My point of naming Top, actually, was to stop the CB+Top lock, which disables StP (though confessedly, I have to admit that in these builds, CB Top hardly stops anything else (perhaps except sometimes when we want to use discard to remove their counters)-- Although without StP we cannot deal with Enforcer), and the Pithing Needles let me Pith any stray Vedalken Shackles, which win against us instantly. This allows us to save our Vindicates for other threats, and also give us more answers than their threats, increasing redundancy against FoW and the like.
But I can see the purpose of boarding in EE against Mongeese and such, that's very tempting. Gives Goyf +1/+1, though (and against Tempo Thresh, can be Stifled).
Originally Posted by GreenOne
You are missing the point. Of course Arena is the better draw engine - it costs more Mana (that is a huge difference like Sinkhole to Rancid Earth or Hymn to Stupor, I am giving that example so that no "only one Mana" answers come) and cannot deal damage to the opponent.
Arena and fast creatures / Rituals does not fit into one deck so you play expansive creatures and no Shades and no Rituals. Now compare Confidant and Arena from the point that you play them and don't have them.
If you play the Confidant build and don't get a Confidant to stick, then you still play a decent suicide deck with Ritual into Hymn/Sinkhole disruption backed up by Seize, Wasteland and Vindicate with quick finishers like Tombstalker and Nantuko Shade.
But if you play the control version with Arena and all those expansive creatures don't get an Arena onto the table then you play a bad control deck that will randomly draw creature removal, LD or discard.
Another problem of Arena versions is that you will have problems to fulfill the control role against many decks. You have no real answer to burn decks burning you out (they'll kill Exalted when morphed), you can't play a long game against Goblins, a resolved Survival will usually beat a resolved Arena and fighting the long game against Landstill will also play into their hands.
Wait... why would adding Arena immediately transform it into a control deck?
What I've been looking to test (no time recently) is replacing the 6-8 slots used by Bob/Top with 4 Arena and using the extra 2-4 slots freed up to go up to 4 Tombstalkers and putting in some bigger threats (Shriekmaw, which pulls double duty, or Nyxathid, or Exalted Angel, etc), rather than counting on 2/1's and 2/2's. The shell of the deck - mana accel to fuel disruption and threats, backed up by a draw engine to restock on said disruption and threats - would still largely be the same.
since today is prerelease i think it should be ok to discuss a card from conflux.
i was thinking about Nyxathid as my main threat.
to make him strong i was thinking about 12 - 16 discard spells.
Seize, Hymn and Verdict as 4 ofs and perhaps even Hyppie.
if i dont play Hyppie i could play the Grunt who would be good with all the discard spells i play anyway.
my main deck would look like this:
Creatures 10
4x Dark Confidant
3x Nyxathid
3x Hypnotic Specter / 3x Jötun Grunt
Spells 28
4x Dark Ritual
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Gerrard's Verdict
4x Vindicate
Land 22
6x Swamp
2x Plains
4x Scrubland
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Windswept Heath
4x Wasteland
Sideboard 15
4x Engineered Plague
4x Jötun Grunt / 1x Jötun Grunt
3x Pithing Needle
4x ??? / 7x ???
atm i think i like the version with Grunt better. but that would mean i got 15 spells with white mana needed. hope that wont be a problem. on the other hand that leaves me with 7 more sideboard options. and i got really no idea what else to play. Warmth could be a good card in my meta cause there is always one or two burn decks around.
any other good ideas on the sideboard ? and what do you think about the deck and especially about Nyx?
edit: one more thing. do you think 2 Plains and 2 Windswept Heath too much?
edit2: oh and what do you think about Path to Exile? since many decks dont run that many basic lands it could be a nice addition to Swords. i am still torn if it could be a good fit for the deck.
Last edited by Reaver027; 01-31-2009 at 07:40 PM.
With Nyxatide or whatever, I would certainly play 4 Hyppies. I predict that you won't want to see the former without the latter active.
The real question is why you're considering playing that over this.
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If it's all in our heads, it's best that we don't loose them.
i am a little afraid of too high casting costs with Bob on the table.
thats why i dont play the Stalker in the first place and relied mostly on Shade.
and Nyx just gets bigger and got the possibility to kill a big Goyf. and finally i think Nihilith would get online too late most of the time.
i know Nyx is dangerous. but with 12 discard spells, 8 of them that get rid of 2 cards, and the mentality of legacy to empty your hand down to 2 pretty fast he could be a star.
he needs testing that is for sure.
Hello altogether, I'm new at this board and I'm from Europe so please excuse if my english is not as well as it should be ;-)
I'd like to show you my version of Deadguy Ale, it plays 4 Grunts main because it uses many discard options and we've got lots of Goyfs here. At the moment, I'm searching for Vindicate, so you won't find them in the list. My alternative is the Oblivion Rings in the SB.
Please tell me, what I should change:
Mainboard:
4x Jotun Grunt
3x Nantuko Shade
3x Hypnotic Specter
4x Dark Confidant
4x Duress (No Thoughtseize at the moment)
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
4x Dark Ritual
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Gerrard's Verdict
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scrubland
4x Caves of Koilos
4x Swamp
Sideboard:
4x Spectral Lynx (Hello Mr. Goyf hrhr)
4x Oblivion Ring (my "Vindicate light")
4x Engineered Plague (vs. Gobbo, Faerie, whatever...)
3x Seal of Cleansing (vs. Mono-U-Control Shackles, BtB)
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Welcome fellow european.
Seeing as you don't have Vindicates, you could consider dropping your land-destruction plan, and go for the new guy Nyaxitid or whats his name. Maybe insert some´Diabolic Edicts or something. Other than that, it looks good. What would you side Oblivion Ring in for? Is it not something, that Engineered Explosive could do better?
Edit: Oh yea, exchange your Caves of Koilos' for more fetches.
Oh, i like the Sinkholes. The Goyf Decks usw many nonbasic lands, so I try to "cut" one opponents color completely by using wastelands and sinkholes.
The Oblivion Rings might be the Edicts you want me to add, I like the effect, that my opponent MUST use another card from his hand to destroy the oblivion ring. and most decks don't run enchantment removal in their main deck, so when I board the rings in the second round (normally for the verdicts) I have a nice advantage.
Explosives are nice, but 2 should be the most useful number of counters in legacy, but then i kill my creatures too. 3 isn't possible atm because of the mana base. and 1? what is it good for..? I don't think that they're a good decision for this deck.
more fetchies are possible.
Nyaxitid sounds nice but what should i cut? And imo he is hard incalculable.
edit:
Alternate plan for edicts: Smother.
smother kills nearly everything: goyf, tog, grunt, confi, whatever.
I've also thought to cut the rings for smother.
at least it is a meta game question, if i play verdicts or smother/ oblivion ring main
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and thats why i want to playtest nyxathid. he could be so good but het can also end up so bad.
but with the right discard outlet (for me i will try seize, verdict hymn) he could really shine. as much i would like to run hyppie over verdicts in my current meta hyppie dies far to easy. and verdict try forces them to discard no land cand. and with the ld back up plan (wasteland, vindicate, sinkhole) i can punish them even more.
sure this is just playing with the deck in my mind but it sounds just too good. and grunts are always a good backup choice to beat someone down.
well i got one more question. can anyone tell me what the right amout of mana and fetchlands is ?
atm i play 22 lands and 6 fetches. would it be a good idea to increase the amout of fetches to 10 and just cut 4 swamps ?
edit: oh and while i am at it. anyone got a few ideas for my last sideboard slot ?
atm i am playing :
4x Engineered Plague (gobbos and that kind of stuff)
1x Jötun Grunt (more graveyard hate)
3x Pithing Needle (vs all kind of nasty tricky stuff especially lands)
3x Warmth (at least one red burn deck in my area i tend to get paired against it all the time)
4x ??? (any ideas for this slot? got 2 chains of mephistophiles here but they never really worked for me)
4x Spectral Lynx?
So in the end the choice could be -3x Hyppie & + 3x Nyxathid?
Another interesting creature is Oona's Prowler. Also perfect with the mass discard strategy. Maybe these two creatures could be combined?
10 Fetchies seem to be too much. Atm I play 4 and the Deck runs good, sometimes screwed, sometimes too many lands. But at all, its good. Maybe I test 6 or 8 Fetchies in the future.
edit/
When you say, the Hyppie dies fast... Oona's Prowler has only 1 strength. But only 1B. What do you think about that?
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oona's prowler is a great card imho.
but iam not sure it has a place in a lagacy deck. hyppie is just so much better.
well i say hyppie dies fast because it will either be counterd or dealt with within 1 turn. sure it draws them a counter or a removal and perhaps even discards a card but i think that i could get better results with vedict,
i was playing without verdict, with only 2 grunts main, 4 hyppies and 3 shades. i just want to test something different.
nyxathid replaced shade as the main beater and i added 1 more grunt to abuse the discard theme a bit more. its really just a test build. but i am i got no time to test cause of exams.
good thing about nyxathid is that it doges counter balance better than shade.
perhaps i will even put back in the hyppies for the grunts and move them to the board. only testing can tell. but i really want nyxathid to work cause i want him to be good :D perhaps i am alittle obsessed with it atm. it he turn out to be bad... well i can go back to shade or try something else.
oh and i think that 6 fetches is minimum. i run 2 hights to be able to fetch a basic plains. comes in handy from time to time :D
edit: what about orim's chant in the sb to improve the combo matchup a little. i know it delays them only a turn but that could be enough to draw that discard spell and make them discard their engine or win con.
I think that a build with approx. 12 discard (7-8 2for1's) has a great combo-matchup as it is, and the sideboard should really focus on other stuff.
Its gonna be fun to see how builds with heavy discard, and finishers like Nyaxatid, Grunt and Tombstalker will fare. Certainly potent. Rituals should probably be included.
Rituals are already part of my deck.
In the end the Nyaxatid doesn't convince me, normally he shouldn't be greater than a Grunt and I'd prefer at the moment the Shades.
What do you think about that board:
3x Spectral Lynx
3x Seal of Cleansing (I think, they're very good)
3x Oblivion Ring
3x Smother
3x Engineered Plague
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Just an FYI guys, the card you're referring to is called Nyxathid.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
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Thx for your correction Skeggi. I think, now I've found my perfect "no-Vindicate-but-Mortify-Version":
4x Jötun Grunt
3x Nantuko Shade
3x Hypnotic Specter
4x Dark Confidant
4x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
4x Dark Ritual
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Mortify
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland
4x Polluted Delta
2x Bloodstained Mire
1x Godless Shrine
4x Scrubland
6x Swamp
SB:
4x Spectral Lynx
4x Gerrard's Verdict
4x Oblivion Ring
3x Engineered Plague
Last edited by Squee_6; 02-12-2009 at 05:28 AM.
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Why do you want to play a no-Vindicate-but-Mortify-Version? Not destroying lands and artifacts (read Crucible) kind of sucks, right?
(sorry if you have already explained that...)
Exchange mortify for vindicate and u will have a good tempo peckage (waste, sinks & vindicate).
Ans sry about this question, but why did u opt for duress instead of seize?
Ty
Mortify Choice:
Atm I don't have Vindicates because they are hard to get/ imo too expensive to buy. So I had to find an alternative. Mortify seemed to be good, it's even an Instant (OK, this is not a real advantage for Deadguy Ale, normally I use all my mana during MY turn...).
I know about the problem, that I can't target artifacts and lands... I try to trade Vindicates but thats not easy at the moment.
Duress Choice:
Deadguy Ale has got a kind of suicide style and I think Confidant and the damage from the opponent is enough, its hard to handle all the life loss in combination with Thoughtseize.
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You can Mortify Mistbind Cliques in your upkeep! Yay!
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
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