[Deck] Eva Green - B/g suicide

[kikkofrio]

I have been playing this deck sporadically, but I wonder if there is anything that could be added to the sideboard to help in burn matchup. Jitte itself does not seem enough, especially since Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker are the only creatures you are likely to keep on the table.

hidden gibbons

[nitewolf9]

If you wana stomp burn play a single scrubland in the main and board in gerrard's verdicts. I do not recommend this though unless burn is like 30 percent of your meta. Man, that would be pretty funny though.

[SuckerPunch]

Anyone saying that the white splash for Vindicate (over Seal) isn't worth it because Vindicate usually is used on the same things that Seal is used on, honestly doesn't have a clue what they are talking about.

Let me tell you, splashing white into this deck and playing Vindicate is absolutely broken.

Seriously, far more than blowing up enchantments/artifacts, I usually use Vindicate to take out lands.

Combined with Wasteland and Sinkhole, Vindicate makes the deck completely rips your opponent's manabases a new one.

Not to mention that Vindicate is great against opposing Tarmogoyfs and Tombstalkers too.

So consider my post a very hearty endorsement of splashing white into the deck to play Vindicate MD and Gerrard's Verdict/Hidden Gibbons in the board.

Do it, seriously. It's the next natural evolution of the deck.

Here is my list (I ripped it off another list someone posted here, and it's been fantastic)...

Eva 2.0

4 tarmogoyf
4 hypnotic specter
4 tombstalker
3 nantuko shade

4 dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
3 snuff out
3 vindicate
2 reanimate

4 wasteland
4 polluted delta
4 bloodstained mire
3 bayou
3 scrubland
3 swamp

On that same note, has anyone tried out the random one of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth he suggested. It seems like a great way to let you use Wastelands to play second turn Sinkhole/Hymn/Shades more often.

[Shawon]

Hey, aren't you one of the guys who argued for Tarmogoyf being BANNED in Legacy over at Star City Games?

[Jaiminho]

I always see people running Reanimate instead of more threats or more removal and I never get it. Since Reanimate will usually bring back a creature that went down in combat, you could run more removal so that your own creature won't leave the red zone in the first place. The other option is to actually run more creatures to compensate for the loss of a threat, nullifying the argument Reanimate might have against discard, since it will count as a threat because it in, in fact, a threat. In the case of SuckerPunch's list, why not up Nantuko Shade and Snuff Out to 4 and down Reanimate to 0?

And I'm aware it does bring enemy creatures back, but it simply doesn't matter, since if an opposing threat has gone down, it doesn't outclass the one that killed it, so your board position is still favorable.

[SuckerPunch]

Play Reanimate, and then get back to me.

You act like you never see a game where your opponent resolves their Goyf and you kill it (Snuff Out, Vindicate, Thoughtseize take your pick).

If your Goyfs die in combat, then yes, you do Reanimate him, but that's not the only point.

More often than not, Reanimate reanimates your opponents Goyfs and other broken threats from their deck.

But perhaps more imporantly, Thoughtseize puts your opponents best creature into their yard, 9 times out of 10. Getting it on your side for just one black mana and two life (three for Sea Drake, four for Rakdos Pit Dragon) is a fantastic investment.

I wouldn't play Shade over Reanimate for the following reason.

Tarmogoyf >>>> Shade
Reanimate = Goyf #5-6.

Shade, Snuff Out and Tombstalker are three cards that I HATE HATE HATE seeing multiples off the same game. The second shade is a 2/1, the second Snuff Out usually bring your lifetotal way too low, and the second Tombstalker is just straight up unplayable. Of those three, I left Tombstalker as a 4 of because I absolutely wanted to see one every single game. Snuff Out wasn't important since Vindicate and Thoughtseize do the same thing. And Shade wasn't important as Goyf just straight up outclasses it.

[Jak]

I always see people running Reanimate instead of more threats or more removal and I never get it. Since Reanimate will usually bring back a creature that went down in combat, you could run more removal so that your own creature won't leave the red zone in the first place. The other option is to actually run more creatures to compensate for the loss of a threat, nullifying the argument Reanimate might have against discard, since it will count as a threat because it in, in fact, a threat. In the case of SuckerPunch's list, why not up Nantuko Shade and Snuff Out to 4 and down Reanimate to 0?

And I'm aware it does bring enemy creatures back, but it simply doesn't matter, since if an opposing threat has gone down, it doesn't outclass the one that killed it, so your board position is still favorable.

I agree with most of this, but you also have Thoughtseize, Snuff Out, and Vindicate to take out creatures. Hitting a Goyf or Stalker and then putting it on your side is actually good and may actually pull you out of unfavorable board positions.

I don't think a list should or shouldn't have reanimate but it isn't bad all the time.

[SuckerPunch]

Do you think I would be better off cutting a Scrubland for an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.

Not having to sac (and lose life to) fetchlands is nice.

Not getting colorscrewed by drawing two of your own Wastelands is awesome.

[Valtrix]

Yeah, scrubland would probably make the most sense for one urborg. You're just cutting a non-basic for another, so that wouldn't matter much, and urborg can generally help out your games a little bit.

Also, I think that reanimate is a good choice. It seems like you'd lose a lot of life with snuff out/thoughtseize/reanimate, but you should hopefully be racing them to begin with. I can't see the 2-of hurting you all that much more. Also Jak, hitting a stalker with reanimate might not be the best play unless you can afford 8 life =P

[yankeedave]

Hey Ya'll

I have FINALLY got my playset of 'Goyfs, so would love to be reminded of the diffenative list for this deck! I have looked back through and see several posts all containing decklists, but they vary widely. Some play Jitte maindeck, some run Smother, others play Snuff Out. Some play Grip MD and some Seal of Primordium. And can we resolve the Reanimate question? It seems like a strong play, with all the discard!

Can someone (Nitewolf9 ) maybe tell me the VERY best list of the moment? Thanks!

Yankee

[kidsmokin]

Hey Ya'll

I have FINALLY got my playset of 'Goyfs, so would love to be reminded of the diffenative list for this deck! I have looked back through and see several posts all containing decklists, but they vary widely. Some play Jitte maindeck, some run Smother, others play Snuff Out. Some play Grip MD and some Seal of Primordium. And can we resolve the Reanimate question? It seems like a strong play, with all the discard!

Can someone (Nitewolf9 ) maybe tell me the VERY best list of the moment? Thanks!

Yankee

The list in the opening post is still the definitive build.

[SuckerPunch]

Can someone maybe tell me the VERY best list of the moment? Thanks!

I've played this deck for a while and this is the very best list imho.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...&postcount=403

But if you want to keep it simple, the opening list is solid too.

[nitewolf9]

The opening list is essentially the optimum build, although I've been trying pithing needle over seal and have been liking it. Anwar and I are also revamping the board because the current one was pretty much based directly on the board for Masque of the Red Death, a deck that existed in a completely different environment. I do think engineered plague is still very good, and I will continue to use it in the board. Leyline of the void is also very strong and another spot that I believe to be set in stone. So that leaves 7 other slots to play with. With needle main I think grip in the board might be extremely useful against many decks, although I do not think grip belongs in the main deck. Additional graveyard hate might also be needed if you plan on beating ichroid at all.

I am not really a fan of splashing a third color in this deck as I think vindicate is unnecessary and not worth what you sacrifice with your mana base. But you could also give that a shot as I haven't really tested it.

[Galroth]

I thought I'd add my weight behind SuckerPunch. I also think the addition of Vindicate is the next evolution of this deck, and unlike Nitewolf I feel the splash for the third color does warrant the slight additional strain on the manabase.

However, I am not convinced that Reanimate should be included. Like Jaiminho I'd like to see the 2x Reanimate cut and an additional Snuff Out and Nantuko Shade included. Even though you don't want to see doubles of these in your opening hand, you do always want to see atleast one copy of them (particularly Snuff Out) in your opening hand.

[nitewolf9]

I tell you guys what, I'll actually test vindicate and get back to you with an educated opinion as opposed to a guess, and I'll hold judgement until then. I don't want to stifle any new ideas that could be good. There is a concentration of very good legacy players around here so I think the information will be useful.

Edit: On second thought, I probably won't be testing it. My unhealthy obsession with vindicate must not be a factor in playing it. I still think it probably isn't very good in this particular deck simply because it costs too much to do too little. I'll take the chance of someone making me eat my words with a good showing in a big tourney with the white splash build.

[Deep6er]

Vindicate costs too much for something that doesn't do enough. Seriously, think about it. The only way you don't lose tempo on a Vindicate is by destroying something that costs more mana. It's very rare to destroy something more than three mana in Legacy. It's clunky, and unwieldy. Plus, why bastardize your manabase? Your matchup against Dragon Stompy is actually pretty decent, but weakening it in this manner (for something that isn't even very good) will weaken that matchup.

You don't want cards that are slow in a deck that's based around tempo. All it does is weaken your core strategy and contort the deck into something it's not.

[SuckerPunch]

You can argue that you don't think splashing another color is worth it, that's fine. But arguing that Vindicate costs you tempo more often than Seal doesn't make any sense at all.

Vindicate gains you tempo. Blowing up your opponents second land after you just Sinkholed or Wasted his first one is a very very strong tempo boost.

It's usually enough to mana screw your opponent and set them back by several turns.

Blowing up your opponents Tarmogoyf/Tombstalker/Dreadnought is a very strong play as well.

I don't know about you guys, but there have been many games where I had Seal in my hand, or on the board, and no targets for it. Lots of decks don't play any artifacts/enchantments and those that do often play so few that they don't see them half the games they play.

Seal is a dead card quite a lot. That costs you tempo. Vindicate is never dead and always blows up lands.

I used to be unhappy to see a Seal about half the time that I drew it. I'm almost always happy to draw a Vindicate. I am probably going to up the count to 4 in fact.

[Tenant_Tron]

If we are going to use the last 3 spots of the deck, and potentially a 4th, on Vindicate, I think it would make a lot of sense to also try playing STP, perhaps in the slot of Snuff Out. I think this would make it a different deck though, basically DeadGoyf Ale, but it seems like the direction this discussion is going in.

T.T

[Deep6er]

No, Vindicate costs you tempo because you could have played a creature to capitalize on the gains after a Sinkhole/Wasteland instead of hoping that they don't have any more lands in their hand. All you did was trade a turn of yours for a turn of theirs. Nothing happened.

Dan's been playing Pithing Needle over Seal for awhile now. I think the card is stellar and have been a big fan of it since testing has shown that it significantly shores up the Survival matchup. Plus, Needle is hardly dead because using it proactively to shut off Wastelands supplements the mana denial strategy.

They are your cards dude, but playing sub-optimally is what we are trying to avoid here.

[kidsmokin]

The issue with Vindicate is thus:
1. Splashing the 3rd color weakens the manabase, as Deep6er has noted. While in many matchups this isn't much of an issue, it does increase your vulnerability to waste and Moon-hate. One
2. I don't see Vindicate as a particularly proactive card. You wait until something appears on the table that's worth Vindicating, or you just use it on a land. You're either paying for a bad Sinkhole or a bad Snuff Out. While there's versatility I think you're usually better off doing other things like backing your hombres up with discard, leaving them with less answers to your guys. Or just dropping another Goyf or Tombstalker. Problems for them are already aplenty.
3. Vindicate is a sorcery. It's not even that it's not an instant (well, it would be borked if it was, but I'll touch on this in a bit).

Things about Seal that make it preferable:
1. No 3rd color. Getting Green cut off somehow (possible via Moon, etc.) really only invalidates a total of 10 cards (counting the 3 Bayous, 4 Goyf, 3 Seal). With the 3rd color you lose 13 (3 Bayou, 4 Goyf, 3 Vindicate, 3 Sinkhole), while seemingly small it could make the difference between a game won or lost.
2. Seal is proactive. Fire and forget. Putting it on the table can change the game state, forcing the opponent to play around it, meaning that they're really wasting time trying to find answers, allowing you to go ahead with your game plan. 90% of decks pack artifacts or enchantments of some sort, so I don't see how Seal could ever possibly be dead 50%.
3. Seal is an enchantment. Nothing around to hit? So what? Sac it so Goyf gets +1/+1, or sac it so you get 1 off your Tombstalker. Vindicate still helps with regards to the Tombstalker, but subtly Seal provides additional Goyf-beef. With Vindicate if you have nothing to hit, it sits in your hand doing nothing, and the worst thing for this deck is for it to hold stuff in its hand.

My 2cents on the Vindicate question, mostly off the top of my head.