[Deck] UG Threshold - Winner of Legacy Championship.

[thefreakaccident]

I finally got around to test this varient of thresh just yesterday.

things I found out.

1.) the goblins MU is much weaker then UGR, but about the same as UGW.

2.) the control MU is way better, as well as the aggro-control MU (spell snare is a bitch).

3.) the combo MU is still great.... the fact that this version runs 8 fatties (4 tarmos and 4 bears) makes this much stronger than the other color splashes IMO.

I still prefer 4c myself, but I would hate to see this at the tourney... the 'mirror'.

I like the fact that the deck can be played in such a variety of ways.
UG, UGR, UGW, UGB, UGBR, UGBW, UGWR... 7 color varietions that are all competative; that's just silly if you ask me. I have seen them all, except for a 5 color build... which I don't think will ever happen.

[MattH]

And it's really more the fact that it's happened repeatedly that annoys me. Again, not annoyed at the winners in particular, but in the impression it might give outsiders about the format.

Also, what impression does it give the INSIDERS about the format? I mean, do you feel like this is a janky format? I don't really.

[Brushwagg]

1.) the goblins MU is much weaker then UGR, but about the same as UGW.

I haven't got to testing this MU yet, but I think I have to agree with you here. I'm pretty sure that you need to keep the Stifles for the Ringleaders and Matons. Keeping them off extra cards and finding the one they need seems to be the best way to beat them.

the control MU is way better, as well as the aggro-control MU (spell snare is a bitch).

As I said before it has better game aganist Landstill then 3 or 4 color. I've done alot of testing aganist Landstill and it is better but by no means a walk in the park. I've found the best way to beat Landstill is:

1. Keep Standstill off the table. Spell Snare is great at this. Not letting them draw extra cards is a real key to this match-up. As far as FoF goes make them fight for it if you can, but don't waste a ton of counters on it.

2. Make them 1 for 1 your threats. Having them waste a WOG on a Goose while you have extra threats in hand is alright. An early Goose can go the distance.

[Whit3 Ghost]

2. Make them 1 for 1 your threats. Having them waste a WOG on a Goose while you have extra threats in hand is alright. An early Goose can go the distance.

The other thing is that Goyf smashes through almost any possible Manland Wall, which used to be a huge thorn in our side.

Also, if your playing against a version of Landstill running Cunning Wish, watch out for Exterpate, because losing your threats or being cut off of a color. can be backbreakings.

[Brushwagg]

Also, if your playing against a version of Landstill running Cunning Wish, watch out for Exterpate, because losing your threats or being cut off of a color. can be backbreakings.

Yes it mainly the version that Geoff plays (he won the last Kadi tourney). But as far as Extirpate goes yes it can be a problem, but I found that if you can keep pressure on them going to find Extirpate is the least of there worries.

@Goyf: He keeps going on the farm. I try not to waste to much Counters on saving the critters. Unless I'm low on threats or they are with in killing distance. Your asking for trouble if you waste to much trying to save a creature that you can just find another one of. Just my thoughts on it.

[thefreakaccident]

Nought Goyf

lands//18
4 tropical island
4 wasteland
3 flooded strand
3 wooded foothills
2 breeding pool
1 island
1 forest

creatures//15
4 tarmogoyf
4 nimble mongoose
4 trinket mage
3 phyrexian dreadnought

other stuff//27
4 force of will
3 daze
3 counterbalance
3 sensei's divining top
4 stifle
2 trickbind
4 serum visions
4 brainstorm

not sure what the sideboard would look like.

[Citrus-God]

Gawd that deck looks soo sexy.

Cut 2 Dreadnaughts. It's better to fetch them with Trinket Mages, otherwise they'd be dead. That leaves two slots:

+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Bone Splitter/Pithing Needle

Bone Splitter is soo sexy, makes Goyf wars look like a joke.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

There's also O-Naginata, which would give the 'Goyfs trample. I agree, though, that you only really want Colossus through Trinket Mage. And also that you need more Mage targets. EE is a must, certainly, as is Pithing Needle. Seat of the Synod/Tree of Tales are also possibilities. Hell, you could even fetch a Meekstone, although it would screw you just as much as anyone else.

[diffy]

Gawd that deck looks soo sexy.

I agree... Here're some of my thoughts

How 'bout just going:
-2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
+2 Vedalken Shackles

Shackles is something widely played in the NQGr lists in Germany and it would fill the hole that this deck has: it lacks removal.
Also, Vedalken Shackles suplements the cmc3 for your Counterbalance.

You could also cut down one Sensei's Divining Top I think as you have the possibility to go fetch them with Trinket Mage and because multiples are redundant.
-1 Sensei's Divining Top
+1 Daze

You'll always want to have that Daze in the Early to Mid game and afterwards you can just scry it away.

Also, to optimize your Sensei's Divining Top // Counterbalance Engine you should try playing more fetches.
-2 Breeding Pool
-1 Flooded Strand
+2 Polluted Delta
+1 Island
-1 Wooded Foothills
+1 Windswepth Heath

It's not like you'll fear getting your Flooded Strands Needled and Polluted Delta->go is more likely to not put your Opponnent into you playing Aggro Control. Also, I like the 2nd Island because being able to cast everything of basics is helpfull against stuff like Goblins (they arn't dead yet!) and Randomness like Back to Basics or Blood Moon...

Also, I'm sure that Portent is superior to Serum Visions in this particular build because there's nothing like manipulating the top3 cards of your opponent when you've got a 12/12 beater on the table.

-4 Serum Visions
+4 Portent

not sure what the sideboard would look like.

In the Sideboard you'd definetely want to have the 4th Counterbalance, 2 to 3 Krosan Grips and some assortement of Engineered Explosives, Tormod's Crypts, Pithing Needles...

As a start I'd suggest this:

1 Counterbalance
2 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Explosives (Against Counterslives, Empty the Warrens, Zombies)
2 Tormod's Crypt (Trinket Mage target, probably to few)
3 Winter Orb (Landstill, Board Control)
4 Hydroblast (I expect Goblins to be a bad Matchup)

So after all changes, the list might probably look like this:

Gro ain't Naughty v0.1

Mainboard (60 cards)

4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswepth Heath
4 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Trinket Mage
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Portent
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle 
2 Trickbind
2 Vedalken Shackles

Sideboard (15 cards)
1 Counterbalance
3 Engineered Explosives 
2 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Winter Orb
4 Hydroblast

And also that you need more Mage targets.

I strongly disagree with putting in a more or less large toolbox as nearly always your Trinket Mage will fetch a Phyrexian Dreadnought (if you have a Stifle) or a Sensei's Divining Top (if you have shuffle effects / Counterbalance). Those being the two targets you'll always get first, you don't really need more because you don't want to draw your one offs at inoportune times and because it's quite unlikely that you'll hit more than 2 Trinket Mages.

[cheddercaveman]

To me with so few things to trinket out, the trinket mage is pointless. You'd be farther ahead dropping the 4 mages and the dreadnought and adding in one more top and 4 werebears. More consistantly getting damage in there. More consistantly drawing your countertop. Psionic Blast wouldnt be a terrible idea either, its removal, and good at closing that last gap of damage a little quicker.

[dicemanx]

I didn't say it wasn't fact that someone who isn't clearly acknowledged as being amongst the best to ever play the game and who hadn't practiced for the tournament won. I'm just annoyed that it is fact, and that this isn't the first time it's happened. I'm not blaming the winner for winnining, I'm annoyed at the circumstances that make Legacy seem less skill intensive, as if any competent player can waltz in and casually destroy the format, which is clearly scrub central.

And it's really more the fact that it's happened repeatedly that annoys me. Again, not annoyed at the winners in particular, but in the impression it might give outsiders about the format.

I don't think that the victory should give a bad impression of the format. I might not have practiced for the Legacy event specifically, but the deck I piloted was created by a strong player (Pham) that already did heavy testing and built a very strong (IMO) version of Threshhold. Furthermore, skills developed playing one format (especially one as unforgiving as vintage) are readily transferable, so it shouldn't be too devastating to have seasoned vintage players win the Legacy Champs in back to back years. In other words, I felt that I was hardly at a disadvantage versus other Legacy players at the event, and my lack of full knowledge of the format could be offset by the opportunity to outplay my opponents.

As I mentioned in another thread, each match was a challenge that came down to subtle plays that decided games. The deck had just enough resources to give me a fair chance to win against every deck that I faced; I can't say if Rushing River and Snapback were optimal, or that the Breeding Pool was a better choice than a Forest, but they sure came in handy in a number of matches where other cards like EE just wouldn't do. I think folks here might be adhering a little too tightly to removal; lack of removal didn't seem too critical against all of the Goyf-Threshhold mirrors or the Goblin decks that I faced, and the Goblins match-up is hardly as bad as some make it seem. I also liked the idea of Hailstorm out of the SB against Goblins, although it might have been better supported with two additional lands (2 Forest, or 1 Forest and 1 Island) in the SB to go with it. There was room in the SB for such measures since against most matches I just brought in the Counterbalance + Top combo (which is immensely powerful in almost every match-up that matters); the rest of the SB seemed largely inconsequential.

I'll leave it up to the rest of you to debate the merits of UG Threshhold versus UGr or UGw; I'll offer that UG seems to be quite solid in the mirror based on Wasteland, Stifle, and Spell Snare main, and given that Threshhold can count itself as a top tier archetype, that's saying a lot. I'll also contend that creature removal isn't as critical as it might seem against aggressive archetypes or in the mirror.

[thefreakaccident]

Gawd that deck looks soo sexy.

Cut 2 Dreadnaughts. It's better to fetch them with Trinket Mages, otherwise they'd be dead. That leaves two slots:

+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Bone Splitter/Pithing Needle

Bone Splitter is soo sexy, makes Goyf wars look like a joke.

Thanks for the advice, I haven't gotten a chance to test it much though :(.

I think that fetching a nought to dwarf a goyf is slightly better than the bonesplitte though.

I will add the EE though!

[Citrus-God]

Thanks for the advice, I haven't gotten a chance to test it much though :(.

I think that fetching a nought to dwarf a goyf is slightly better than the bonesplitte though.

I will add the EE though!

I guess EE can work too. Being able to dismantle SoFI is awesome.

[georgjorge]

I think playing Counterbalance + Naught, or Counterbalance + Stifles, doesn't work too well. The former suffers from a lack of 2cc-cards, making the Balance weaker (it loses Predicts and Werebears from the original UGr or UGw lists). The latter suffers from the fact that you want to drop Balance on turn two or three ideally, tapping out, while the cantrip base on the contrary is designed specifically to keep mana open for Stifles and Snares (the same is true for Trinket Mage).

I think, however, that the UG Stifle-Waste shell can incorporate the Naught combo pretty well. I also think that Loam should be used here (which also allows to run Intuition in the board, getting Loam + Waste + cycling land, or even Tabernacle + Loam + Maze against Aggro, or Loam + Academy Ruins + Crypt against Ichorid or Cephalid Breakfast, although I don't know if those plays would actually be fast enough to matter). My deck so far is...

8 Fetches
4 Tropicals
4 Wasteland
3 Island

4 Goyf
4 Mongeese
3 Naught

4 Force
4 Daze
4 Snare
4 Stifle
2 Life from the Loam
1 Trickbind

4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
3 Mental Note

and I think it does pretty well in a meta where due to the rise of Thresh, Landstill and other control is also rising, since it can not only Stifle or Waste some mana and then drop big creatures (Goyf and Naught) to beat down, but can also play the long game, Wasting every dual land of the opponent with Loam, or Intuition out of the board.

[dicemanx]

I'm not sure that I understand the logic of the Dreadnaught combo. Threshhold has no tutoring, and Stifle is ideally used as an early game mana denial card. Are you going to save your Stifle instead of using it on a 1st turn fetchland, all in the hope of resolving a Dreadnaught later? Doesn't sound like a winning plan. It's also unfortunate that one piece of the combo is otherwise utterly useless without the other part. I think if your intent is to try to win quickly off a combo like Naught-Stifle, or if you want to punch through the potential Tarmogoyf stalemates, you might as well go with equipment - Jitte is likely best, but only if Werebears are put back into the deck (to provide for alternate Jitte targets).

I do like the idea of Loam though for Wasteland recursion though.

[georgjorge]

Well, the Naught is there because the land denial plan doesn't always work out - you go second, or only have Stifles while your opponent lays duals. If your opponent obviously has more than enough mana, your Stifles will be pretty useless. Of course, it's not sure that the opportunity to trade them for a 12/12 makes up for the otherwise dead Naught in your hand, but I think with 4 Opt and 4 Brainstorm, you have some chance of avoiding or putting back dead cards...

[Brushwagg]

WTF is with Dreadnaught? I think the whole think falls into the "Dangers of doing cool things". It would be different if you didn't need a another card to play the Naught or the Naught didn't die to every form of removal (minus terror and a single burn spell) and Artifact hate out there. Adding a 12/12 dead card isn't going to make it any stronger.

This is waht I've been testing with and given what the meta looked like this past weekend(Eli's) I probably could've done pretty well with it.

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [TSP] Forest (3)
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [TSP] Island (3)
3 [B] Tropical Island
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
2 [OD] Werebear
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

// Spells
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [OD] Predict
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [FD] Serum Visions
3 [DIS] Voidslime
2 [B] Winter Orb

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DIS] Spell Snare
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [AL] Hail Storm
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

@Voidslime:What I really wanted was a another hard counter and another Stifle for this deck. It's been doing alright in testing even though it's only really usable turn 3 or later. But it's pitchable to FOW and makes up for Dazes crappiness in the late game.

@Kira: Testing. Mainly there to help Goyf's not get killed without costing me alot of counters. Was Plax Caster but it ended up not being so great.

@Winter Orb:Another slot I'm testing. I'm thinking it will help with mana denial, but I need to test more.

[thefreakaccident]

I think kira, voidslime, and orb are all in the "Danger of cool things" catagory, they all seem horrible to me... if only voidslime was just UG, then it would be good. Kira and voidslime have no place in the deck at all, not even just for shits and giggles.

[etrigan]

It should be noted that Winter Orb was a part of Alan Comer's original Miracle-Gro lists. The symmetry is easily broken with your low mana curve, and it makes Daze all the better.

[Brushwagg]

@Freak: I won't argue aboue about the VS or Kira, I'm testing them. But Winter Orb?? Seriously with mana denial already build into the deck, and the low mana curve of the deck already so why not? Can you reason this at all??