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Thread: Phyrexian Dreadnought and Vision Charm

  1. #1
    odabella's Avatar
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    Jul 2006

    Düsseldorf, Germany


    Phyrexian Dreadnought and Vision Charm

    When I use Vision Charm to phrase out Dreadnought when it just comes into play, do I need to sac my own creatures?

    Many members here are quite sure that I don't need to sacrifice (Look at the Dreadnought Affinity Thread):

    Ability goes on the stack, you vision charm the nought, charm resolves and nought phases, you chose the "sac dreadnought" option when it's ability resolves, and since dreadnought is no longer 'in play' you don't have to sacrifice anything.


    When Phyrexian Dreadnought comes into play, sacrifice it unless you sacrifice any number of creatures with total power 12 or greater.

    The 'default' option is to sacrifice the Dreadnought. You can't be forced to sacrifice 12 power worth of creatures.
    But only that 'Virtual Judge' on makes me feel unconfident about this issue:
    Q: If I play Phyrexian Dreadnought and then, while the triggered ability is on the stack, play Vision Charm, making Phyrexian Dreadnought phase out, what would happen with the triggered ability?

    A: It will still resolve, and you will have to sacrifice creatures with a combined power of 12 or greater if you have them, or at least sacrifice as much as possible. The fact that the Dreadnought is not in play does not matter, other than the fact that you will not, and cannot, sacrifice the Dreadnought, even if you cannot sacrifice enough creatures.
    Is there a part of the rules or an official statement I can refer to if I have to argue with a player or a judge?

    I would be happy if that could be clarified.

    Thanks in advance


  2. #2

    Join Date

    Oct 2006



    Re: Phyrexian Dreadnought and Vision Charm

    IIRC, when something phases in it doesnt trigger comes into play effects, so yeah you should be able to play Dreadnought, trigger on the stack, Vision Charm it, and then the trigger still happens, so you need to sac some stuff if you have it, but Dreadnought will come into play free of charge whenever stuff phases back in.

  3. #3
    Utterly ViLe
    Cait_Sith's Avatar
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    Sep 2006


    Re: Phyrexian Dreadnought and Vision Charm

    Nought's current wording:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gatherer
    When Phyrexian Dreadnought comes into play, sacrifice it unless you sacrifice any number of creatures with total power 12 or greater.
    Rulings from Gatherer:

    7/15/2007 If the Dreadnought is no longer in play when the triggered ability resolves, you may still choose either option.

    7/15/2007 If you choose the sacrifice option, you must be able to sacrifice 12 power worth of creatures.
    If you have 6 power worth of creatures when the ability resolves, then you MUST choose to sacrifice Dreadnought (which is clearly no longer the field and thus unable to be sacrificed).

    When Dread phases back in, the CiP ability does not trigger, and you have yourself a nice 12/12 trample ready to go.

    Edit: Bovinious, that is how it used to work. Now you only have to sacrifice 12 powers worth of creatures if you have them and you choose to.
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  4. #4

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    Feb 2004

    Clifton Park, NY


    Re: Phyrexian Dreadnought and Vision Charm

    Or, no offense guys, we can wait until Akki, Anusien, On1yone, or any of the other judges actually weigh in.

    No offense meant, as I know there are a lot of people on this site who know the rules quite well, but it'd be easier to wait for a judge that way we don't confuse the hell out of people if the rules interactions vary slightly from post to post from various respondents.
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  5. #5

    Re: Phyrexian Dreadnought and Vision Charm

    Cait_Sith is correct. The Star City ruling is outdated, like 75% of the rulings on Star City.
    “It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.
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  6. #6

    Re: Phyrexian Dreadnought and Vision Charm

    Please e-mail or PM me with any Ask the Judges you find on SCG that are inaccurate. Some people are going back through and fixing them so that this problem does not occur anymore.
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