Hmm... Oblivion Ring is ok. You're right though, Suppression Field is good for anti-Deed.Originally Posted by Nihil
I'm still thinking Karmic Justice warrants an SB option just because your opponent is going to lose 1 permanent of your choice whether if they choose to remove it or another artifact/enchantment as long as Karmic Justice is in play. Thus you're trading cards 2-for-1.
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@ the valkyrie, your right.
@karmic justice
Im not sure about karmic justice... it looks really good.
when you do cast karmic justice first, that means before he does put pernicious deed into play he would want to disenchant it(thus you can destroy a permanent of his)..or if he already has deed in play he can just pop it in response to your playing the karmic justice... but then again.. he can also do the same if you had disenchant or seal...
its very interesting..its easy to cast..2 colorless and one white is never a problem for this deck...
Ill test it out.. its very protective and very good against deed or disk and the likes.. it helps our gameplan of destroying permanents..and we usually have around 3-5 permanents or even more lying around.. it also helps against wasteland...wastes one of our lands.. he loses 2 permanents(which includes his own wasteland)...
I didn't think about the 2-for-1 Wasteland. That's amazing. Karmic Justice Post-SB is really good I think. We have absolutely no creatures in this deck, so Karmic Justice's "noncreature permanent" doesn't apply to us. Karmic Justice acting as another permanent remover in addition to Smokestack/Armageddon/Magus of the Tabernacle is icing on the cake.
Yes its good.. but very defensive....
even disenchants.. or krosan grips.. as long as its in play.. its usually 2 for 1...
he uses disenchant.. you get to destroy a non creature permanent...2 cards for 1 card ...I think it will always be 2 for 1 as long as it hits play...
Ok first of all I went 1-2-1 at the tournament today. Very short report:
Rd 1 against W/G Stompy with Savannah Lions, Rancor, Equipments etc. (very casual, no duals or Jittes)
Game 1 I steamroll him with 2 Ghostly Prisons and Armageddon followed by Tabernacle and Smokestack.
Game 2 He gets rid of my only Ghostly Prison and bashes me down to 3 while I'm manascrewed. Luckily Crucible comes just in time allowing me to play Armageddon and Tabernacle again to put him on the ropes. Factory finishes it like in game 1.
Rd 2 against 3c Landstill (Ubw)
Game 1 I keep a hand with 2 Winter Orbs, Armageddon and lots of mana. My turn 1 Winter Orb resolves, so does my Smokestack and Geddon. He concedes.
Game 2 I probably boarded wrong. Meddling Mages on Geddon and Orb kill me before Smokestack can get enough counters to eat his board.
Game 3 He has another Mage on Geddon and casts Standstill. I draw and play Mishra's Factory to hold him back. I can't remember the details here but somehow I had to crack his Standstill (I think he had a Factory himself) and it went downhill from there as I couldn't draw enough relevant spells to stop the Mage beatdown (I think he played Swords on 2 Factories and Stifled the last activation of the third to get through for lethal).
Rd 3 against Aggro Loam
Game 1 My opponent had an early Dark Confidant and bashed me down with it plus a Tarmogoyf later while Wasteland recursion kept me at 3 mana the whole time. Because of his 2 Mox Diamonds I didn't really have a chance to get into the game.
Game 2 Mulligan to 4, nothing to see here. At one point I could've turned the game around with Armageddon into Tabernacle but Seismic Assault would've finished me anyway.
Rd 4 against UR Landstill
Game 1 My first turn Trinisphere resolved as did my second turn Ghostly Prison and third turn Winter Orb. At one point my opponent played Ice tapping my Trinisphere but he could only play a Brainstorm during his turn. I untapped, played Armageddon and that was game.
Game 2 He had Shattering Sprees for my Artifacts so it came down to a battle of the Factories. Eventually after some Wasteland and burn action I was at 6 life and he showed me double Bolt to end it.
Game 3 He got Nev Disk + Academy Ruins going but I easily played around it thanks to Winter Orbs and Suppression Fields. I also had 2 Crucibles to keep attacking with Factories but when extraturns were announced he was still at six and I only had one active Factory (he got the first extraturn so I only had turns 2 and 4 to attack him). During the second extraturn I played a freshly drawn Factory and activated the other. He didn't hesitate and bolted it. To save it I had to use both pump abilities so I couldn't attack that turn. Even if I had drawn another Factory I'd only be able to deal 5 damage during the 4th extraturn so we drawed.
In total that's a 2-3-1 record in games against Landstill that day. It could've been worse. Btw Aggro Loam and Survival got 1st and 2nd, another Staxdeck made 3rd place.
My list:
4 Armageddon
4 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Mox Diamond
3 Winter Orb
2 Exalted Angel
2 Powder Keg
8 Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
sb
4 Defense Grid
4 Suppression Field
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Powder Keg
Winter Orbs were great. I did miss singleton Wasteland a bit sometimes. Angel was drawn a total of 1 time against Aggro Loam where it was instantly burned down by Seismic Assault. The sideboard can stay as it is but I need to better memorize what I have to take out against some matchups (boarding was too random today). Everytime I saw Powder Keg it was good but I think it'll be replaced by Oblivion Ring anyway.
Possible changes in the future: -2 Angel -2 Keg; +3 Oblivion Ring, +1 Wasteland
Karmic Justice looks nice but unless you are married with Stax (like me it seems) you should just change your deck when you encounter that much hate.
"Anybody want some . . . toast?" —Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
Thank you for the detailed report. It is very interesting to see this deck's performance in different metagames.
How strong is Winter Orb?
How was the Chalice of the Void in sideboard instead of mainboarded? Was there any time in that tournment you wish you drawed one?
Actually there was not a single time I wanted Chalice although I did board it in against Aggro Loam. I will probably keep it in the board against combo but I'm currently searching for other solutions (there was only one Belcher present and I expect its pilot to play Survival next time).
Winter Orb is awesome, functioning as Armageddon 5-7. It even won me games against Threshold in testing. For a (very) short time I considered playing Tangle Wires to make the Orb even stronger but Tabernacle and Prisons already do a good job in this regard. Interestingly most of the time you don't have to wait for your opponent to tap out before you drop the Orb. As long as you can get to 4 mana in a reasonable time just play the Orb so he has another thing to play around. Trinisphere alone can slow your opponent down a lot. Orb + Sphere assures that he'll only play a spell every second turn.
Sadly the Orb can sometimes backfire against the wrong decks so I won't always recommend it.
"Anybody want some . . . toast?" —Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
Orb is the kind of card that Xerox decks used to run to shut down mana-heavy strategies like Control decks. It doesn't make sense to me that it would be good in Stax vs. Threshold. Doesn't Threshold have the ability to play around having few lands?
That's what I thought too but the reality is just a little bit different. It is quite astonishing how much difference having 1 mana and having 2 mana makes in most modern Threshold lists. I should add that lists maindecking Counterbalance are the most prevalent in my meta so there is definitely a difference in the effectiveness of Orb against "Bardo-style" Threshold and what I tested against. Regardless, a lot of times you make them need more than 1 or 2 mana because of Tabernacle or Ghostly Prison and that's the point where Orb can really help by being cheaper and easier to force through than Armageddon (or in reverse: playing turn 1 Orb makes Ghostly Prison and Magus must-counter in a lot of situations).
It does usually get boarded out against Thresh to bring in the usual suspects however lately I'm not that impressed by Chalice anymore. Mainly this is because the only relevant card it hits at X=1 is Nimble Mongoose and at X=2 it is too easy to run into Daze or see the Tarmogoyf entering play before you get it down. Perhaps I'm a bit biased here but in my testing the games I lose I get run over by Goyf, Enforcer or Dragon regardless of Chalice at 1.
"Anybody want some . . . toast?" —Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
As for karmic justice.. Ill test it really well... As I am in love with prison decks and no one brings stax to our metagame.
Nice report, it seems that we really do have bad match ups with land still and loam.
I have never played against landstill or loam with stax, Is our match up really that bad?
@winter orb
I have been playing winter orb in my casual prison deck for a long time.. And I still believe that winter orb only belongs in the sideboard. It only really helps against control and is only good when you have magus/tabernacle or ghostly prison in play against aggro. As you said it also does backfire at times. Although if you do have 6 geddons like the the other lists. It could be an option.. But I still love chalice, and would not take it out at all from the main. Chalice helps against more decks in my area.
@powder keg
I know keg is slower than EE. How did it go for you? was it too slow?
I often find myself looking for more answers in this deck.. specially against aggro decks at times you wont draw into Ghostly prisons or EE and magus comes in too late... Its usually a race.Or a question of who plays first( since I am a very unlucky person, I always lose the die roll)..if I get to lock him first its usually game over or he gets to overwhelm me first..(but again this is because I test mostly against goblins) I still see as ghostly prison one of the best agrro hoser in this deck.
EE and kegs are more versatile as they can hit anything from enchantments to artifacts, tokens and at sometimes early lackeys as well. How many cards does this actually answer? I often find myself wishing I had something else in my hand.
Generally against Loam the matchup is not that bad especially against slower variants. Chalice at 2 handles their deck quite well but as I already said I mulliganed to 4 in game 2 (not finding any land in a deck with 24 manasources is tech) and there was not much I could do.
The hardest part in the Landstill matchup is surviving Pernicious Deed, closely followed by getting a Ravages of War/Armageddon/Winter Orb through their Counterwall and Meddling Mages. I'd have won the last game against a recurring Disk if we hadn't gone to time because I had all the things I needed to force through Armageddon and win from there but I couldn't draw any of the Geddons before extraturns so it didn't matter.
I made mistakes in the previous match against the 3c Landstill and forgot about Meddling Mage during boarding for game 2. However my opponent also played well so I guess I'd have lost anyway.
Concerning Winter Orb, yes it was a metagame decision and it paid off more or less (lots of control and other manahungry decks in the meta). With the direction the metagame takes here I think I'll keep the Orbs for now but I will keep a close look at how they perform in further testing and tournaments.
Personally I prefer Powder Keg over EE for 3 reasons. 1) It'll get more than 1 counter more reliably than EE. I want to kill Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant and the occasional Crucible of Worlds more than I want to kill a Mongoose or random other 1cc critter. Relying on a Mox Diamond to be able to hit 2cc stuff is really annoying at times. 2) It kills Manlands. Not much to say here except that we had atleast 5 decks using Manlands yesterday in a field of 14 players. 3) It can be played blindly first turn. Without Chalice I'm lacking some solid frst turn plays and Powder Keg is nice here. Imagine the following scenario with EE: you: Ancient Tomb, go; opp: Trop, Mongoose, go; you: Plains, EE@1, activate now or during his turn. Now with Keg: you: Tomb, Keg, go; opp: Trop, Mongoose, go; you: Plains, Trinisphere, activate Keg for 1 now or during his turn.
Obviously you don't need to activate Keg or Explosives right there but no matter how you play it if you don't want to blindly set EE at 1 during your first turn it will eventually tie up your mana in a subsequent turn.
Of course this is all moot once we get to play with Oblivion Ring as that card is far better in the current metagame. Keg and Explosives are still good handling EtW and Bridge tokens but I'd say we'll find them in the sideboard more often than maindeck post Lorwyn.
"Anybody want some . . . toast?" —Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
Silverdragon, Have you tried any additional artifact mana to help out with Winter Orb? I really liked it along with either Coalition Relic or Thran Dynamo when I tested it. It made more Armageddon effects easier to handle, and the deck didn't rely as much on Crucible of Worlds.
Sphere of Resistance is good versus most of the 'fast' combo decks if you are looking for something other than Chalice.
As for the Karmic Justice discussion - I hated it when I have tested it. This deck has so many options for proactive play, that Justice is wasted space. It will not improve any of Stax's bad match-ups which is what you really need your sideboard to do.
Fred Bear...
Don't Trinisphere help versus those 'fast' combo decks already?
Also, about those mana artifacts, when exactly do you want to play them? If you play them early, you kind wasted a turn. If you play them later, you don't need the mana, really.
Trinisphere is good against fast combo, if you draw it and get a chance to play it. I offered Sphere of Resistance as a sideboard alternative to Chalice of the Void. I'm not suggesting replacing 3-sphere, just adding another knock-out effect against combo (just like Chalice would be). I've found Sphere of Resistance to be good against control decks and frankly most of the current meta which runs on a very tight mana-curve. Brainstorm for 1U isn't nearly as good, especially when it doesn't leave them the 1 needed to Daze.
The mana-artifacts are awkward and require a very different build, but with Winter Orb, I found they are much better (since they continue to untap under the Orb). They are by no means a 4-of inclusion, but I found that 2 Coalition Relics or 2 Thran Dynamos almost act like extra Crucible of Worlds and allowed me to go up to 6 Armageddon effects without suffering much at all.
Setting up the board is what Stax does in the early game. I wouldn't call playing a mana-artifact early a wasted turn anymore than I would call a turn 3 Trinisphere a waste - you are working on setting up inevitability - not necessarily a fast process. There are a lot of games where I've found the deck struggles without a Crucible in play. A turn 1-2 Artifact accelerant, especially in a build using Winter Orb, could really exploit that tempo advantage.
Fred Bear...
Anyone else trying with black? It gives access to vindicate, braids, and leyline of the void (sb) at the very least. I've been having pretty good luck with it.
I've been asking that HERE for two days, with no feedback for now... =/
While Vindicate is nice and all. Splashing Black just for this doesn't seem to be worth it.
Why Braids? Not only does it cost B, it cost double B, which makes it really hard to bring it out. Also, it is a creature, and many decks have more ways to get rid of creatures than artifacts. Not to mention the fact it is just bad with Magus of the Tabernacle out.
Trying to cast Leyline of the Void is just too hard for this deck. Besides, Ghostly Prisons, Trinispheres, and Chalices can hold back most graveyard based strategies. (Ichriod, Cephalid Breakfast) Supression Field can also be used to stop things like Survival and Life of the Loam control.
As for stuff like Eternal Garden and stuff like that... I guess you can just use Tormod Crypt or Phyrexian Furnace.
Besides, Mulligan decisions are pretty hard for Stax already. (To me it is) Adding Leyline of the Void just makes it even more harder.
I think these stuff was mentioned earlier before though.
Braids: Yes, he is a creature that can be swords'd or lightning bolted, but he can also attack. I don't run angels in my verions and sometimes I just need that extra damage. Also, Braids makes them sac right after I cast him. No waiting a turn to put a counter on it. Besides, you have chalice on 1 for a reason. I've just found it much better at getting a quick lock. A turn 2 Braids has given me a sofl lock a lot more often than a turn 2 smokestack. I know you can't ramp her up to anything higher than one a turn, but I still think it might have a place.
Leyline: Yes, it can be a bit hard to cast with the color requirements. But I am using scrublands and a couple godless shrines to even out my colors. I find that sometimes Ghostly Prisons, Trinispheres, and Chalices just can't do the job alone. Besides, some decks just say gg when you play it. Besides, its really fun to have against landstill and other stax decks.
Besides, up till about a week ago I was also running 4 sinkholes with the deck in place of Chalices, and then usually sb'ing them out after the first game.
Hey guys,
Just thought I'd try to get everyone back in the mood again. For those of you who play in Speyer, you must have seen Harald David's 3rd place finish with stax.
Here's the list for reference:
Angel Staxx
by Harald David
# Event: Legacy Turnier in Speyer - Oktober 2007
# Date: 20.10.2007
# Place: 3rd
# Participants: 22
3 Exalted Angel
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Suppression Field
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere
3 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
2 Horizon Canopy
7 Plains
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Wasteland
Sideboard:
4 Jötun Grunt
2 Pulse of the Fields
3 Disenchant
3 Pithing Needle
3 Rule of Law
Not sure if he metagamed at all, but some of his card choices differ quite a bit from the norm. I'd like to just outline a few cards that have been shirking widely-accepted play, go ahead and throw your input on each one:
Exalted Angel - is the beats and can sometime win games out of nowhere due to our ability to produce large amounts of mana very quickly. Coupled with some cheap lock pieces, she easily gets there without much resistance. Is she worth running? Harald definitely thought so, putting her as a solid 3-of.
Suppression Field - Everyone knows that it's deadly in several matchups, but nobody ever maindecks it. Being able to stop anything from Aether Vial to Fetchlands seems like a pretty good deal. Is it worth putting MD?
Cutting down on Stax? - This isn't the first list I've seen with less than 4 smokestacks. In my experience, I always want to see this card, and rarely do I ever regret getting doubles in my hand. Might have been cut for more metagame cards, but this has become a semi-new trend. Comments?
God's Eye, Gate to the Reikai - Is good for stax food and post-geddon. I haven't tested it yet, but running a copy or two might not hurt the deck. Paired with the Crucible/Stax lock, you can go ahead and set your stax to 2 counters without breaking a sweat. Worth running?
Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale - Other than being ridiculously hard to find for a decent price, the card seems like a very efficient early answer to creatures. Because of this, David was able to drop one Magus of the Tabernacle. Not producing mana is a slight problem; I probably wouldn't run more than one because it's a legend. Worth running?
Horizon Canopy - Seems like a very smart inclusion in the deck. It produces white and cantrips - meaning it'll be infinite cantrips with crucible out. The deck seems to go into a very painful topdeck mode at times, maybe this is what we needed to shore that problem. Worth running?
NO Mishra's Factory! - Seems like the card was never amazing to begin with in this deck. It was good for infinite chump blocking and whatnot or a slow win condition, but is it as necessary as people deem it is? Being able to stuff Lackey must be nice tho.
The board is pretty much self-explanatory other than the inclusion of Pulse of the Fields. I've never actually played with the card outside of Mirrodin standard, but is that something we really need? It looks like David already has a very solid anti-aggro plan and the WW casting cost may be a hinderance at times. Lastly, what's everyone's stance on Pithing Needle?
Hopefully we can get more discussion going, don't let white stax die!
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