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Thread: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

  1. #281

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    There's no way obosh is the direction shadow is going. show us wins in stream/YouTube if you think otherwise. this deck is a combo killer hedging into free and cheap interaction plus a fast clock. it was said earlier that it has essentially the lowest mean cmc and it got results earlier for that reason which means that deviating is just moving to a worse version or a different deck. save any grind for the board.

    Concerning snoko what do y'all think of a mb 2 berserk, sb sylvan library/abrupt decay deck? still hedging the cheap cmc configuration as stated. also what is your threat configuration at this point? especially if youre excluding delver what is the replacement? maybe goyf in green but that's 2 cmc

  2. #282
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    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Not much of a deck left if you cut Delver as they never replaced DRS with a generically playable black 1-drop. Look at the amount of duals in the deck and understand that aggressive mana base without getting ahead on board early to discourage retaliatory on-the-draw Wasteland from opponent is a bad place to be.

    Higher risk to rely on off-core (non-UB) openers like Hexdrinker or Reclaimer (or the mana dudes, who alongside Shadow isnít a great combo), since theyíre much slower, and Shadow doesnít really work with any lands-based effects all that well (for Reclaimer). When it comes to playing as hard as possible into Ice-Fang/Strix/Snapcaster, few creatures can compete with the failure rate of Goyf and Goose.

    The best conventional list with BUG would look something like:
    4x BS
    4x FoW
    4x Daze
    4x Ponder
    4x Thoughtseize (20 slots)

    2x FoN
    2x Decay
    2x Berserk
    2x Library
    4x Delver
    4x Shadow
    2x Gurmag (18 slots)

    1x Bayou
    1x Trop
    1x Sea
    1x shock-Trop
    2x shock-Sea
    8x Fetch
    4x Wasteland (18 slots)

    Pick your last 4 slots, but know that 4x Wraith locks you into mid & late game irrelevance (also it antagonizes Library) and going for PWs or Bobs or Bitterblossoms have their own issues (namely further undermining Daze as game goes longer on back of green use). At no point will anything youíre suggesting change the fact that youíll be playing sorc-speed summoning sick threats into an Oko, but Library will help against Plow (as long as Wraiths arenít contaminating that strategy).

  3. #283

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Ya I didn't think cutting the delvers was great but the previous comments were suggesting the cut which confused me. My thoughts towards the green splash was to definitely stay as close to the u/b base as possible with just 2 berserk (taking a lesson from modern's femur battle rage) and maybe a couple decay but dismember in that slot still seems great. Then post board adapt into the flexibility of library (which I learned to love combatting StP playing Marit lages) and the decays. Any other green cards that work towards this idea?
    Excellent response thank you.

  4. #284
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    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Really quickly on the history of Shadow, it was a legacy deck before a modern one, and also before Battle Rage was printed. Itís important to escape the modern mindset and recognize that Berserk is just as important as a removal spell that ramps down life total. This style of approaching the life loss engine as a constantly shifting puzzle is the key to playing green; itís not about linearly losing all the life you can, just for the sake of losing life.

    The best thing you could probably do with the last four slots are Oko full of Bitterblossom [no Wraith], even if they antagonize the Daze plan. The SB cards green gives you are Return to Nature, Leovold, Veil, Trophy (not more Decay, these ones disrupt lands), and potentially Carpet. As far as the maindeck goes, you donít really want to go above 4 green cards (Library and Berserk 2-ofs), but you probably lose more than you gain by skipping the 2x Decay. Point there being that there are no more green cards youíd want in the maindeck until DRS (or something really similar) returns.

    A really good way to assess cards is asking yourself if they replace what Probe and DRS did: consistency, optional life loss, turn 1 threat, mana security, life gain, anti-GY. If this doesnít make sense, I would suggest sleeving up the banned version and playing informal games as this will tell you the why these are the priorities of current construction.

    Hereís something close enough to classic [as a non-Stifle build]:
    4x BS
    4x Ponder
    4x Probe
    4x Daze
    4x FoW
    4x Seize (24)

    4x Delver
    4x Shadow
    4x DRS
    1x Gurmag (13) [option to make another cut, potentially down to 16 lands to get #2]

    2x Library
    2x Decay
    2x Berserk (6)

    3x Wasteland
    8x Fetch
    3/3 split duals and shock duals (17)

  5. #285

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Delver is terrible in this deck. It really is and this is no exaggeration. In all my games with this deck I've very rarely ever won on the back of Delvers. The best it does is absorb Plows for Shadows, which it will only do as long as your opponent blindly Plows the first thing they see without knowing the matchup well enough, and pitch to Force. It has no synergy with Shadow whatsoever. When Shadow is good, Delver is almost never needed to win. When Shadow is bad, Delver won't carry you on its own in a deck that does everything to maximize Shadow and nothing to maximize Delver.

    In this deck Delver is a million times worse than Shadow and Angler. And when compared to other Delver decks it is a million times worse in Shadow than it is in decks with 5 Bolts, Pyromancers, Arcanists and maindeck Borrowers as well as more instants/sorceries in general thanks to Street Wraith. It's outclassed in everything it tries to do in this deck. We don't have DRS or any other obvious replacement available to us, but that doesn't mean that Delver is the next best thing to fill those last 4 slots. I'm still experimenting with different things in those slots and most of them have been better than Delver already.


    I do like the idea to play green for Berzerk and I've been testing it a decent amount, though ultimately I've always found it to look better than it actually plays out in practise. In theory Berzerk looks like a hybrid between a pseudo-Dismember and a one-shot kill through problematic blockers, which is incredible. However, it's very unreliable at either of those jobs. As a removal spell it's much better on defense than on offense... and Shadow is inherently a deck that will be the aggressor in all matchups where creature removal spells are needed, because we're basically unable to play defense due to our auto-lifeloss. And if you're trying to use it as a one-shot kill you have to ask yourselves in what matchups that's even good. Against combo you don't need it, you'd rather stick with a solid UB mana base and take that one extra turn to kill them after you've disrupted them. The real reason to play Berzerk is against Strik/Coatl/TNN and last time I checked all the decks playing those also have 4 Plows (in addition to Decays in most cases), which make Berzerk really bad.

    I still think the idea is viable, but you have to deal with the fact that your deck loses a good amount of consistency in its primary gameplan. Looking at Fox's list above it's apparent that it's impossible to accomodate all the lands you'd want to have in the deck, for instance. In terms of colors you probably want exactly one UG and one BG land, but that makes it impossible to play both as both a regular and a shock dual. That would require 4 green sources minimum, which is plain terrible in a Hymn + Daze deck. The best you can do is probably 9 fetch, 1 usea, 2 grave plus either Tropical plus Overgrown Tomb or Breeding Pool plus Bayou.

    I'm also worried about the lack of life loss in that list given that Wraith is not a part of the deck. Berzerk is at its best if you actually one-shot them through a 1 thoughness blocker with it, so you need enough control over your life points. No Dismember/Snuff and no Wraith is questionable at least. I do realize that those cards are often bad mid to late game, but honestly if you decide to register Death's Shadows you just deal with that. You'd rather draw risky or even dead cards in the lategame sometimes than not maximize the one thing that gives your deck a niche in the metagame, which is play large threats for one mana as early as possible.

  6. #286
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    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    What cards are you trying out instead of Delver? This deck is built on pure efficiency, playing 5/5's, 9/9's, and sometimes 3/4's (reanimate Street Wraith) for one black mana. Delver is the next best efficient threat in these colors that you can play to provide early pressure. You can't play Shadow or Gurmag t1, so you need something to get the ball rolling besides a Thoughtseize or cantrip. You need to be killing them faster than you kill yourself or the deck just flops. Cutting delver would likely be the worst thing you could possibly do, in my humble opinion.

    Regarding Berserk and a green splash: I've wanted to try it, but it doesn't reliably do what you want. Your removal ends up being less efficient (Decay instead of Push/Dismember/Snuff Out) and your 1-2 Berserks are rarely seen in most games. Sylvan Library is amazing but again not as efficient as a couple more cantrips like Preordain. I think the correct splash color, if there is one, is red for Lightning Bolts. It provides removal to clear blockers and reach, making the deck more aggressive. I probably wouldn't play Temur Battle Rage over something much more useful like Abrade or Pyroblast. You don't need a 'combo' to race other combo decks, you're already favored with Thoughtseize/Daze/Force of Will/Force of Negation/sideboard Hymns. I tried playing Stifle-Dreadnought with this deck, cutting Delvers. It ended up being worse due to being weaker to opposing blue-stew decks and being about the same against the combo decks, so no gain while also having additional 'bad' cards like Stifle. It ended up being a net loss in function.

    One thing I've been curious to try is to play a full set of Brazen Borrower instead of Delver. It isn't as efficient but adds a ton of utility, especially against Planeswalkers and Chalice of the Void. Being at instant speed lets you keep up interaction and still play it out as a threat EOT. It hits as hard as Delver, has the same evasion, it's just not as good as Delver on-curve.
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  7. #287

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    What cards are you trying out instead of Delver? This deck is built on pure efficiency, playing 5/5's, 9/9's, and sometimes 3/4's (reanimate Street Wraith) for one black mana. Delver is the next best efficient threat in these colors that you can play to provide early pressure. You can't play Shadow or Gurmag t1, so you need something to get the ball rolling besides a Thoughtseize or cantrip. You need to be killing them faster than you kill yourself or the deck just flops. Cutting delver would likely be the worst thing you could possibly do, in my humble opinion.

    Regarding Berserk and a green splash: I've wanted to try it, but it doesn't reliably do what you want. Your removal ends up being less efficient (Decay instead of Push/Dismember/Snuff Out) and your 1-2 Berserks are rarely seen in most games. Sylvan Library is amazing but again not as efficient as a couple more cantrips like Preordain. I think the correct splash color, if there is one, is red for Lightning Bolts. It provides removal to clear blockers and reach, making the deck more aggressive. I probably wouldn't play Temur Battle Rage over something much more useful like Abrade or Pyroblast. You don't need a 'combo' to race other combo decks, you're already favored with Thoughtseize/Daze/Force of Will/Force of Negation/sideboard Hymns. I tried playing Stifle-Dreadnought with this deck, cutting Delvers. It ended up being worse due to being weaker to opposing blue-stew decks and being about the same against the combo decks, so no gain while also having additional 'bad' cards like Stifle. It ended up being a net loss in function.

    One thing I've been curious to try is to play a full set of Brazen Borrower instead of Delver. It isn't as efficient but adds a ton of utility, especially against Planeswalkers and Chalice of the Void. Being at instant speed lets you keep up interaction and still play it out as a threat EOT. It hits as hard as Delver, has the same evasion, it's just not as good as Delver on-curve.
    I like borrower as an idea. It is a pretty tempo-y card, and has good synergy with Thoughtseize.

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  8. #288

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    First let me state that I really like Delver in this deck. The point is to get them dead, and I really like that early Delver makes early Daze / Wasteland / Thoughtseize better just by existing. I agree that it almost never wins the game as a threat, but I almost always find myself trading early cards favorably only to drop Big Boy threats turns 3-4 and winning from there. So I wouldn't cut it.

    That said, for a while I did consider Preordain over it directly and going to 12 cantrips. Ponder and Preordain are basically everything you want to be doing in the first 3 turns:

    - fueling Angler delve
    - finding cards that lower your life total for Shadow
    - finding cards that protect your Angler / Shadow
    - finding sideboard cards to answer specific issues
    - still pitches to Forces

    This is also a lot of what Ben Friedman was trying to do with flippy Jace except it digs better for less mana and is harder to trade with for value.

    I also don't like the random 3 drops of Nemesis / Borrower / Clique. 3 Mana takes forever in this deck. By the time I have 3 on the board I want to be doing like Thoughtseize into 2x 6/6 Shadow. Honestly I would rather start testing Gargoyle before playing a 3 drop. Or a 3rd Angler.

    Disclaimer* I also cut the 2x Force of Negation and 2x Reanimate for a full set of Hymn. So my Delver is slightly weaker than the stock list since I can't rebuy them. Delver might be better with Reanimate but I think that card is a brick too often to justify playing it. But Gargoyle might be better after Hymn.

  9. #289

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus View Post
    First let me state that I really like Delver in this deck. The point is to get them dead, and I really like that early Delver makes early Daze / Wasteland / Thoughtseize better just by existing. I agree that it almost never wins the game as a threat, but I almost always find myself trading early cards favorably only to drop Big Boy threats turns 3-4 and winning from there. So I wouldn't cut it.

    That said, for a while I did consider Preordain over it directly and going to 12 cantrips. Ponder and Preordain are basically everything you want to be doing in the first 3 turns:

    - fueling Angler delve
    - finding cards that lower your life total for Shadow
    - finding cards that protect your Angler / Shadow
    - finding sideboard cards to answer specific issues
    - still pitches to Forces

    This is also a lot of what Ben Friedman was trying to do with flippy Jace except it digs better for less mana and is harder to trade with for value.

    I also don't like the random 3 drops of Nemesis / Borrower / Clique. 3 Mana takes forever in this deck. By the time I have 3 on the board I want to be doing like Thoughtseize into 2x 6/6 Shadow. Honestly I would rather start testing Gargoyle before playing a 3 drop. Or a 3rd Angler.

    Disclaimer* I also cut the 2x Force of Negation and 2x Reanimate for a full set of Hymn. So my Delver is slightly weaker than the stock list since I can't rebuy them. Delver might be better with Reanimate but I think that card is a brick too often to justify playing it. But Gargoyle might be better after Hymn.
    Flippy jace was played because it's card advantage, you can't really compare it to preordain.
    I kind of agree about 3drops (at least in the maindeck) borrower might be ok because it at least does something at 2 mana.
    Delver is very rarely a reanimate target anyway so I don't think that's much of a consideration.

    Overall one thing I dislike about the positioning of this deck in the metagame right now is the prevailing UGWx control decks have shifted to black instead of red, which means they have Decays as a clean answer to Liliana, but the popularity of snow in general seems to have diminished a bit and RUG now seems to be the most played deck, so maybe it's possible to make it work.
    Snuff Out is a card I feel could be particularly good at the moment (pretty solid vs Arcanist / Goyf / Mandrills / GoblinLackeyEtc and not many black creatures in the meta right now)

  10. #290
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    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    You guys really ought to get away from play summoning sick dude [after turn 1] -> pass. The high mana, value dudes (Whale/JVP) that fall into this category aren't doing you any favors vs Oko either. It's fine to be dedicated to the archetype, but I think chasing the next turn 1 black 1-drop to pair with Delver (Thieves' Guild Enforcer, which combos decently with Drown) is probably going to be a more successful venture.

    RUG Delver is easier to beat for you than Grixis Delver before the bans, but in general you don't want to run into Delver + Bolt decks. You're not doing yourselves any favors by mirroring the slowing down that's going on in those already unfavorable matchups (especially since your comeback tools are worse ~ Pyroblast'able). Get back into the paint with 8x 1-drops (or move to UB Standstill or Dreadstill). Also you know people are getting their value from Dreadhorde, use Cling to Dust.

  11. #291

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    You guys really ought to get away from play summoning sick dude [after turn 1] -> pass. The high mana, value dudes (Whale/JVP) that fall into this category aren't doing you any favors vs Oko either. It's fine to be dedicated to the archetype, but I think chasing the next turn 1 black 1-drop to pair with Delver (Thieves' Guild Enforcer, which combos decently with Drown) is probably going to be a more successful venture.

    RUG Delver is easier to beat for you than Grixis Delver before the bans, but in general you don't want to run into Delver + Bolt decks. You're not doing yourselves any favors by mirroring the slowing down that's going on in those already unfavorable matchups (especially since your comeback tools are worse ~ Pyroblast'able). Get back into the paint with 8x 1-drops (or move to UB Standstill or Dreadstill). Also you know people are getting their value from Dreadhorde, use Cling to Dust.
    If it was so bad to play a threat on turn 2-onwards then you need to explain (preferably in 100 words or less, I know this is difficult for you) why goyf/arcanist are so successful.
    If somebody just wants to play UB Delver then I think maybe the Thieves Guild Enforcer is a better pairing with Delver than Shadow, but Shadow still has upsides.
    I don't know what "comeback tools" you are referring to but I try to choose cards for that role that are monoblack specifically to dodge pyro.
    I think cling to dust is at least a very good SB card, possibly you can play it main as a value 1-of as well

  12. #292
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    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Most of legacy seems to have this morose fascination with chasing down Thing in the Ice by another name (JVP, Whale, Vantress, Pteramander, Stormwind elemental prowess guy). If you know TITI wasnít going to do the trick, you could extend that logic to these flashes in the pan. These are the Pyroblastíables, and slinging them into actual Delver (or worse, Snapcaster) has predictable outcomes - but they also all lose to Oko as a function of being cast in main phases with summoning sickness.

    Now Goyf is by far the worst card in RUG Delver, but they canít escape their very own Tarmoabyss which [barring a broken PW] condemns them to their inescapable 2012 irrelevance - they have to run it precisely because they canít beat it. Arcanist works b/c, unlike the Pyroblastíables, itís generally harder to kill and requires so much less work to reliably get out of control on the next turn. More important still, the very next play is the most broken card in the format: Oko...which notably doesnít die to Snapcaster -> recur the spell they killed Arcanist with. Oko [with the superimposed banning of Lurrus] is, by multiple degrees of magnitude, the most important factor letting RUG near top tables right now. Without Oko, RUG Delver is a bad joke [even after the free boost from DRS ban] that can barely get on board turn 1, and can hardly afford to fire off Wasteland by turn 2. Sure Arcanist is good and all, but heís just a dude they had to tap out of permission for.

    You really donít want to push up your cmcs and emulate them, because itíll be a worse knockoff (in the same way that Blade decks are a worse knockoff of 4c SnowOko). Itís a catch 22 though, b/c youíll generally play into Veil if you go black. Itís a bad spot to be, but youíve got room on the low end to be about the only Delver deck stocking 8x 1-drop threats (of the turn 1 variety) - this is your creative space. You also happen to have a B instant that beats Veil, undermines known hostile value engines, and generates value in the process [Cling].

  13. #293

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    So... maybe this is a bad interpretation, but are you saying that it's best to simply avoid anything with summoning sickness and/or a pyroblast target? Maybe I missed out on the nuance somehow?

    If so then I *partially* agree with the idea. Like on one hand it feels pretty bad to have your 2 drop fatal pushed, but on the other hand as kiwi pointed out, those cards can still be really good.

    I kind of like this deck though specifically because everything costs 1 (Delver / Shadow / Angler) so at least it's a little harder for the opponent than say Goyf on 2. Sure you can Daze my turn 1 Delver but I'm usually pretty happy with that exchange.

    Side note, and maybe this is a hot take, but I'm just not all that worried about 3 CMC sorc speed cards from my opponent most of the time. I usually find that this deck has enough pressure to keep those cards off the table long enough to win.

  14. #294
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    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus View Post
    Side note, and maybe this is a hot take, but I'm just not all that worried about 3 CMC sorc speed cards from my opponent most of the time. I usually find that this deck has enough pressure to keep those cards off the table long enough to win.
    So hereís the thing about not playing real Delver structure (8x 1-drop, 4x 2-drop/Shadow, 2x payoff), you have to tap down into their turn 3, putting you on exactly Daze and/or hemorrhaging cards with FoW/FoN into hostile Daze. Stifle isnít in your deck anymore, so you canít go around passing turns vs Wasteland (or just giving them time to establish mana to permanently play around Daze). Thoughtseize can help somewhat providing intermezzo, but it also a card youíre trimming postboard, unless theyíre playing Stifle against you.

    As cool as discard is, itís also going to heavily incentivize opponents into making consistently aggressive plays to avoid trading important pieces with said discard. If something actually gets through, like say an Oko, your board isnít going to be equipped to handle him. If instead itís a Dreadhorde that gets through, youíve got this hostile card that can barely ramp down your life down to 9 (4/4 Shadow vs Bolt deck) through the attack step, while they go nuts on CA. These arenít exactly fights you can win by mimicking their slower cmcs - youíre payoffs arenít going to be as strong...also, they arenít under credible threat from your Delver.

    Now most Delver pilots will foolishly engage resources too soon to fight a [largely meaningless] Delver on principle, which is a significant source of winrate for Shadow...but itís generally fair to say that this stream runs dry at top tables, where pilots know how to treat life like a resource. Playing leagues on MTGO isnít going to deterministically hurtle you towards competent Delver + Bolt players, as the matchmaking values speed of pairing alongside of calibre of record.

  15. #295

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Played this at a small local
    2-0 vs Jund Phoenix
    1-2 vs Hogaak (Kept a seven on the play in g3 with 3 wraiths daze shadow no lands and bricked, have about a 60% chance to hit a coloured land turn 1 in that spot and I probably could have won if I hit turn2 as well, but probably a bit greedy)
    1-2 vs Eldrazi Aggro

    4 Shadow
    4 Gargoyle
    4 Wraith

    4 Ponder
    4 Brainstorm
    1 Preordain
    4 Daze
    4 FoW
    2 Stub
    4 Seize
    4 Hymn
    1 Push
    1 Snuff
    1 Dismember

    4 Wasteland
    2 Sea
    4 Grave
    8 Fetchlands

    SB
    2 Liliana
    2 Triumph
    2 Engineer
    2 Bargain / Contract
    2 Ratchet Bomb
    2 FON
    2 Cling
    1 Mystic Sanctuary

    Notes:
    - Triumph is not ideal vs Eldrazi because it's not great into Matter Reshaper but I feel like that slot needs to be something applicable vs Depths and I think it's overall preferable to Tyrant's Scorn? Not sure though.
    - Cling was obviously slightly worse than e.g. Surgical against Hogaak but that's not the matchup I included it for.

    I think in future
    -1 Stub
    -1 Preordain
    +2 Baleful Strix
    (optional: swap the other stub for 1 of the SB FON then maybe cut stub from the 75 to open up 1 sb slot)

    I've been critical of the suggestion of Strix in the past, but I think it's a powerful card that synergizes with hymn grind plan, solves some issues that the deck has with stabilizing against fast threats, while not going overboard into playing more removal spells like push that are much worse against control/combo.

    SB still seems mostly ok but I want to get some more testing of the cling plan against fair decks

  16. #296

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Is Brazen Borrower still not universally accepted in this deck for it not being included in the primer?

  17. #297
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    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    I see 2 in the sideboard in most of the lists that make TCDecks.

  18. #298

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Ark4n seemed to be testing this deck a bit, he was playing 2 eliminates. Anyone else try that card for a clean oko answer?

  19. #299

    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Quote Originally Posted by jethstriker View Post
    Is Brazen Borrower still not universally accepted in this deck for it not being included in the primer?
    I would say that the "stock build" of the deck has 2 main. I wouldn't rely on primers much because they can become outdated pretty quickly:

    4 Delver
    4 Shadow
    2 Angler
    2 Borrower
    4 Wraith

    4 Seize
    4 FoW
    2 FoN
    4 Daze
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Removal (like 2 Push + 2 Snuff Out or whatever)

    4 Wasteland
    14 UB Sources


    I think eliminate is a good card, not sure if it fits into my overall sb plan atm but I think it's definitely worth considering

  20. #300
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    Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow

    Brazen Borrower has replaced Reanimate in the couple flex spots maindeck. It's just too versatile to be in your sideboard. My current build is exactly what kombatkiwi just posted. My removal suite is 2x Fatal Push, 1x Dismember, 1x Drown in the Loch. I've toyed around with -1 Gurmag, +1 Reanimate but it doesn't support the Stubborn Denials in my sideboard (which are quite good!)

    My current sideboard:
    2x Plague Engineer
    2x Ratchet Bomb
    2x Surgical Extraction
    1x Grafdigger's Cage
    1x Narset, Parter of Veils
    1x Liliana, the Last Hope
    2x Stubborn Denial
    2x Bitterblossom
    2x Hymn to Tourach


    You have 6 hard answers and 10 soft answers to Oko main: 6 forces and 10 Daze/Thoughtseize/Borrower. I like to board in Hymn/Stubs against Oko specifically, and usually much more against the control/midrange blue stews (Blossom, Narset, Last Hope.)
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