I suppose this is quite a valid argument and you are definitely more experienced with the deck. But most of my builds of landstill do run haunting echoes, and being able to extirpate either counterspell or force of will and then echoes them when they have a crippled counter wall seems strong. This is assuming you run 2 or 3 maindeck echoes with 3 or 4 extirpate in the board (which does handle the ichorid matchup...that deck is strong and beats the shit outa landstill). I guess it really is subjective to the build, but I've always thought that landstill does well with some yard hate in the board and extirpate should be as good a choice as any. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that it can further your gameplan in the control mirror.Originally Posted by URABAHN
they haunt minds...
I'm not 100% on where I stand with the card, but I see a lot wrong, or potentially wrong with this. If Landstill is only running cards that "win you the match" than you should change out 75% of the deck for the love of christ. Also, this makes counterspells useless. Think of Extirpate as a counter for the spells that counters fail against (Waste and Loam to name a few). It also has a significant leg up on superior cards like Echoes in that it has split fucking second. Are you really ever going to reliably resolve a Echoes against another Landstill deck?
Basically, sure, Extirpate-ing a Waste might not win you the match, but if it means you don't lose, is that really such a bad thing?
I've never seen him so upset....or ever before.
Just to clarify for the folks reading this, what I wrote was
"Maybe you get to tag a Wasteland, but you still need to win the match. Maybe you get to tag a Force of Will, but you still need to win the match."
I don't think that means I condone changing out 75% of the deck. I do condone leaving Extirpate at home unless your meta is rampant with Loam Control and Ichorid decks. I'd probably play Extirpate at The Lucky Frog tournaments because if 25% of the field is Loam or Ichorid, I'll probably bump into one of them sooner or later in the 3 or 4 Round tournament.
Can you name others? I can think of more than a few cards Extirpate won't counter, Haunting Echoes, Standstill, Decree of Justice, Crucible of Worlds, [manlands], Pernicious Deed, Stifle, and Wasteland. Phantom, by naming Wasteland as a spell that counters fail against, do you mean recurring Wastelands under Crucible of Worlds or Life from the Loam?
Yes, yes you are. When given the choice between Extirpate and Haunting Echoes in the Landstill mirror, think about which one does more. Make your decision based on a couple of assumptions (this is almost an entirely different discussion altogether, but I'll make it brief).
1. The match will go into the late game and you will have plenty of mana.
2. The match will go into the late game and you will have enough countermagic.
Between you and your opponent, there'll be enough dual lands on the table to hold a Dual Land Draft at $25 a person. When you do decide to cast Haunting Echoes, you'll have at least 1 Counterspell, probably a Force of Will, and another blue card.
So, which one would you choose? Haunting Echoes or Extirpate?
Bandage won't lose me the game either, but you don't see Landstill players packing that in their deck. Maybe instead of Extirpate, I could play something more useful. I'd rather play with Decree of Justice, because at least that card is more useful in the Landstill mirror than Extirpate.
Extirpate is nuts and should be showing up in more decks that I see it. The first place I made for it in my decks, are all decks running Cunning Wish and Swamps, which for me is GAT/Gofy and Tog; not to mention Landstill/B. In those decks, I really recommend Extirpate which has amazing/ball-busting utility, esp as the format is shifting away from aggro and more to control and combo. Against aggro-control, it's only mediocre due to threat overall diversity. A truly great card.
In my Tog lists, I run both.So, which one would you choose? Haunting Echoes or Extirpate?
How do you guys figure Extirpate is good against Ichorid? You would need 2 Extirpates on both Bridge From Below and Ichorid to win the game, unless of course you can somehow remove Bridges otherwise or get enough manlands to make Ichorids not a threat. If your really worried about Ichorid I think Crypt would be a better a better hate option.
If you remove Bridges, they can't win out of no where. The best thing to do is to respond the triggers from Dread Return.
If you remove Ichorid, they loose the ability to go on in the long game. They are left with Narcomebas and Trolls to return.
Exactly, so basically you need to remove both, or otherwise invalidate both strats.
If you can put on enough pressure, you can get away with removing only one though. If you have creatures that sacrifice them selfs, you don't need to worry about Bridge as much. So, AffinityWithMaindeckCryptAndExtirpate.dec would have a solid match up against Ichorid, but it could still lose to a turn one kill.
I think maybe you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. Your argument was that Extirpate was bad because it you still have to win the game after casting it (right?). Here's your board for Gen Con:
4 Meddling Mage
3 Teferi’s Response
4 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives
Don't all these cards fall under the same category, except maybe Mage?
Counters work on all of those (except lands and Decree I guess, but Echoes is equally as shitty against Decree as Extirpate against DoJ). And yes, I was talking about reccuring Wastes. I'm assuming (and have heard) that Landstill handles itself fairly well against a Waste or two, but I have also heard that recurring Wastes are almost game over against any deck, and a key to the mirror. I could be wrong here, and maybe your list has more trouble with the regulars since you saw fit to pack Teferi’s Response in the board, but you have to admit that 'pate>Echoes against Loam and Crucible recurring Wastes, since 5 mana can often be a pipe dream then.
Here are the situations where I would want Extirpate:
1) Recurring Wasteland. You might not even get to 5 mana, let alone 7.
2) You are forced to cast it before you get to seven mana.
3) You are at 7 mana and he is running Daze (do any builds run Daze any more? Did they ever?)
4) You both have the hand of Counterspellx2, FoW, and Echoes. You both have seven mana (or 8). If he has Echoes, he wins. If he doesn't, yours still get countered.
5) You need/want/would really benifit from seeing something in his hand.
6) He has more counters than you.
Now, I'm not saying that Echoes > 'pate in this matchup, but I do figure the reason that I don't see Echoes in boards anymore is because the number of matches it is useful against is less than the number of matchups Extirpate is useful against. We may be at a point in Legacy where 1 mana "good and uncounterable" answers are better than 5cc Sorcery bombs.
I've never seen him so upset....or ever before.
No, you're misunderstanding what he's saying because he's speaking in a higher language. You have to understand, that unless you're removing something that he has another of in his hand, then Extirpate is card disadvantage. You're not removing anything other than a possibility. Granted, if you're getting rid of some sort of lategame bomb that would eventually be a huge threat, or some sort of recursive engine, it will probably be worth it. Otherwise you're just dumping a card and going -1.
LOL at "higher language". He never once mentioned card advantage. People seem to have done pretty well with Crypt, and i can't help but notice that it is card disadvantage.
Also, I'm not agruing FOR the card in Landstills board, I was simply counter-pointing his arguemnet of rejection based on the premise that you still had to win the game after casting 'pate. You want to argue against the card, that's fine and I might even agree with it, but give us some solid arguments.
I've never seen him so upset....or ever before.
It's a one mana, uncounterable, instant speed Cranial Extraction. Why are we arguing about the stupid overpoweredness of this card?
Higher language my ass. If they lose one of their manlands to a FoF split, see an early FoW or StP, an early Landstill drop, etc....it's going to make up for it in the end, regardless of how many cards are in your hand afterwards. Chances are the first player to successfully resolve a FoF or be the winner of a broken Standstill is going to have the higher card base. Otherwise, what wins is being able to be uncounterable that will swing the game in your favor. Let's take U/W/b/g Landstill as an example:
Force
StP
Deed
Wasteland (in some builds)
Loam/Crucible
DoJ
EE
Fact
Mishra's
Monastery
Counterspell/Mana Leak/Rune Snag
Stifle
Krosan Grip
The list goes on, but here's some heavy hitters. So, out of those, your going to see a minimum of 3 being played in any deck, short of Loam/Crucible, in which there is typically only 1, or Wasteland, falling under the same category. So, with your Extirpates and their inability to respond with anything, you have now effectively hit them in a 1 for 1 situation, at minimum. Chances are, it's even higher than that. Now, factor in the fact you have 4 Extirpates SB'd. You now have the ability to hit even more options, where Haunting Echoes has to beg through a counter war to resolve on the average, or wait a very, very long time (on top of the fact it's a turn 5 at it's fastest). Late game may make it better, when your both staring down 10+ lands and you can hardcast an Echoes and FoW backup, but that's nowhere near the argument that in any point of the game your Extirpate will resolve, and hit something. The only time this is not to your advantage is if it's something like a Manland, when they have already seen multiples (and are in play), or a Decree of Justice after it's already sealed them the win via tokens, etc, and your out of removal. That's a very low chance of it being flat out dead.
In my opinion, I'd say Extirpate in multiples should win hands down in the mirrors. A single Haunting Echoes may crush, but there's no guarantee it'll succeed, and if it doesn't, your down either a lot of mana, or a lot of cards. I'd much rather just nitpick at possible threats or answers, and be certain that not only does it hit, chances are it hits much more than 1 card.
You're being sarcastic, right? I've tested the card in Train Wreck, Mono-Black Control, Red Death, and various flavors of Landstill against Rec-Sur, Goblins, Thresh, Landstill, TES, Belcher, Ichorid, and at least a couple other decks I can't remember right now. It's not like Cranial Extraction where you look at your opponent's hand and then remove all copies of that card from the game. It's okay, but it's not stupidly overpowered.
I don't think you realize you're almost speaking my language, DeathwingZERO. Let me edit your post to more closely reflect how I feel about Extirpate.
See what I did there? It's subtle, but what it essentially means is losing a card that I didn't have in the first place isn't going to make much difference in the end. Just because you took a FoW doesn't mean you've suddenly shifted the match in your favor. Just because you took Swords to Plowshares doesn't mean you've suddenly shifted the match in your favor. Your opponent can still have (as an example) more manlands and a Standstill on the board and even though you stole all the FoWs and all the StPs you've got your back up against a wall.
I couldn't agree more! You talk about shifting games into your favor, well drawing lots of relevant cards will do that for you.
How can one Landstill player be more uncounterable than another player? By playing Extirpate? You really think so? Decree of Justice would be a better place to look for an uncounterable "swingy" card.
One last thing
That's simply not correct. As pointed out in the original Extirpate thread, unless you take a card out of your opponent's hand, it's not card advantage, it's not even card parity (1-for-1).
I would agree it's not the same power level that a Cranial effect would have, but I still think people are really dodging the aspect if it's real power, and that's in a black based/splash control build, where it becomes better than any counterspell.
You may want to read CE again.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
No, I'm right, but I'll clarify. Extirpate is not like Cranial Extraction where you look at your opponent's hand, choose a card, and then remove all copies of that card from the game.
Yesterday i played with my ***** deck against a Type 2 (dralnu U B control) and lost to it
I FoW his Persecute and then he casts a Extirpate on it and removes the other 3 FoW from My HAND
I think this card is good beacause it could do very strong things compared to its casting cost!
“Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
Ouch! You had all four in your hand!?
In painting, you have unlimited power. You have the ability to move mountains. You can bend rivers.
LOL!Yesterday i played with my ***** deck against a Type 2 (dralnu U B control) and lost to it
I FoW his Persecute and then he casts a Extirpate on it and removes the other 3 FoW from My HAND
I think this card is good beacause it could do very strong things compared to its casting cost!
This goes to show you that even decks that seem weaker can still win.
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