I agree with Maximus on here. I actually tried one before, and found it to be bad. There are only 6 silver bullets in the deck, and more bullets means less counter. FoF is just plain better in the deck, given that Impulse/Brainstorm/Fetch works as a pseudo-tutor. If FoF is banned, than gifts might be worth it.Originally Posted by Maximus04
P.S. I found that factories are better at handling Geese or Crystalline sliver, but removal became very pesky. WW(due to shadow) also became problem. Is choice between Factory and Quicksand just metagame Dependant?
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
Well, guess you're right - more 4CC spells without cutting another one won't work that good =/
@ Mishra vs. Quicksand:
Imho the Mishra is more versatile.
It even takes down those pesky mongoose and provides a clock in the Combo-MU as you normally must expect them to go off so 2 Mana for 2 Dmg a turn sounds like a good deal while you have countermana available.
Doks
Hi.
Sry 4 doublepost but I guess I have some interesting results as I went 5-2-0 (finished 9th place) at Germany's Dülmen (95 Players)
1. Round: Simon mit Burn 2:0 win
2. Round: Robert mit *****/Madness-Mix 2:0 win
3. Round: Andre mit Mono-B Sui 2:0 win
4. Round: David mit U/W Landstill 0:2 loss
5. Round: Phillip mit Gobbos 2:0 win
6. Round: Fabian mit NQG/r 2:0 win
7. Round: Florian mit Hannifish 0:2 loss
I played a modern list with some little changes I will edit later as I am now going to sleep.
Edit tomorrow ;)
Doks
I think it shows exact weakness of your build. the deck is geared toward aggro/combo, control decks have easy matchup against you. Your build is superior than trad. in vs. aggro, but you need constant source of card advantage to in control matchup. One of the reason that I still use ophidian.
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
As Maximus04 said: You have to pay attention to your metagame.
And imho I did this.
A thing to add to the control-MU against U/W Landstill:
First game I did not resolve a spell except 2 Impulse and 1 FoF as my opponent David played 4 FoW, 4 Counterspell, 4 Rune Snag, 2 Mana Leak, 2 Spell Snare.
Quick Mishrabeatdown gave it to me in the end as all my solutions to it were just countered.
After this round he smiled at me and said that he probably had drawn godlike.
In the second game I was stuck on only 4 Islands for several turns while he was still beating down with 1 Mishra, 2 Conclaves and still having countermana available (now you may have an idea how much land he had =P).
Against Hannfish (U/W/B):
To be true, I never played against this deck.
After a Duress he saw myself with 3 CotV in my hand (-> dropping Meddling Mage naming the chalice) and my Vedalken Shackles were needlet.
I nearly could not do anything.
Same in game two:
A Chrome Mox powers out a 1st turn Chalice of the Void which just got forced.
Next turn I manaleaked a confidant, then drew a FoW (-> 3 cards in hand, 1 FoF, 1 Land and this FoW) and passed.
He Duressed me, taking the FoF, then dropped Meddling Mage naming FoW.
My topdeck then was a second FoW and some land when my life slipped away to Meddling Mage beatdown.
I am @ work now and don't know the exact list I played, but it looked like this:
14 Island
4 Fetch
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Chrome Mox
3 Morphling
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Mana Leak
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Impulse
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Fact or Fiction
2 Powder Keg
2 Vedalken Shackles
3 Repeal
In the SB the 6 BEB/Hydroblast plan against Goblins (boarding out chalice), some more Kegs/Shackles, the 4th FoF/Repeal and some crap that should have been the Back to Basics I wasn't willing to buy for about 6 Dollar a piece oO
The draw is more than cruel C.P. ;)
I mean, I traded some Ophidians to test without proxies, but the TfK/chalice+mox Engine is at least equal to the Ophidian's one.
The Strength I won some games was that things that normally disrupt control just didn't count for me.
Nonbasic-Hate, Price of Progress, Colorscrew, Spotremoval.
My opponents had so much dead cards against me (with chalice even more).
Ophidian would have given them some of those dead cards back.
Another point is, that in my build TfK nearly almost is a "draw 3, discard 1".
And TfK helps you to find answers in the early game much quicker than Ophidian (whereas I wouldn't count the time Ophidian comes online as early game ;) )
Except for Landstill I didn't miss the B2B and the Manabase is very constant.
So the ones of you who think a splash is needed - just try it out (I think I'll test a red one some time).
So far...
Doks
@Doks
TfK is good. However, it gives you 2 cards and that's it. I admit that Ophi being a creature is bad in a way that their removal is not dead, but when I tried TfK in an artifact heavy build, I ran out of gas eventually in control/aggrocontol matches and lost. Ophidian should not be played aggresively, since it acts more like a way of winning 50/50 situation. Keg/Shakles/B2B gets rid of blockers and you go for the card. Ophidian is amaging when both side ran out of gas, which happens quite a bit in aforementioned matchups.
About B2B, I found them to be MVP in the deck. It shuts down many decks in the format, and things like Rishardan Port is annoying at the least. I suppose it is metagame dependent, though.
I'm sold on Factories in your build. Looks like I'll have to replace my Quicksands.
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
The idea with the factories came to my mind weeks ago.
But most importan, Maximus04 just brought them back into perspective me trying them out and finding them viable for tournament play.
Well, I even think TfK vs. Ophidian depends on our builds (traditional vs. modern any1? ;) ) and own experience, so I guess we're doing right playing our own style.
But there's some question for me:
So why is Ophidian always a 4of?Ophidian should not be played aggresively, since it acts more like a way of winning 50/50 situation
You say you mustn't hurry to drop it, but by the time those situations develop you should easily have drawn at least one.
Before this happens, isn't he something like some kind of blocker?
And pitching it to FoW doesn't seem that good imho.
B2B:
I didn't mean to cut them all, but I wouldn't play them MB.
As I said I wanted them in the SB against Landstill. =)
Doks
Ophidian is 4-of because of its versatility. There are times that you want 1/3 wall to gain some time. Multiple ophies also acts as win condition, when your morphling are not available for some reason. Ophidian is one of those cads that you wann a see 4 or none. 3 might not be too bad(have not tested), but 2 is little too low.
EDIT: With factories, Ophidian being threat is not very valid, I guess.
EDIT(2): Here is my brief strategy on Ophidian
Vs. Aggro: Dropped on 5th turn at fastest, with UU open. If their assult is little bit too fast, can come down earlier. Keg + Phid on the board can stabilize the board quite a bit. After board has been swept, Phid will give you card advatage that is enough for the win. A single forbid in my build helps on utilizing the cards that Phid gives.
Vs. Aggro control w/ blue: They come down when you feel it is safe. First couple will get removed, and you don't really have to protectit if you do not have enough resources. If it sticks, with shakles.keg backup, you will win.
Vs. Aggro control without blue: Chances are that you are facing black. Put Phid down one they are out of gas. Play a little bit of aggro. Keep the confidant away from the board.
Vs. Combo: Gogo aggro phid. As long as you have counter backup, Play that phid and win the game. An active phid here means game.
Vs. Control w/ blue: I play teferi on SB, I feel that if either Phid or Teferi resolve it is the game. play very conservatively.
Vs. Control without blue: Don't spend much resources on phid if you're facing Removal.dec. Just resolve FoF then win with Morphling.
Vs. Solidarity: Turn 3 Phid is your god.
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
Sorry for lack of participation in this discussion, school and preparing for JSS Regionals has kept me busy.
I participated in a 34 man Legacy event the past weekend(All of these players are planning on attending the GP Columbus in May) I did win the tournament with the modern build but here are some observations about both the traditional and modern build I'll also give you a quick summary of how I did.
Round 1 vs Affinity 2-0
Round 2 vs Burn 2-0
Round 3 vs Gur Thresh 2-1
Round 4 vs Goblins(no splash) 2-1
Round 5 - I Draw
Top 8
Quarter finals vs Iggy Pop 2-1
Semi-Finals vs Goblins(no splash) 2-1
Finals vs Guw 2-0
Notes about the Tournament
1) There was only 1 Solidarity deck at the tournament(which i lent to my friend, he hasn't piloted it much except for some random playtesting with me)
2) This wasn't DCI sanctioned tournament(unfortunately)
3) This was a very aggro meta
4) None of the new innovative deck from The Source or Star City Games Forums made an appearance.
5) I was the only player running a control deck that I knew of.
I am beginning to start preparing for GP Columbus so I will not be posting my decklist but Doks or C.P. is welcome to see it through personal message.
Questions for the Modern Build
Which is the best choice?
4 Chalice and 4 Mox
4 Chalice and 3 Mox
3 Chalice and 4 Mox
Should you even run fetch lands? Since there is no Brainstorm/Fetch trick are the fetch lands even worth it since it runs such low amount of lands in the first place and it's very easy to lose to mana screw?
Question for both Modern and Traditional build
Is Teferi a legitimate SB option against Solidarity/Control?
Question for Traditional Build
Isn't my original deck from SCG D4D good enough after you fix the Solidarity matchup(SB options) and add the Factories ?(The deck had great matchups with every other deck)
Sidenotes
Traditional build beats the modern build in the mirror match 60-40 unless you have a few tricks up your sleeve...
I haven't seen any Landstill decks anywhere in the states Doks, but I'll playtest against them and make sure to be prepared. Always a bummer when you miss out on the Top 8. Make sure to pick up some B2B when you get the chance
I've spent a very long time (more or less since your list was posted) testing the matchups of the traditional build and I can assure you that unless you're the biggest lucksack on earth your matchups are not all that great against everything. Good Threshold players will go 50-50 with you both pre and post board, Goblins is at least 60-40 in their favor pre-board and about even post board, and random aggro can be somewhat problematic. It seems at this point that we've taken different directions with the deck. I've been attempting to abuse the hell out of Back to Basics and Fact or Fiction with this deck, because they are, in my opinion, the most objectionally powerful cards in the deck. Chalice can potentially be equally powerful, and it is certainly a good addition to the deck, but I've chose to leave it primarily in the board at this point.
Anyway, for the modern build I think you want 3 Chrome Mox and 4 Chalice of the Void because Chrome Mox is a card that, while it is very good at accellerating into Chalice and having turn 1 countermagic up you don't really want multiples in your opening hand whereas multiples of Chalice are not necessarily dead. Teferi is certainly viable against control in both builds if you feel it is necessary and it can be a random speedbump against Solidarity.
The main reason I wouldn't want to add Factories to the traditional build is because they absolutely suck with B2B out. You really don't need blockers in this deck, you have enough creature kill and bounce/steal so that a 2/2 blocker really won't help you all that much. It is an offensive tool, however, which can be randomly useful, but I think the trouble of possibly keeping you off UU in certain hands, which is absolutely crucial, and sucking under B2B is why I would keep them out. However, my build is centered around B2B, which is why that's such a huge issue for me. If your build cares less about that interaction then by all means add them in.
Out of curiousity, in testing has it appeared to be that Traditional MUC beats up on control and combo pretty well whereas Modern MUC has better aggro and combo matchups while sacrificing some of the control match?
Regarding Teferi as SB option - He is quite good. However you need to make sure that you drop him fast enough. I use 4 chalice + 3 Teferi in SB, and it prooved to be pretty decent. the matchup goes 50/50 after SB.
About your original list, I used a version with 1 more fetch and a single random forbid, and it proved to be quite good. I find all the matchups to be fair, there isn't an autowin, but every matchup is winnable. after inclusion of factory, I found that thresh matchup just got better.
Even after all this, I'm not sure if this deck will be viable anymore. Extirpate, due to the nature of the card, just destroys the deck. There is not much option but abandoning trad. build and go to the modern build, if the card sees play.
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
I'm slightly curious, how does Extirpate hurt the Traditional build more than the Modern one? No one is going to be maindecking that card, which means you'll have Chalice post-board to deal with it. The decks are very similar in every other way really, so unless you do something stupid like discard a Morphling and they Extirpate it (which isn't necessarily even that bad if you won game one). Yes Extirpate hurts when it hits FoW, ect, but you have Chalice post board in both versions of the deck anyway, as well as other counterspells if they do remove a set of Force of Counterspell itself.
Am I missing something other than that?
@ Kadaj
In Traditonal build, the fastest chalice coming down is turn 2. It usually cannot afford to play an aggro chilce. Extirpate is faster than chalice, and the decks that runs it can utilize the slight edge that the card provides.
They tend to shake the game with fast disruption first, forcing me to counter. as long as counterspell is in GY, you're done. The builds here only runs 2 kind of hard counters(3 if you run forbid), and losing one of those usually means you will be allowing them to wreck you. Mana leak or Disrupting Shoal is not an ideal counter in long, dragged out match.
EDIT: So this is what happens.
1. Early disruption - Counter - Extirpate - no late game for you.
or
2. Early Chalice - Allows a crucial spell to resolve - Just lose.
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
Actually, my variant of the so-called traditional build runs Chrome Mox as well to accellerate into counterspells faster, but that may not be a normal adoption. If the traditional build is not playing Chrome Mox then all it means is Chalice comes down on turn 2. Extirpate on turn 1 really doesn't do anything because unless they have some outrageous hand like Dark Ritual, Hymn, Extirpate, and you don't have a force, there won't be any targets. It IS crippling when it does resolve, even against the modern build, but that card is less effective against MUC than certain other decks because MUC is based on redundancy of threats/answers, so losing Force isn't as devastating as say Solidarity losing all of its High Tides before comboing off.
In any case one card is not enough to warrant the total unviability of a deck, no matter how much it hurts them. 3 color control builds (think Truffle Shuffle) are absolutely reamed by Blood Moon (yes I realize Blood Moon is 3cc and counterable but in this specific example neither case could really be exploited) but they're not unviable because of it. While Extirpate does hurt this deck it does not make it unviable. It does make the matchups against Red Death and Pikula (if they adopt this card) much harder, but beyond that what deck really scares you running this card?
EDIT:
If one spell resolves and kills you because you went turn 2 Chalice for 1 or something like that then you built your deck horribly wrong. There is a reason why Keg, Shackles, Repeal, whatever, are in this deck.
Hymn to torach and his friends are not very friendly. Meet negator on turn 3 after turn 2 hymn. Or sinkhole + hyppy even. The deck is built around the assumpton that you are not going to let an undealable threat resolve. Negator is untouchable with keg or shackles until it is too late.
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
Suicide black is always going to be a nightmare match for MUC. That, along with the bad solidarity mu, is just something that needs to be accepted. It was why suicide was designed in the first place, to beat mono blue control decks. That point is neither here nor there.
they haunt minds...
I guess I'll have to accept that. However, this deck's sui matchup is not that bad. 40/60?
Anyways, does not change the fact that extirpate will give you hard time against black control/fish/thresh/ETC
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
Let me get this straight. You're 5-1 going into round 7 and you didn't Intentionally Draw the last round to make Top 8 (I assume there was a cut to Top 8)?
My opponent didn't want to draw as there were about 6 players standing 5:1 and about 2 or 3 even higher, so I had to play.
Throwing a chair at my opponents head is not that kind of good solution ;)
//EDIT: http://www.trader-online.de/turniere...07-01-R15.html
Here are the ratings (and final results), me (Marcel) @ 9th place.
There was - what a pity - no chance for a draw =/
Well, I really like that the discussion goes on as my next tournament is on sunday, 4th February.
There are 2 points that I don't feel comfortable with the traditional build:
1. No acceleration in a 1st turn counter (except Fow ;)) and into early TfK/FoF as they really slap you out of tricky early games
and
2. I don't like the build to rely on only 3-4 FoF as your main card drawing spell (I count Brainstorm and Impulse for CQ/Cantripping).
TfK gives you objective 2 cards, but virtual you gain 3 as you wouldn't have played this late chrome mox or chalice, so it nets you 3 cards at some extent
(hope you understand what I mean =)).
That's exaclty what I think, too:
As C.P. noticed from my MU, the modern build can really wreck any combo (except Solidarity ;)) and handle especially non-goblin aggro much better.
Chalice 1 and Shackles are some kind of Lock against any Threshold version, for example.
Therefore, you have some more disadvantages in the control MU.
That's what I am wondering, too.
At last Germany's Dülmen I've gone with 3 Mox and 4 Chalice.
You do want an early chalice almost every game.
And if it gets countered, you needn't get nervous as there is a good chance of drawing another one.
Krosan Grip even becomes very popular there, so 4 is the right number imho, as it even counts for the artifact count for TfK.
And a Chalice 1 can never be that bad, right? =)
The Mox's acceleration on the one hand was awesome:
It saved me game1 against Goblins as I was able to manaleak the 1st turn Lackey, then playing a 2nd turn TfK getting the Repeal to handle the Vial =)
In some other games, I even longed much more for the vital acceleration.
On the other hand, there was the very unlucky situation where I sat on my seat with 4 cards, 3 of them being Moxen.
But just before losing the game I set up a double TfK for the win ;)
So I think there are more advantages then disadvantages, so I think I will definetely go and test the full playset.
@Fetchlands:
I think it depends on the Manacount.
I played 21 Lands and 3 Moxen. Now I would up the count to 25 adding the 4th Mox.
The modern build even needs much mana for the final Morphling and double EOT FoF action ;)
I woudn't run less then 12 basic Islands, but shuffle effects can't be that bad, I don't know to what extend the thinning effect works.
@ Maximus04:
I would really be pleased to have a look at your list, I'm going to PN you ;)
So far, let the battle begin ;)
Doks
Peter Rotten,
I think 4 Silent Arbiter in the sideboard will go a long way in shoring up the goblins matchup.
All you have to do is use your countermagic to keep the card in play, and you can really set goblins back.
What do you recommend cutting from the sideboard to make this happen?
Also, I just wondering but what advantage does this deck have over landstill. It seems like goblins has similar matchup percentages except that it has a better gameplan against Goblins.
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