Updated list found here.
CaNGD Contest – a German entry
Table of Contents
- Introduction
- Development
- The list
- Card Choices
- Matchup Analysis
- Tournament Report
- Possible Modifications
- Conclusion
1. An Introduction
When Anusien first leaked a new Thresh list he got from Zac Hill’s article Unprepared, I was fascinated by the fact that this has never been tried: Survival of the Fittest in a NQG shell.
At first sight, the idea might sound a little bit crazy because Gro tends to focus on running low land counts and functioning with little mana in contrast to the normal Survival decks which are most of the time packing at least 4 pieces of acceleration, but after a quick brainstorming and some testing I found the idea to be really great… you’ve just got another way of sealing the game on the second turn! Counterbalance and Dark Confidant will win you the game if left unchecked and so will Survival of the Fittest. The more you run of these, the more broken your openings will be which should increase about every matchup in Legacy. More brokenness in the most consistent shell can only be gold.
2. Development
For reference, here’s Zac Hills original list:
It was quite ingenious but some numbers and choices were seriously odd… 1 Spell Snare? Peek?Code:/// Maindeck (60 cards) // Lands 4 Flooded Strand 4 Polluted Delta 1 Wooded Foothills 4 Tropical Island 4 Underground Sea 1 Island // Permission 1 Spell Snare 4 Stifle 4 Daze 4 Force of Will // Removal 3 Ghastly Demise 1 Darkblast 1 Repeal // Cantrips 4 Brainstorm 3 Ponder 2 Peek 4 Thoughtseize // Card Advantage 3 Survival of the Fittest 1 Squee, Goblin Nabob 1 Wonder 2 Dark Confidant // Critters 4 Nimble Mongoose 4 Tarmogoyf /// Sideboard (15 cards) 1 Duress 1 Spell Snare 1 Dark Confidant 1 Threads of Disloyalty 4 Engineered Plague 2 Krosan Grip 1 Extirpate 1 Coffin Purge 2 Pithing Needle 1 Genesis
I also question the non-inclusion of one of the most broken engines in Legacy: CounterTop.
When Anusien asked him what the reason for this omission was, he answered:
I don’t share his point of view as CounterTop is in my opinion one of the reasons why NQG has even the hint of a chance against any control deck and is so strong at being the control deck in many matchups…Originally Posted by Zac Hill
Anusiens first list was more to my liking:
I started testing this exact list and found some weak spots:Code:/// Maindeck (60 cards) // Lands 1 Flooded Strand 4 Polluted Delta 3 Wooded Foothills 3 Tropical Island 4 Underground Sea 1 Forest 2 Island // Counters 4 Daze 4 Force of Will // Cantrips 4 Brainstorm 4 Ponder 3 Sensei's Divining Top // Scary turn 2 ‘I win the game if left unchecked’ plays 3 Counterbalance 2 Dark Confidant 4 Survival of the Fittest // Creatures 4 Nimble Mongoose 4 Tarmogoyf // Survival Men 1 Mulldrifter 1 Venser, Shaper Savant 1 Wonder 1 Squee, Goblin Nabob 1 Shriekmaw 1 Genesis
- I often didn’t have enough green mana to abuse Survival and had to stretch activations over multiple turns rendering Survival pretty un-broken
- I found the lack of removal really hard as an opposing Goyf would just stop your entire non-survival-powered agro
- I never really used Survival to search anything else than more Goyfs and the occasional Wonder or Genesis. A too big toolbox would dilute the deck and make more weak draws while only being of a very narrow advantage
I did some preliminary testing and some changes.
When Stefan Czolk (spiritofthewretch) and I asked ourselves what to develop for the CaNGD Contest, I proposed this deck.
2.1 The list
After a while of testing, this is what we had come up with:
2.2 Card ChoicesCode:/// Maindeck (60 cards) // Lands (18) 2 Windswept Heath 2 Wooded Foothills 4 Polluted Delta 2 Flooded Strand 3 Underground Sea 4 Tropical Island 1 Bayou // Beaters (8) 4 Nimble Mongoose 4 Tarmogoyf // Removal (4) 3 Ghastly Demise 1 Shriekmaw // Cantrips (10) 4 Brainstorm 3 Ponder 3 Sensei's Divining Top // Permission (8) 4 Force of Will 4 Daze // Scary turn 2 ‘I win the game if left unchecked’ plays (10) 3 Counterbalance 4 Survival of the Fittest 3 Dark Confidant // Survival Stuff (2) 1 Genesis 1 Squee, Goblin Nabob // Sideboard (15 cards) 2 Extirpate 1 Yixlid Jailer 4 Thoughtseize 1 Krosan Grip 1 Trygon Predator 4 Engineered Plague 1 Wonder 1 Counterbalance
- Mainboard
- The Manabase
- Tropical Island: The most important part of the manabase as you want access to blue mana in the early turns (Cantrips, Daze) but need immense quantities of green mana to get your Survival engine going
- Underground Sea: Access to blue and black mana but you’ll only rarely fetch more than one of these as a single black mana source is enough to function well and you’ll rather have more green mana in the mid-late game.
- Bayou: Having this as your only land in the start hand (and some cantrips) really sucks but as this occasion is rather rare and you always want to fetch green mana when you have landed a Survival, this is a fix include. It facilitates Shriekmaw and Confidant off Survival while still allowing you to get more green sources to operate even more efficiently under Survival.
- Flooded Strand: Shuffle effect for Brainstorm/SdT/Counterbalance, color stability… for the mere cost of a single life? Count me in! Even if some people might say that the life loss of the fetches and Dark Confidant might accumulate and be too much… this is simply not true as if you have a Confidant that draws you cards and an established mana base, you simply win, nothing else. Only included 2 because it can’t fetch Bayou.
- Polluted Delta: See above. Best fetchie in the deck as it fetches every single Dual.
- Wooded Foothills: See above. Included in larger quantities over Flooded Strand because you want access to as much green mana as possible.
- Windswept Heath: See above.
- Notable omission: We chose not to include any basic lands because this version is way more color hungry than other NQG versions… not being able to make 2 colors (green!) out of a single dual is really, really painful. Also, you can’t function well/at all under 3 basics which would be the number one would want to include.
- The Beaters
- Nimble Mongoose: The nightmare of every control deck… quite quick clock with shroud make it a staple since the old days in any NQG… no change here, this is still excellent. You do even survival it over more Tarmogoyfs in the control matchup which really shows its strength. Threshold is easily obtained with the cantrips (7) and fetchies (9) or via discarding useless stuff to Survival.
- Tarmogoyf: Mostly 4/5 as you don’t have an opportunity to mill an artifact or enchantment. Still good enough and an excellent answer to your opponent’s Goyfs.
- The Removal Suite
- Ghastly Demise: Played over Smother because of being cheaper. Can remove stuff which Smother can’t and vice-versa. A matter of preference.
- Shriekmaw: Awesome dude. Early on a Terror, in the late a finisher with evasion. Only one is played because he hurts in conjunction with Dark Confidant and costs 2 mana to evoke (Demise is cheaper).
- The Cantrips:
- Brainstorm: Easily one of the best cantrips available and pretty awesome with the plenty of shuffle effects of this deck.
- Ponder: Possibly the second best cantrip as it finds a land early on and digs up to 4 cards deep later. Supports the aggressive feel of this deck by drawing immediately.
- Sensei’s Divining Top: Needed for the Counterbalance lock. Strong on its own and even better with the many shuffle effects. Wins the mirror.
- Permission
- Daze: A staple in any agro-control deck that can afford the tempo loss. A shaky slot at first because of the Survival engine being very mana intensive but on the long run you really need this.
- Force of Will: 18 blue cards are enough to support this.
- Scary “turn 2: I win the game” plays
- Counterbalance: As the format gets faster and faster to react to combo, this gets better and better as you can abuse the lower mana curves and counter nearly every single spell. Even better in conjunction with Survival and Brainstorm as you can tutor something with a different converted mana cost from the usual (e.g. Squee for cmc3).
- Survival of the Fittest: The card advantage gained out of this is so devastating that most of the time, casting this is equals to casting a Door to Nothingness.
- Dark Confidant: See above. The average converted mana cost is 2.05 which is pretty high but still acceptable, even more so with all the library manipulation.
- Survival Stuff
- Squee, Goblin Nabob: Needed to gain card advantage via Survival. Played over Krovikan Horror because of not being so mana intensive.
- Genesis: Wins every control matchup and is awesome in the late game where this deck tends to loose the advantage. Also, notice the mad synergy ™ with Shriekmaw.
- Sideboard
- Extirpate: Comes in against Control, Engine based decks (e.g. Life from the Loam), Combo and Graveyard based decks (e.g. Cephalid Breakfast). Not bad in the mirror either.
- Yixlid Jailer: See above. Tutorable with Survival and a body but costs 2 mana.
- Thoughtseize: Comes in against Control to force your bombs through (Survival, Dark Confidant…) and against combo to disrupt.
- Krosan Grip: Comes in against anything with significant enchantments/artifacts (e.g. Stax, Survival, Landstill…) and for the mirror.
- Trygon Predator: See above. Tutorable with Survival, a body and re-usable. Overall nice, but easier to disrupt.
- Engineered Plague: Comes in against anything tribal (e.g. Goblins), Combo and Enchantress.
- Wonder: Comes in against anything with little weenies which stall the ground (e.g. Goblins)
- Counterbalance: Comes in against the mirror and Combo.
Last edited by diffy; 08-22-2008 at 09:03 AM. Reason: Updated Post: March 10th 08
2.2 Matchup Analysis
Disclaimer: These matchup percentages are actually based upon testing and not upon speculation. All the games have been played out with competent opponents (credited at the end of each matchup description).
- The Big Three/Four
- Goblins
- Preboard vs. Goblins
- On the play: 3:2
- On the draw: 2:3
- Postboard vs. Goblins
- On the play: 2:3
- On the draw: 3:2
-> Thanks to Harrald Herrlich (Locutus) for testing
The Goblins matchup with that first list was quite tricky as you really had to be the agro player from early on. You have a plethora of dead (Counterbalance) or way to slow (Survival of the Fittest, Sensei’s Divining Top, Genesis) cards but if you manage to counter/kill their acceleration and then have a Goyf and a Mongo or two, maybe also a Dark Confidant that draws you some cards while they search a Fanatic, the matchup is winnable. You just have to focus on the mid game before they reach 3 mana and on the period where they slowly try to establish board control and race them.
-3 Counterbalance
-3 Sensei’s Divining Top
-1 Genesis
+4 Engineered Plague
+1 Wonder
+2 Thoughtseize
Again you have to play very aggressively but you now also have a secondary goal of just digging for as many plagues as you can.
Conclusion: hard but very winnable matchup around 50-50 both Pre- and Postboard.- The EPIC Storm (TES)
- Preboard vs. TES
- On the play: 2:3
- On the draw: 4:1
- Postboard vs. TES
- On the play: 3:2
- On the draw: 5:0
-> Thanks to Harrald Herrlich (Locutus) and to Thomas (Yulyn) for testing
Now NQG is always regarded as a combo killer but I really have to say that this matchups is not all that easy especially not against the list we used for testing with 2 Red Elemental Blasts and 2 Draw4s main.
TES is very threat dense and you have to counter every single tutor/draw4 which is very exhausting over time. You can not count on a Counterbalance to resolve because of the red blasts and even if you get it down its still not an auto win as your opponent will then try to out-mana you. It gets even harder when they have an Empty the Warrens in hand.
-4 Survival of the Fittest
-1 Genesis
-1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
-1 Nimble Mongoose
-1 Shriekmaw
-3 Ghastly Demise
+1 Counterbalance
+2 Extirpate
+4 Thoughtseize
+4 Engineered Plague
Post board the matchup gets a little better as you now have more relevant cards and can focus on disrupting their Tendrils kill as you now have more outs to Empty the Warrens.
Conclusion: an even matchup preboard around 55-45 which gets a little better Postboard and then is around 60-40- UWb Landstill (feat. Cunning Wish, Humility)
- Preboard vs. Landstill
- On the play: 1:4
- On the draw: 2:3
- Postboard vs. Landstill
Not tested yet to a significant degree but improves very significantly as they don’t have a thing to board in while you gain access to Thoughtseize, Krosan Grip/Predator and Extirpate
-> Thanks to Harrald Herrlich (Locutus) for testing
You really need a very good start to win this matchup. Bait with your Counterbalances and Dark Confidants to resolve a Survival with mana open to directly get a Genesis into your graveyard and you’ll be in a position to win. Otherwise you won’t even stand a fighting chance, but the matchup is so much better than with other NQG versions because you actually can do something and have threats that scare them.
-3 Ghastly Demise
-1 Shriekmaw
-4 Daze
+4 Thoughtseize
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Trygon Predator
+2 Extirpate
Daze won’t hit a thing anyways because the games always go into the lategame.
Postboard the matchup improves significantly because you gain access to Thoughtseize to force your Survival onto the table but your opponent still has the edge due to Humility and Engineered Explosives (+ Academy Ruins) and due to having more control elements.
Conclusion: a bad matchup preboard around 30-70 which gets a better Postboard and then is around 45-55- NQG/w
- Preboard vs. Thresh
- On the play: 3:2
- On the draw: 3:2
- Postboard vs. Thresh
- On the play: 4:1
- On the draw: 4:1
-> Thanks to Harrald Herrlich (Locutus) and to Thomas (Yulyn) for testing
This matchup is all about resolving a Counterbalance or a second turn threat. You are favored as you have Dark Confidant and Survival of the Fittest which are both must handles but you give the opposing Pithing Needles a target which really sucks. You have to focus on resolving one of your parts, especially Counterbalance. Use everything else to bait for counters and do not waste yours on irrelevant stuff like Tarmogoyfs or you will loose. Do not think that you are totally safe under a Counterbalance though because an opposing Mystic Enforcer will really ruin your day if you aren’t aware of the threat as you don’t have a way to handle it.
-1 Genesis
-4 Nimble Mongoose
-2 Ghastly Demise
+4 Thoughtseize
+1 Trygon Predator
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Counterbalance
Postboard you focus on obtaining the better board position and on resolving a Counterbalance. Nimble Mongoose is pretty mediocre because it gets outclassed too quickly and therefore rarely is relevant. Also it doesn’t help winning the Counterbalance war and with Survival you shouldn’t run out of relevant threats (read: Goyf) too quickly.
The third game is a gamble. You should board in all 15 cards and then decide. I’ll mostly board Survival of the Fittest out at this point because your opponent is very likely to keep his Pithing Needles in or to bring them back in if he has taken them out for game 2.
-4 Survival of the Fittest
-1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
+4 Nimble Mongoose
+1 Ghastly Demise
Conclusion: an matchup slightly in your favor preboard around 60-40 which gets a better Postboard and then is around 75-25- More Testing
- Cephalid Breakfast
- Preboard vs. Breakfast
- On the play: 4:1
- On the draw: 1:4
- Postboard vs. Breakfast
Not tested yet to a significant degree but improves very significantly as you gain access to Thoughtseize, Krosan Grip/Predator, Extirpate and Engineered Plague which are all strong hate.
-> Thanks to Marius Laber and Stefan Czolk (spiritofthewretch) for testing
This matchup is all about resolving a Counterbalance. Preboard Breakfast has almost no way to win through an active Balance/Top. If you manage to deal with the Vial you've won. The problem is, that you really need a good opening hand in this game, as you really want to have the Balance-lock installed by turn 3. If Breakfast goes for the Goyf beat down plan, you're usually able to outnumber their threads by using survival. Still, if you can't resolve a Counterbalance, you're likely to loose.
-4 Daze
-4 Nimble Mongoose
-1 Genesis
-1 Squee
-1 Shriekmaw
-1 Portent
+4 Engineered Plague
+2 Extirpate
+1 Yixlid Jailer
+4 Thoughtseize
+1 Counterbalance
You bring in a lot of hate but still have to watch out for opposing Goyfs and have to be extra careful to not overextend into a Pernicious Deed. Do always set your Engineered Plague on Cephalid rather than on Wizard as you still play Dark Confidant.
Conclusion: an even matchup preboard around 50-50 which gets a little better Postboard and then is around 65-35- Even More Testing (but with fewer results)
- Suicide Black
You’re favored here. Everything you play is a great nuisance for them… Nimble Mongoose will grow very quickly, Counterbalance locks them out of the game as you can nearly always count on countering their 1 and 2 drops, Survival of the Fittest is not nearly as good as in other matchups because its too mana intensive through their Wastelands + Sinkholes. You have to be the agro player though because your entire removal is useless.
-3 Ghastly Demise
-1 Shriekmaw
-1 Genesis
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Counterbalance
+1 Trygon Predator
+1 Krosan Grip
Postboard you bring in stuff to kill their Umezawa’s Jitte and Dystopias. Additional Counterbalances are never bad but Thoughtseize is only a filler. The matchup percentages severely drop in the Postboard games as they gain more efficient hate and you don’t really get anything out of boarding… If they play Perish over Dystopia, you’re even more screwed, but the matchup still stays about a coin flip.
3. Tournament Report
Marius Laber decided to play this deck on the last Legacy Tournament in Speyer for 2007 which was simultaneously the last tournament in the Paladins Corner.
42 people showed up which allowed 6 rounds of Swiss and top8 play outs.
He played above version with a slight modification:
In the sideboard he opted for:
Link to the report (screw that character limit!)
4. Possible Modifications
As you can see, we never really settled on a fix list. There is my take with only 18 lands, there is Marius’s take with 3 Bayou and only 3 removals… we’d want to throw some ideas out which we came along while developing for those who are interested in doing some further testing.
All modifications are based on my list.
- Version 1: Removal-less Version
With these modifications, you weaken your Goblins matchup for a stronger mirror and control matchup by adding in more threats. You still leave a singleton Shriekmaw in to have some recurable removal via Survival.
- Version 2: Top-heavy Version
Playing this modification, you make the maximum profit out of your Survival engine by upping your creature count… but with a high price: Dark Confidant becomes really, really dangerous for you.
I’ve always been one of the people who say that Dark Confidant never lives and when he does, you’ve won the game but with 9 cmc5 and 1 cmc8 spell, you have to play really carefully when low on life.
- Version 3: All-in Version
Resolving a Survival of the Fittest or Counterbalance is good I hear… with these changes you go into the all-in mode meaning that you don’t have any removal sans Survival but are also more likely to get one down.
- Version 4: a tribute to team aYb
Spellstutter is just a mad piece of tek(tm) countering your opponents spells while chumping/flying overhead for the win.
It replaces the underwhelming Nimble Mongooses (it is quite hard to accumulate 7 cards in your graveyard with this version) because it also ups the blue count and is not Thresh dependant.
I really like this version at the moment because it increases the threat count to a full 12 'scary turn2 plays that win the game' with more permission to support them.
The real aYb list can be found here.
- Version 5: the Updated Original Version for the new Metagame
Random update for the original version: four Counterbalances are just a must have in the current environment.
5. Conclusion
In conclusion, one can say that we offer you an interesting twist on NQG which chooses to run more broken shit over solutions…
Overall, the list is not that broken as we expected it to be but it is still a strong variation of the existing NQG builds which can hold itself in the mirror and in about any other matchup, just like normal NQG but which has a better matchup against control and randomness.
Some problems with this list are that you are even more vulnerable to non-basic hate (Wasteland recursion, Blood Moon effects, Back to Basics etc.) but we think that the positive aspects of this version way outweigh the weaknesses created.
Have fun and let us know what you think of this version.
Comments and questions welcome!
- Stefan Czolk (spirit of the wretch)
- Marius Laber (Chefkoch)
- Clemens Wolff (Der_imaginäre_Freund)
All of EPIC (not the American Legacy Team one) team SPOD fame.
Bonus Section (or how to fit Survival into more tier 1 decks)
Influenced by our idea to fit Survival into NQG and very probably by alcohol/drugs, Thomas (Yulyn) had the idea to fit the Survival engine into another deck. Harrald Herrlich (Locutus) influenced by the same motives (alcohol/drugs) approved this idea.
The morning after, when both were un-drunk again, they still found the idea good and started testing and… oh wonder! It actually worked and made the deck so much more broken.
We’re talking of Vial Goblins.
Here’s an approximate list of what they had come up with:
My take on this is:Code:/// Maindeck (60 cards) // Lands 4 Bloodstained Mire 4 Wooded Foothills 4 Taiga 3 Badlands 4 Rishadan Port 2 Wasteland // Acceleration 4 AEther Vial // Goblins Stuff 4 Goblin Lackey 4 Goblin Piledriver 4 Goblin Warchief 3 Siege-Gang Commander // Card Advantage 4 Goblin Matron 4 Goblin Ringleader 2 Wort, Boggart Auntie // Survival stuff 4 Survival of the Fittest 1 Squee, Goblin Nabob 1 Tin Street Hooligan // Removal 4 Gempalm Incinerator /// Sideboard (15 cards) 4 Cabal Therapy 3 Thoughtseize 1 Goblin King 2 Engineered Explosives 1 Pernicious Deed 1 Goblin Tinkerer 1 Tin Street Hooligan 2 Krosan Grip
-1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
-1 Gempalm Incinerator
-2 Wasteland
+1 Mogg Fanatic
+1 Badlands
+2 Stomping Ground
Post Morningtide update:
-1 Stomping Grounds
-2 Gempalm Incinerator
-1 Mogg Fanatic
+1 Blood Crypt
+3 Warren Weirding
Last edited by diffy; 06-01-2008 at 04:28 AM. Reason: Updated Post: June 1st 08
This is, at least, the most thoroughly written submission. I think we might encourage other contestants to use this as a template for their own write-ups.
Quick question, though: Do the "Play/Draw" statistics relate to you being on the draw, or your opponent?
The E.P.I.C. Syndicate: I mean, if they play a lullaby for babies they should at least play the Monster Mash when somebody dies.
Glad to see somebody else working on the UG Threshold/Survival hybrid, although I admit this is more Threshold-y than my UG experiments, which are more Survival/Counterbalance in nature with less cantrips and more random 1-ofs. Neat lists and good write-up explaining possible variances.
Strangely the Goblin Survival is making my brain go more nuts than the NQG one. With so many new awesome singleton Goblins, I'm going to go work on this.
With more testing, the biggest vulnerability I have had is the few numbers of creatures. If you use, say, Tarmogoyf for bait in the Threshold mirror, by the time you force down Survival, you might not have any creatures left to discard. In a few test games, BrassMan used Stifles out of StifleThresh very effectively countering the Survival activations while getting ahead with Nimble Mongoose. Because it has fewer instants and more 2 drop permanents, this build hits Threshold much slower.
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
First of all I really like the decklist you come up with after your own thoughts but two things really bug me:
Your removal:
Not being able to handle black creatures (usually Confidant/Tombstalker) is a serious weakness. After SB this will even be more severe as Demise cannot be casted sometimes.
Manabase:
You won't need 10 fetchlands. 6-7 are more than enough. Every solid ******** list (with or without Balance) runs 6-7 fetchlands.
With the current removal and only 8 permanent mana sources I doubt that you are favored against black/LD decks unless you have an early Counterbalance and he wasn't able to resolve any creature until then.
TS Crew
You could cut the Ghastly demises and run more Shriekmaws. A Gilded drake would give you some removal against black creatures (and it's blue). Same function, but it'd make your Survival more useful.
Another thing I noticed is the lack of "haste". The benefit of Survival is Anger, or end-of-turn Aether vial. For Vial you need more creatures I guess, but a single Volcanic- and Tropical island will let you run Anger.
"Our words are backed with NUCLEAR WEAPONS!"
eternal witness can be a real pain in the ass for the opponent... to be able to use survivals for graveyard-tech is mean :)
Welcome to The Source. Please be advised that proper capitalization is a requirement on these boards. Please use it in the future. - Zilla
My team has been working on a similar deck for the past weeks and Chris Wilczek recently won the monthly Legacy tournament in Düsseldorf with it. Eventhough our list is still quite different to yours, this deck is really strong. Also, thumbs up to that very well written submission. It's great to see people putting effort into their decks.
One thing we noticed real quick is that with such a high permanent count, you're not always able to reach Threshold quickly, thus we have been tempted to cut Nimble Mongoose from the deck and replace it with other creatures. Mongoose just doesn't seem strong as a 1/1 creature. What was your experience with this? Have you had any problems?
Also, Wonder should probably be in the maindeck, it is such a house... Flying Tarmogoyfs are broken. :)
Sometimes you have to read between the minds.
++ T8ing all over Europe since 2005 ++
++ Team aYb - all your base (are belong to us) ++
We cut wonder from the maindeck, since it's pretty redundant in some MUs: To get the Wonder online, you have to have a Survival and at that point you could simply throw out more Goyfs. They are pretty broken, too =)
You want to have wonder mostly against aggro.decs (Goblins, Goyf-Slight,...) in order to prevent your opponent from chump-blocking your guys and swarm/burn you.
What did you replace the Mongeese with? It's true, that this deck gets to Threshold quite difficult, so another option would be nice.
Thanks for all the credit for the post!
The play/draw statistics relate to the Survival Gro being on the play/draw. Some of these numbers seem really, really odd (e.g. winning more against TES being on the draw) and I can't really explain it; it just turned out so in testing.
We tried to make the deck as little dependant on Survival as anyhow possible and we really see it as a Thresh deck that just can cast Door to Nothingness aka Survival of the Fittest which is the stronger strategy in my opinion.
It is a problem and that's why Marius ran Smother in the Ghastly Demise slot in the tournament but for matter of the curve I decided that Demise had to be better. You won't face black all day long anyways and in those matchups your other threats are likely to outclass your oponents ones.
I tried a hole lot of configurations (also ones with Engineered Explosives or Darkblast) and this was the one that sucked the least.
I've always been a fan of running a lot of fetchies as they thin your deck and are needed in conjunction with SdT/Brainstorm/Counterbalance. They also help reaching Thresh.
If you aren't comfortable with 10 fetchies you can cut one for another dual but I wouldn't go lower than that.
If you keep your fetchies uncracked till the last possible moment, you won't have any problems (at least I never had any).
The point of this deck is not to be good when you have an active Survival. If you ever get Survival online, you've won, regardless of what you're tutoring up with it so I'd rather not play (or as little as anyhow possible) dead stuff in the situations in which you don't have Survival (Anger etc).
In some matchups, especially against aggro and the mirror, this has come up but I still like Mongoose for the control matchups. I'm curious what you have replaced it with though... there just seem to be so little worthy early drops other than it.
If I were to cut Nimble Mongoose I could see adding in the last Dark Confidant and probably a singleton Tombstalker along the lines of others.
Or just get Shriekmaw+Genesis online.
That's what the one in the sideboard is for.
Last edited by diffy; 06-01-2008 at 04:15 AM.
The thres deck is nice and everything, but the goblin deck is ingenious! :)
About the goblin deck:
I'd probably fit 1 anger in there, i know Warchief gives haste...but pitch anger to get lackey, play lackey (or use vial), attack put something NASTY into play just sounds sexy. Oh yeah, and i wonder how survival and food chain would get along?
About the thres deck:
Needs more confidant i think, but i like the idea...and i think you're 100% right about not needing a toolbox, but instead using it just for CA and more goyf's.
/Zeus
I thoroughly enjoyed this piece. It was so well written that I actually became interested and tried Survival of the Fittest in my threshold build. It is unbelievable. It just wins so many games on its own.
While increasing the number of broken Turn 2 plays, one thing comes to mind - Chrome Mox. It potentially speeds you up a whole turn. I understand this concept would be quite different, however, could it work? Or am I totally off on this one?
EDIT 1: I tried dropping the Mongeese for more control elements, but sometimes I could not use the Forced through Survival as I had no creatures in my hand.
EDIT 2: The only problem I have with your list is the inability to handle any black creature. I do prefer Smother over Demise, but I was also trying Putrefy - to power up Counterbalance. Alas, it sucked.
Last edited by Yi Gongbao; 01-08-2008 at 09:34 AM. Reason: adding stuff
Mao on Goblins - "I have witnessed the tremendous energy of the masses. On this foundation it is possible to accomplish any task whatsoever."
Mao on Beating Combo - "In order to get rid of the gun it is necessary to take up the gun."
This is a continuation of the opening post. The board apparently has a character limit for posts and so would not let anyone merge the posts or post it all at once. Link added in the opening post.
Tournament Report by Marius Laber
After some good results at Side event of GP:Stuttgart with Rifter and U/W Control at our last tournament in Speyer decided to take a new deck to the last tournament in Speyer for this year (and every other year as the location gets closed which is a pity).
I wasn't sure what to play as Rifter is very lame and I lend my Grow deck to Florin. The idea what to play came to me as I read the article about Survival Grow on Themanadrain.com and talked about it with Clemens (Der_Imaginäre_Freund). He suggested the manabase without basic lands as land hate kills you anyway.
I decided to give this deck a try:
Main:
4 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
3 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
1 Breeding Pool
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Counterbalance
3 Senseis Divining Top
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongose
3 Dark Confidant
1 Shriekmaw
1 Squee
1 Genesis
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Smother
Board:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Krosan Grip
4 Engineered Plague
1 Yixlid Jailer
3 Winter Orb
I wasn't really happy with the deck as it didn't played Blood Moon or B2B but it played Survival and so I took it.
The Sideboard was thought against Landstill and Grave combo decks like Ichorid or Breakfast as I tested a bit and found out that the Grow Matchup should be slightly positive and the Goblin Matchup is really bad even with massive hate in the board.
The plan was not to play against goblins or elves and instead of that win all mirrors (or pseudo-mirrors) and beat the combo fraction.
Stefan played Solidarity as he decided that Ichorid was a bad choice in Speyer as everyone has graveyard hate here, Florin played Grow/w and Manuel played TES for the first time.
Before the tournament I noticed that Clemens didn't hand over the Tarmogoyfs and Counterbalances to Thomas and I had to loan me the cards just before the registration was over (many thanks to Mathias Passin and Andreas Wahl) Sorry again but I lent my entire NQG/w to Tobias Schein and didn’t think of you wanting the cards
After that the tournament begins 42 players signed up so that we play 6 rounds of Swiss with cut to top8.
Round 1: 2-Land-Belcher
He wins the die roll.
Game 1:
He plays Land Grant and I know that my hand is crappy against this and hope the best.
But he shows me a hand full of mana and Empty the Warrens and creates 14 little green men.
I shortly think about it and scoop as I don't have any answers to this in maindeck.
Nice start for my deck into this tournament.
While Sideboarding he tells me like 3 times that this is the first time him playing Belcher in a tournament. Great!
In: 4x Engineered Plague
Out: 1x Genesis, 1x Squee, 1x Shriekmaw, 1x Smother
Game 2:
I keep a hand full of counters and draw and very fast I find a plague to deal with goblin tokens and have enough counters to shut off his belcher.
Survival turns 2 mongooses into 2 Goyfs out of which finish there bloody work - quickly.
Game 3:
He keeps his hand after infelt 2 seconds and my first hand sucks as it only has 1 land and no Counterspells.
So mulligan to six reveals no lands and down to five I do have 2 lands, but no draw and no counters. The hand at 4 cards also sucks but at least I have a Ponder to search counters.
I don't think it was a bad decision but I am not very content as I think his hand is perfect.
He skips his 1st turn and only plays a Chrome Mox. I draw into a FoW and a next turn ponder with my Ponder and now I think I am safe enough, as I have a engineered plague to deal with goblins and counters to deal with belcher.
But as Magic is sometimes a game of luck I don't draw a 2nd land for 6 turns but can counter a Belcher and as I finally find 2 lands he plays EtW. I shortly calculate the damage and he would put me down to 2 until I can draw my 3rd land and play a plague.
The 2nd land is a delta so I would go to 1. He terminates my plans by setting of another Belcher which I have to force and so I cannot fetch and die to the tokens.
GREAT PLAN beating combo decks... It worked VERY well ... damnit!
0-1-0 || 1-2
Round 2: Angel Staxx
Every time Oliver played legacy with us (as I think he mainly plays vintage) he played angel-Staxx and so it is today.
He wins the die roll.
I don't really remember all details of these matches but 1st game I can counter some stuff and smother a morph and he does not draw very well after his opening hand and so survival kills him.
In: 3x Krosan Grip
Out: 3x Counterbalance
The 2nd Game he has everything! And this multiple times! I don't have a snowball's chance in hell and he crushes me.
Game 3 he takes at least one mulligan maybe two I really can't remember. The only thing I know is that as I can start. I can daze him multiple times and bring it home even though he finds an Armageddon the turn before he would have died and has tabernacle in grave and crucible in game. But nevertheless I beat him as I have enough lands and enough men.
1-1-0 || 3-3
Round 3: 5colour - Tribal-Zoo
Game 1:
He leads off with Kird Ape and two Skyshroud Elites.
I was playing draw spells and countering some burn and finally dropping counterbalance and finding top soon after.
In the meantime I play Goyf and goose and so stop his beat down.
At the time I stabilized the board and he had no cards in hand and only an ape in game he concedes
Game 2:
I have an early Counterbalance and some beaters and his start isn't very fast in addition.
After countering the 3rd burn spell and one of his creatures by using ponder and brainstorm he scoops.
2-1-0 || 5-3
Round 4: Burn
Game 1:
He plays mountain lava spike and I am not very satisfied as I don't have CB in my opening hand. I let him burn my head and play mongoose and some turns later a 3/4 goofy. I can daze both of his magma jets so he can't scry away his lands and he fires me down to 4 with a fireblast, which I let resolve although having a force as I don't want to die to price of progress.
I fetch down to 3 to play a Goyf which increases my clock by one turn. He has a bolt which gets forced, so I can attack for the rest of his life.
Game 2:
I have a starting hand with fetch, bayou, counterbalance, daze, ponder, mongoose, Goyf. Superb hand against this deck. But I cannot set the counterbalance as I don't draw a second blue mana for the entire game. when I finally find it and try to cast counterbalance I get a price for 6 setting me to 5 in response and in his turn another price which kills me as the top card of my library is a mongoose.
Game 3:
Now I don’t have a counterbalance but 2 dazes and a force on my opening hand and in addition 1 man and a survival plus 2 lands. I start and he runs into my counters and gets beaten to death by some impressive goofys.
3-1-0 || 7-4
Round 5: U/G/W Grow
He wants to draw as both of us would have the chance to get into top 8 at the last round. I decline as I think my MU is better and so we play.
For the first time in tournament I win dice roll
Game 1:
I have a pretty solid hand for the mirror with 3 lands 2 counterbalance and 1 confidant and 1 ponder. I start with ponder and he sets up a top. I can play counterbalance and his reaction is BUUUHHHHH! He plays counterbalance himself but I can do the trickshot by revealing daze. He is pissed but I cannot do much! I play confi and brainstorm and can only find things with cc 1.
He plays another CB (what a mirror!) and this wins as I never resolve anything against counterbalance + top. And in the end I forget to trigger the counterbalance to put a genesis on the table but now it is irrelevant. The best thing in this match is that I did myself 12 points of damage by fetching twice and revealing with confidant in row : Squee (he likes me); Counterbalance and Genesis!
As we board he offers me the draw again. Very fair of him and I accept. I think the MU is better for me but another game like this and I am out of the tournament.
3-1-1 || 7-5
Round 6: UGRB Landstill
BAD this sucks! Why do I have to play Harrald! This matchup isn't good although he doesn't even has academy/explosives lock but he has deeds!
I loose the die roll once again...
Game 1:
He kills all my guys and cleans the board with deeds and beats me to death. Not very thrilling.
Game 2:
I have a good hand and put the pressure up with a mongoose and a confidant.
After a while he counters my winter orb with only one land untapped what would have won as I assume and then blows off my board with deed. I can recover with survival and so get rich of the Squee which pursuits me like a stalker. Against this hell machine he has no chance and we go to the last match.
Game 3:
I have early confi and goose and he only has deed with 4 lands in game and I can Krosan Grip it ...
The confi makes me some pain but draws awfully nice cards like smother (stopping his factory from blocking) Krosan grip (the same) and winter orb.
The orb gets countered once again but my survival and the 3 man on board win it before he can do anything about it but burning my confi.
4-1-1 || 9-6
So I am top 8 and very happy.
Top 8 Joachim Schulze (Angel Staxx)
He wins the die roll. I should never play with dices for money!
Game 1:
My opening hand is Force, Survival, and Brainstorm, 2 x Fetch, Dual and Tarmogoyf. I think this hand is acceptable and we start.
He begins with Tomb and Chalice one which gets Forced. I can only play a land as my Brainstorm had to be removed and drawing Shriekmaw wasn't what I hoped to get.
He plays another Tomb and Chalice on 2. I look at my hand and begin to cry silently. Even more after I only draw Confidants more Survivals and Counterbalances for the rest of the game.
He burns himself down to 4 before morphing up an angel for another 2 pain and I wish I had some shocks and red mana in the deck! Besides this he has Smokestack, Ghostly Prison and Crucible in game and Flagstones for saccing tricks and I have... Nothing.
I also got to 2 mana to Shriekmaw his angel.
In: 3x Krosan Grip 4x Leyline of Void
Out: 3x Counterbalance 1x Squee 2x Smother and 1x random card
Game 2:
I keep a hand of Leyline, 2x Daze, 2x Fetch, goose and Shriekmaw and he mulligans twice.
Leyline enters play and I can play the goose. He tries Suppression Field and I shortly think to let it resolve until I recognize that I only have 2 fetch lands. So I daze and the next turn I also daze a 3Sphere.
He does nothing of relevance the next turn and I can drop my drawn confidant. He plays Smokestack then I reveal Survival which brings a Tarmogoyf and he gets crushed by my monsters.
Game 3:
He mulligans to 6 and I keep a very strong hand with Force, Blue spell, Confident, 3 lands and Goose
I can Force his chalice 1 and play my goose.
He tries to play crucible but I top decked daze and so may confidant draws enough cards and he has no chance to recover.
5-1-1 || 11-7
Top 4 Alexander Schütz (Cephalid Breakfast)
Guess who won the die roll....
My hand is Survival, Daze, Confi, Smother, Force, Ponder and Delta
He starts with nomad and me with ponder looking into no other mana and drawing Brainstorm after the shuffle.
The brainstorm finds me some land and I can daze his Illusionist and play Confidant as I wanted to first find another blue card for FoW before playing counterbalance.
The decision was right as the plays another illusionist which I can force.
I now smother his nomad and he plays worldly tutor into the illusionist and shows me another nomad ... damnit combo decks...
In: 4x Leyline, 1x Yixlid jailer, 4x engineered plague
out: 4x survival 1x Squee 1x genesis 1x Shriekmaw and 2 random cards
Game 2:
I mulligan my 1st hand as there is no hate on it and I get rewarded with Daze, Heath, Bayou, Tropical, Leyline and plague.
In this game he only has multiple vials and the nomads but nothing else and in the end I have 2 Leylines and a plague plus 3 beaters because the first I top decked was a goose and in my first ponder I found a top.
Game 3:
My first hand has no hate at all so same as before but this time it is a bit harder. I decide to keep this hand: Leyline, Top, FoW, goose, Brainstorm and Goyf.
The story of this game is told very fast. I don't get a land out of 7 rounds (as he started I had 8! draws) and then he finally beats me up with his guys as I can counter his tutor on Cephalid to not let him combo.
So my plan to bash combo was fizzled entirely.
I could have got into finals as he forgot to reshuffle 3 cards into library after the 2nd game. We both recognized it after he drew the 1st card of his opening hand, but I told him not to call the judge because he is quite young and looked so sad...
5-2-1 || 12-9
Playing out 3rd place against Alexander Thomas with AfFoWnity
Game 1:
Finally I win the dice roll again!
And once again it happens that I have Squee on my opening hand followed by confi, brainstorm, Counterbalance, top, mungo and bayou
He starts playing ravager out of a Mox and I can play my top. His Chalice for 1 is dazed but forced through by him and now my hand isn't very good ... he doesn't much either but beating me until I find a survival and get 2 Goyfs out opposing his ravager and a enforcer.
At this time he plays chalice for 2 and I see myself loosing as I can't attack he only has to wait for one of his flyers. But he makes a mistake and attacks me with the enforcer which gets doubleblocked by the Goyfs and he sacs in all he has to let that thing survive as it is 9/9 then.
Now I am back in business and survival and genesis win this match by recurring my chump blockers and sending in the Goyfs to the red zone.
Out 3 counterbalance
In 3 Krosan grip
Game 2:
He plays all his hand on the table and I only have to force the hoverguard and then he is nearly dead as the rest is only mana and 1 frogmite.
I only have to play a goyf and a confi and destroy his ravager with krosan grip and the match is over
6-2-1 || 14-9
At the end I am third and get a taiga.
Props:
Thomas (Yulyn) for covering in the top 8!
Squee for shipping me around all goblin players
The location and the owners for being superb
All guys who lend me cards (Stefan, Andreas, Mathias)
Slops:
Loosing against every combo deck I had to play against
Squee for pursuing me
Stefan for not top8ing although he played dirty combo
Im player Threshold and now I have tried Survival Threshold I think that survival makes stronger Threshold because survival gives card advantage to long term and Threshold needed this for being more stronger vs some pariings.
I had the same thoughts you all did, but Nimble Mongoose is very important in a lot of matchups. What's more, in the games where you don't get Survival online or aren't fast enough on that plan, just having the Mongoose is essential. Like blocking against Goblins. I could see maybe Skyshroud Elite, but the Shroud really really helps. You can do things like run him up against a bear with a fresh Jitte and win the fight because they can't remove a counter to kill him afterwards. In short, I agree that Mongoose is often poor, but it seems better than every other alternative.
The logic regarding cutting Wonder is that it is quite redundant with Genesis, and we felt that Genesis is probably stronger. Wonder is randomly useful to fly over EtW tokens, for instance, but you want more creatures you can cast.
I could actually see getting some Tombstalkers or Trygon Predators or something in the mix here. Personally I dislike the Ghastly Demises. I even tried a white splash for StP, but I had trouble finding the room and it made the mana worse.
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
Nice take on combining the two archtypes. It seems solid. Do you ever find 14 creatures too few for survival?
Not if you play a little carefully and use your cantrips correctly. Just don't play that 1st turn Nimble Mongoose (you aren't the agro player).
Double post for the post-CaNGD update:
New tech on the radar:
Spellstutter Sprite (savagely ripped from team aYb's NQS)
For testing purposes, this is replacing the oh-so underwhelming Nimble Mongeese.
Also, I've cut a Daze (this is probably a mistake but more and more people just play around Daze after seeing that you're aggro-controlish making it somewhat less impressive) for Dark Confidant n°4.
-4 Nimble Mongoose
-1 Daze
+1 Dark Confidant
+4 Spellstutter Sprite
Up to now, the Spellstutter Sprite is pretty awesome being an additional counter and a great trick with Survival on the table (not an argument, I know but still funny). It also makes FoW more reliable by drastically increasing the blue count but makes Counterbalance slightly less good because it only leaves 13 cards in the 1 mana slot.
Current curve:
cmc1: 13
cmc2: 22
cmc3: 01
cmc4: 00
cmc5: 06
More to come when I get some more testing done.
For reference, here's my current list:
Code:/// Maindeck (60 cards) // Lands (18) 4 Polluted Delta 2 Flooded Strand 2 Windswept Heath 2 Wooded Foothills 4 Tropical Island 3 Underground Sea 1 Bayou // Winconditions (4) 4 Tarmogoyf // Permission (14) 4 Spellstutter Sprite 3 Counterbalance 3 Daze 4 Force of Will // Removal (4) 3 Ghastly Demise 1 Shriekmaw // Card Advantage (8) 4 Dark Confidant 4 Survival of the Fittest // Cantrips (10) 4 Brainstorm 3 Ponder 3 Sensei's Divining Top // Survival Men (2) 1 Squee, Goblin Nabob 1 Genesis /// Sideboard (15 cards) 1 Counterbalance 1 Wonder 2 Extirpate 1 Yixlid Jailer 4 Engineered Plague 4 Thoughtseize 2 Trygon Predator
Just a little thought, based upon the inclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, what do you think about Spiketail Hatchling (I realize this argument is like Force spike over Spell Snare)? I know UG Worse than fish played Hatchling and it was pretty good there. Thoughts?
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