-blue fair decks. But they have the tools to fight all the other win conditions Miracles plays.

I can see the logic there, as ETA is hard to deal with when played at eot. I still feel like Terminus is more oppressive though, White already has unconditional removal at W with Swords. Miracles could play a couple Supreme Verdict if Terminus were banned, but it would give creature based decks a bit more reach against them. The fact that Terminus can hit essentially every creature in the format and sweep the board for W at instant speed is nuts.

Alternatively they could print some anti-miracle instant speed discard spells to give non blue decks a way to stop a miracle, but I don't see that happening. I know Funeral Charm and such exists but only works if opponent is hellbent before the miracle.

[rufus]

...Terminus is a safety valve for swarm strategies, and CB is similar for combo. ...

I don't think CB is a particularly good anti-combo card. Regardless, there are lots of other strong answers available for both swarm and combo, so those specific cards are not vital the way something like FoW might be.

[Megadeus]

I don't think CB is a particularly good anti-combo card. Regardless, there are lots of other strong answers available for both swarm and combo, so those specific cards are not vital the way something like FoW might be.

Cb is your lock piece. If that card doesn't exist something like storm probably can eventually grind out a long game against miracles fairly well. As of now though they have to warp their SB to play an off color spell to answer CB. Some I've seen are even starting to play a couple decays in the Main

[non-inflammable]

I always want to see miracles in the format; ban Terminus and it opens up zoo and affinity as a "reasonable" deck choice.
Zoo was a very popular deck choice around 2010. That's what my very young son played then and he had a blast playing it, simple and linear.

SDT sees too much play in other decks to justifiably ban it just to nerf miracles.
I just started playing imperial/painter and top makes that deck perform incredibly well.
I've even played SDT in POX and Lands.

Ban Terminus and see what aggro decks can become viable again...

no really, ban brainstorm..

[JDK]

SDT sees too much play in other decks to justifiably ban it just to nerf miracles.
I just started playing imperial/painter and top makes that deck perform incredibly well.
I've even played SDT in POX and Lands.

Decks playing SDT that are not Miracles are rare in numbers and rare in metagame share. Of course it would suck for those decks and players, but Top enables much ob the problematic mechanics (CB Lock, Miracle Setup) and takes a significant amount of time, even when played by experienced players.

For me, Top is bane #1. But I would probably party if Terminus or CB go as well.

[CutthroatCasual]

Cb is your lock piece. If that card doesn't exist something like storm probably can eventually grind out a long game against miracles fairly well. As of now though they have to warp their SB to play an off color spell to answer CB. Some I've seen are even starting to play a couple decays in the Main

MD Decay is more because of Leovold, not CB.

I always want to see miracles in the format; ban Terminus and it opens up zoo and affinity as a "reasonable" deck choice.
Zoo was a very popular deck choice around 2010. That's what my very young son played then and he had a blast playing it, simple and linear.

SDT sees too much play in other decks to justifiably ban it just to nerf miracles.
I just started playing imperial/painter and top makes that deck perform incredibly well.
I've even played SDT in POX and Lands.

Ban Terminus and see what aggro decks can become viable again...

no really, ban brainstorm..

Miracles didn't push Zoo out of the format; Delver did.

[Hanni]

MD Decay is more because of Leovold, not CB.


Miracles didn't push Zoo out of the format; Delver did.

Delver didn't push Zoo out of the format, Maverick did.