[OLD] UGr Threshold

[Waikiki]

what sb cards would you prefer over the needles then? They seem to fix alot of random problems for me.

[goobafish]

Either more Predators or Pyroclasms.

[thedarkness]

Wow, it's been a while since I've posted here... x.x

Anyway, I'll start by saying that this is for a tournament that starts in about an hour, and I'm expecting a LOT of Dragon Stompy. That being said, here's the list I'm planning to run in this tournament as of now:

Lands
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island

Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Pithing Needle
4 Ponder
4 Fire/Ice

Sideboard
SB: 3 Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Hydroblast
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Blue Elemental Blast


Now, I realize that some of the cards in the maindeck and sideboard may be questionable for the Stompy matchup, and maindecked needles may seem a bit odd, but there's logic to each choice.

First off, this is obviously a very aggro build, but 8 burn spells and 12 creatures, but I think that will be an important and necessary part of today's tournament. Suffice it to say, most of the people where I play use aggro of some sort or belcher or other random decks, while the better players frequently use either landstill, stax or thresh.

The shell of this build is from David Caplan's (spelling?) GenCon 2007 top 8 list, and with some help from a few friends, I think it has been fairly well improved. Now for the card choices that may seems a bit odd.

4 Stifle and 4 Wasteland: Mana denial will probably be a very important factor in this awful metagame, and Stifle hits the random belcher decks too, if they somehow resolve a belcher or hit the mana for an ETW.

12 threats and 8 burn spells: I need to be able to race random rogue decks as well as established aggro and combo decks, as well as take out things like Magus of the Moon.

Maindeck Pithing Needles: With the exception of 2 Krosan Grips in the board, this deck curves out at 2, Force of Will excluded. This deck does NOT want to be staring down Countertop. Ever. It also stops a lot of other cards, such as Eternal Dragon in Rifter, which is fairly common here, Deed in Landstill and some other decks, Survival, etc, etc.

3 EE and 4 Pyroclasms sideboard: as I see it, Dredge is an awfully painful matchup, but not entirely unwinnable. If I counter their Dread Return, I will usually, or at least fairly often, have one turn to destroy the zombies. The reason for 4 Pyroclasms and 3 EE is simple: Pyroclasm can't be Needled, and also takes out Magus of the Moon in a pinch.

2 Ancient Grudge and 2 Krosan Grip sideboard: Grudge is better against Stax variants, and Grip stops Countertop, since they won't likely keep a 3cc on top against a deck that curves out at 2.

Blue Blasts over Red Blasts: Dragon Stompy scares me. What else is there to say?


To me, the list looks pretty solid, but I'm here for opinions and/or suggestions, if anyone has any. Thanks in advance!


Edit: so far, I'm 4-2 games, 2-0 matches. I lost both game 1's, but basically dominated games 2 and 3. I was paired against Belcher round 1, lost to a bad hand against an unknown deck (no counters, didn't mulligan), and he made 12 gobs on turn 1. Games 2 and 3 I boarded in 11 cards and drew a total of 16 of 38 potential answers to his deck between games 2 and 3. Round 2, I was paired against burn, lost game 1 to a total lack of blue spells for my Force, but won games 2 and 3 thanks to boarding in blue Blasts.

[raharu]

How were the DragonStompy matches? Your Maindeck looks bretty good against them, with 12 ways to answer Magus and counters for Blood Moon (although few other answers for the latter), although I question A) the Wastelands, and B) the complete lack of basics.

[Adan]

Though I said I won't post again here:

I placed 4th at out local monthly event. We were 37 participants, playing 6 rounds of swiss.

I played David "goobafish" Caplan's maindeck and modified the Sideboard to make it better for our meta.

// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [B] Volcanic Island
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [AP] Fire/Ice
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [PS] Rushing River
1 [TSP] Wipe Away

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [NE] Submerge
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [DIS] Trygon Predator

Trygon Predator was the most boarded card yesterday since our meta was infested with Chalice Aggro, Stax and Affinity.
Submerge is a cool tempocard against the mirrormatch. And Needles are supposed to be good against Landstill and Survival. Whatever.

So, here are my matches:

Match 1 - One of the Ball brothers with Affinity

g1: I somehow have manaproblems and he has got Engineered Explosives set on to. That holds back my 2 Tarmogoyf in my hand and I don't have a 3rd mana to play Goyf with Stifle-backup. I think I played it like a retard. In a bad situation, he double-Thoughtcasts, overextends and smashes me.

I boarded in 3 Predators and 2 Krosan grips. I think I boarded out Stifles, some Spell Snares and Ponders...

g2: He is somehow manascrewed and just goes Citadel, Worker, go.
I manage to get a 3rd turn Predator. He plays Ornithopter. In my turn, I Bolt Ornithopter, Waste his Vault of Whispers, attack with Predator, destroy his Worker, leaving his Citadel as his only permenent. He scoops immediately.

g3: I don't have predator, but some acceptable amount of counters, burn and cantrips, which find me 3 (!!) Goyfs. I start beating him with 2 of them because I was afraid of EE. Since he was colorscrewed and knocking on his deck everytime he draws a card, I was confident that I could Spell Snare his EE. He topdecks a black mana and plays Perish T_T.
But never mind, the 3rd Goyf in my hand comes in and then I win.

1-0-0

Match 2: Andreas Pisch with... GW Elves.

g1: I had to mull to 5 because I had a hand with a single Wasteland as land twice. I lost that one since he overextended too fast and played Oblivion Ring for my Goyf.

Stifles out for Pyroclasms and Predators for some additonal manpower.

g2: This time I had a regular draw and he the crappy draw. I screwed him with Fire/Ice onto his Elves, Wasteland for his lands and then I Brainstorm-Ponder-bla into 3 Mongeese which do their job very quickly together with Lightning Bolt.

g3: Just like game 2, but this time there were 2 Goyfs instead of Mongeese.

2-0-0

Match 3 - Clemens "Der_imaginäre_Freund" Wolff with UWb Cunning Landstill

I was prepared for a 2-0 loss. We knew what each other plays and so I also knew that he will smash my face in since I also know his deck's possibilities and flexibility. He also plays a up-to-date version with Tolaria West and Humility.
No chance. His deck did what it was supposed to do and I lose 2-0.

2-1-0

Never mind, I can still go 5-1-0

4th Match - Harald Herrlich with 3color Vialgoblins.

My favourite trashtalker-opponent.

g1: I see the true power of the manadenial-element. I manage to get the goddraw, screwing him, deliver early Goyfbeatz and dazing everything dangerous. WOW!

Out: 4 Spell Snare, 1 Ponder In: 3 Clasms, 2 Needles.

g2: This time my draw was worse and his better. I don't have Lightnign Bolt for Wort and he smashes me with double-Warchief, Gangbanger and Piledriver.
And this time he screwed ME.

g3: He relies on his single Aether Vial. I waste-stifle all of his lands and manage to Bolt Wort which comes in through Vial. After that I have some time to draw-go for critters or at least cantrips to find some critters.
Since he didn't draw anything except Goblins but no lands, I eventually won that game with Mongo-Beatz and burn to the dome.

3-1-0

5th Match - Mirko Bretz with Angel Staxxx

Stupid matchup.

g1: It's quite balanced, but when I tried to overrun him, he plays Ghostly Prison which I can't counter because of 3Sphere. Then he has got Waste-Lock and I say: "Aw, c'mon! game two!" Those 3 Spell Snares which stuck in my hand...

So out came 4 Spell Snares and 4 Stifles, and In came 2 EE, 3 Predators and 3 Grips. H8 ftw!

g2: I have a predator in my hand, Daze and FoW. KEEEEEEP!
He has got a slow start with Plains, go. 3rd turn I drop Trygon Predator.
He laughs because he thought I made a joke when I said I play him. And he thought it was a bad random creature, just like I did at the beginning. After he read the oracle text, you could see the big confusion in his face. After destroying some Ghostly Prisons, 3Spheres and Crucibles: "What the fuck? What shall I do against that fucker? O.o" "g3?" "Hm, yeah".

g3: Similar to game 2, but he mulled to 5. The Trygon predator came later in the mid-game where he recovered from his bad opening hand. But then I drop it and begin to make pressure. I wrecked a crucible and he plays Oblivion Ring.
Fine, EOT: Krosan Grip. "GG"

4-1-0

The last game I IDed with Fabian Moyschewitz because we both didn't want to play anymore. Though I knew he plays Deadguy which I could completely rape with Spell Snares, Burn, Dazes, Stifle against Wasteland and so on... I thought: "OK, then no one will kick out the other from the T8" when he offered me a draw.

4-1-1

When I looked at the standings, I should be 5th, but then I ended up 4th because of a better Opp-Score, taking a foil Apocalypse Pernicious Deed.
I traded it against a normal Pernicious Deed and a signed Bloodstained Mire so I can continue to work on my new 5color Highlander.

So, special thanks to David "goobafish" Caplan for his list.

Sometimes I could not manage the concept since I always want to play 1st Turn Ponder or Mongoose instead of Land-Go just to save my landdrop from Wasteland or Stifle a fetch. Sometimes I'm also in some situations where it's just like in the old days where I played UR Landstill: You can handle EVERYTHING, but then you run out of gas because you can't apply any pressure because the threat-density is smaller and that build generates less CQ than...my NQGw /w CB-Engine and predict for example.

But I wanted to try something new and in the end it played quite smooth. And one more T8 appearance without Counterbalance, just to disprove your statement "lists without CB suck".

edit: 2 feed the Landstill thread: Clemens Wolff won the tournament 5-0-1 with UWb Cunning Landstill /w Humility and Tolaria West (techy card!).

[goobafish]

Congrats on doing so well with it,

I have also found that at the last event when predators were added, I very often sided them in, as they are amazing in so many matchups. I am not a fan of needles through.

Sometimes I could not manage the concept since I always want to play 1st Turn Ponder or Mongoose instead of Land-Go just to save my landdrop from Wasteland or Stifle a fetch

This is a common problem with those who are picking up this list. You almost always save the landdrop for stifle if you have it, or spell snare if you are playing second. You want to drop the goose if you know you are playing against goblins.

So, special thanks to David "goobafish" Caplan for his list.

Hope you enjoyed.

[kicks_422]

I've always advocated running Predators as the 3rd creature. Nice to see a handful of people seeing how good it is.

[Shugyosha]

But I wanted to try something new and in the end it played quite smooth. And one more T8 appearance without Counterbalance, just to disprove your statement "lists without CB suck".

True.
A team mate and me played the same list at a local tourney, too. I lost two mirrors in which a combination of landscrew, landflood killed me along other things and went just 2-2 but my friend went 4-0. Regardless of my problems with the list we both found it very powerful.
Although we both missed the 9-10 creature from time to time.

[MeddlingMage001]

I like your list, Adan.

@ Goobafish and Adan: The one-off Rushing River and Wipe Away look a little random to me. Are they really needed? Were they good during your games?

I think they only serve to bounce a CB, Moat or to break a Stalemate, right?

[goobafish]

Those are the main reasons, along with:
Deed, Humilty (which is now popular), Confinement, Tombstalkers, Shackles, Jitte, SoFI, Sea Drake and saving your own creatures.

They are reset buttons and game winners.

[Adan]

Those are the main reasons, along with:
Deed, Humilty (which is now popular), Confinement, Tombstalkers, Shackles, Jitte, SoFI, Sea Drake and saving your own creatures.

They are reset buttons and game winners.

Yeah, those are enough reasons to play them. I first played Repeal because it doesn't produce disadvantage for some speed, but it's very manaintensive.
So I just ended up netdecking the list as it was.

[raharu]

Could Temporal Spring be a good option as a "tempo" card? It serves the same purpose as what's run in those slots right now, but better because it eats thier next topdeck as well and still dodges Counterbalance. Thoughts?

[luka66_6]

Could Temporal Spring be a good option as a "tempo" card?

It is sorcery soo i think it is noot god in red *****.

[kicks_422]

The Split Second of Wipe Away or the versatility of Rushing River far outweigh the Lapse effect of Temporal Spring, IMO. If you're using it on Counterbalance, your opponent's deck most probably has some way to recover after that.

BTW, has anyone been having problems with running only 18 lands, with 4 of them Wastelands? Isn't that a bit too low? I think it's safer to run 20...

EDIT: And another question, in reference to Adan's list a few posts above... In your report, you boarded out the Spell Snares almost every game. Will you still keep them MD? If you'll be dropping them, what would you replace them with?

[goobafish]

BTW, has anyone been having problems with running only 18 lands, with 4 of them Wastelands? Isn't that a bit too low? I think it's safer to run 20...

This is a common question and is answered simply by the fact that the deck is MADE to run on 1-2 lands. If you get mana heavy hands, the lands are useless. and as such you want to prevent this as much as possible.

Spell snares are very rarely sided out. It seems that some places in the report where snares were sided out that they should not have been. It says they were sided out for the Affinity Matchup (they counter ravager and cranial plating) and for the Angel Stax matchup, where it is absolutely key to counter chalice at 1.

Against goblins is one of the the only places where you side them out, and you leave them in when playing against the new Tarmo-gobbo lists.

[Whit3 Ghost]

where it is absolutely key to counter chalice at 2.

You mean Chalice at one, correct?
Also, my report from the Running GAGG, where I made top8 with David Caplan's UGr Thrash list can be found here:
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8492

[goobafish]

Yep, my bad, will edit that.

[Citrus-God]

The Hatfields and Calosso played Moon Thresh, which I think is pretty cool.

// Lands 17
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
3 Island


// Creatures 11
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Fledgling Dragon


// Spells 32
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Portent
3 Predict
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
2 Blood Moon
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt


// Sideboard 15
1 Counterbalance
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Blood Moon
2 Krosan Grip
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyroclasm


The decklist looks better than ever and still has the standard arsenal. Blood Moon is a bomb in the metagame right now. With all the Magus of the Moon running around, adjusting the mana base to it wouldnt hurt. 3rd Dragon is just essential now with the Moon effects.

Has lot's of 5th effects (Portent, Magus), which is good, since it maximixes the potential for better odds. The 5th Portent is awesome. This card is a must. The 5th Moon seems kinda cool.

REB is probably a good card right now. It's probably better than Grip in the mirror. It counters CB and helps win counter wars. They're also good against Landstill because they're extra counters to help resolve bombs like Moon. REB is also the nuts against Breakfast.

Congratz to Alix Hatfield (ObFreely) for the great finish.

[luka66_6]

I really like this "new" ***** with blood moons. It is the way to go at the moment I belive specially with dragon stompy on the rise.

how about adding Taurean Maulers in deck?

[fetchesbasiclands]

how about adding Taurean Maulers in deck?

I really don't believe they are any good here.Counterbalance stops your opponents from playing spells,so does Moon.So they're kinda anti-synergistic with Mauler and besides,what would you cut?Dragon flies and beats for 5-10 while you could not even consider cutting Goyf or Mongoose for Mauler.one card I would like to add in the board is Trygon Predator,but it's manacost can be tough under a Moon.