I agree, but I'm worried that you will need to dig 4 card in the beginning. All of your draws cost 4 or more if you drop impulse. The deck sometimes need to dig for the Shackles/Keg so it can go to the late game. Brainstorm has anti synergy with the chalice for sure, but dropping impulse and relying on FoF/TfK might be too dangerous. Playing Phid in the chalice/mox buuild is still very interesting, and it is Something I'll test extensively.Originally Posted by Doks
Good luck in your testing.
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
So, I've finished the tournament with an unsatisfactory 32 -.-
I've only played against 1 competitive deck, that was TES (discussed in another thread, just have a look ;)), the rest were some weird random piles, I guess I'll have to visit Germany's Iserlohn as there is a more professional Meta.
The TES-MU ended in a draw as the extra turns were announced when we wanted to start game three.
I lost to a U/G Thresh/Madness-Mix with first turn Mongrel followed by tripple Rancor and second game and to 43-Land-Build with Manabond and couples of Manlands and LftL (<- I hate this card btw as it is with Cyclelands a constant 3:1 trade MUC can't keep up with^^").
As I had the control in the early lategame I did not find my Morphling (they were in the last 5 cards) so I wasn't able to get through the Manlands with my Ophids und Factories.
But I'll now stop complaining and I am going to the more important things:
14 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Factories
2 Morphling
3 Ophidian
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Mana Leak
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Repeal
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Powder Keg
4 Chrome Mox
Right: As I find in the testings, cutting Impulse for Ophidian does not hurt compared with the advantages Phid provides:
1. Modern's Mox makes Ophid fast and effective in every non-pure Aggro-MU.
2. Phid giving Modern a source of constant card drawing, not only relying on spells.
3. Synergy Chalice 1 + Ophid (=Most removal is prevented).
Point 2 is the most important:
I won games with 2 Phids on the board killing my Opponent with pure CA - I was nearly dying as I had very few cards in my Library left ;)
Well, you have the Mox:The deck sometimes need to dig for the Shackles/Keg so it can go to the late game
Very often I had the scenario of T1 Island, Mox -> Counterspell/Chalice, T2 Island, TfK and T3 Island, FoF what mostly turns into surviving the early game.
With 25 Mana Sources, you mostly have 2 in hand and likely draw the 3rd one.
Otherwise, CC2 Counter keep you alive till the 3rd one.
Tfk/FoF are still crucial as Chalice is.
But as Maximus PNed me, I will soon try out B2B main, even with the factories.
And I really want to add a 3rd Morphling.
I lost games as I did not find the needed Morphling which is more than annoying =/
I'll try replacing Delta with Islands too.
Doks
I feel that the Deltas are not needed here. You don't have brainstorm, and Brainstorm + fetch(and impulse in less degree) is why the card is there. I feel that lose of life + danger of stifle overwhelms the advantage of deckthinning.
About the phid, that was why I was defending the space for it in the deck. I still believe that the phid is one of the most important card in the deck.
The third Morphling will turn the deck into more of a aggro control. You will see morphing in your early hand more that you would like. However, since you run pleanty of mana source, you might be able to pull off an aggro morphling wins in most cases.
I was trying simmilar build with 4 factories and 2 B2B main(instesd of repeal), and 4 phid, and It was satisfactory but I felt that the early game can go horribly wrong sometime just beacause you can't play that 2nd mox. I still think the deck needs some cantrips.
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
I used to play a MUC deck that did very well locally (I never entered into a big event, but did play against top decks). But I got extremely bored with it so I switched to solidarity. I just don't have the personality for control. What worked *very* well was the combo of 4 parallax tide and 4 stifle MD. I know it sounds odd, but hear me out.
The strategy was to not play *anything* but counters and draw your first couple turns (no ophidians), and make sure to let the spells through that you can deal with later so you won't be baited to a misplay. Once you made it to your 4th turn you play the tide and wipe out X counters depending on your situation (usually just 3/4 to remove all their lands) After that, if you don't already have the stifle in hand you still have a turn or two to search for it since you will still have a remaining counter on the tide, then just stifle the tide and they have no more lands. I *never* lost a game when tide hit the table. With all the counters they just can't recover, and with their lands gone they really can't counter the stifle.
This is the build as best I remember
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Leak
4 Counterspell
4 Stifle
4 Parallax Tide
4 Impulse
2 Vedalken Shakles
2 ? (opts?)
1 Meloku
1 Masticore
2 Morphling
4 Ophidian
22 Island
2 Quicksand (for the piledriver)
SB
4 (3?) Back to Basics (ruins thresh and landstill)
I can't remember the rest of the SB
That isn't the exact decklist, but the best my memory would permit. One thing to notice is the lack of brainstorm and fetchlands. I started without them since i didn't have the ones on color at the time, but once i started using them i switched back and here is why....consistency. With 4 Tides and 4 Stifles I found it much more consistent to just keep the stack as is and DIG DIG DIG with impulses, opts, and ophidians. If you don't believe me (which i am sure you don't since people's commitment to brainstorm is more dogmatic than anything else, *TEST* it yourself).
Masticore seems a little off, but i would take meloku out before him. He and Ophidian clench the game against just about any deck once you have the tide start (including - and especially - goblins).
Another great aspect of the deck is that it isn't at all dependent on the two card combo. Lone stifle can cripple fragile mana builds on it's on and Tide slowed decks down enough to throw out meloku, morphling, Shackles or whatever, and once those are down with protection it's usually GG.
There was only one reservation I had about the deck. It's power on the play made it seemingly invinciple, but on the draw the game was significaly harder, but certainly winnable. I can't remember how i coped with that in the SB, but there were ways to manage it.
I should add this was a deck i played about 8 months ago and there are cards that can definitely benefit if from the new sets, like teferi in the sb or possibly MD.
But really, the deck is *a lot* stronger than it looks. You should really just test it out.
I am still debating the 4th Chrome Mox but i agree the early acceleration is very important to this deck. I'll test some more and find out, though the deck tends to have more success when you get the the early Chrome Mox out.
Even though Doks has been disagreeing against B2B it should at least be a sideboard option. I still run a random 1 of because of ridiculous terrible match ups like 43-Lands. Though it may be a better sideboard option, its a meta call.
The third repeal or the third morphling? Which one is more important? I can't call, but I think since there is the lack of deep drawing(Impulse) and shuffling techniques(Brainstorm) maybe having a 3rd Morphling is very important since you will have better odds getting one because most of the mid to late game you are just getting stalling till drawing into a Morphling. Meloku(when he was legal during standard) reminded me of Morphling, once you untapped it was like you played the card that says "I win."
Why should the deck have more cantrips? It runs some of the best competitive draw power in MTG and anything that isn't for utility(like kegs, chalices, and shackles) are trying to gain you CA.
Because all the utillity in the deck is 2-ofs, and without cantrips like Brainstorm/Impulse, the 2-of strategy is not as effective as before. Yes, TfK and FoF digs, and they are good, but it is 3/4cc, thus slower than Brainstorm/Impulse. I always felt that those cards justifies the decks 2/2/2 utility split.
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
Of course, I had it in SB ;), but there was no second match to use it =/Even though Doks has been disagreeing against B2B it should at least be a sideboard option. I still run a random 1 of because of ridiculous terrible match ups like 43-Lands. Though it may be a better sideboard option, its a meta call.
My SB was:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
3 Arcane Laboratory
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Powder Keg
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Repeal
The thing is: in about half the games B2B would have been very useful MB, but in the other half totally useless.
That is not the problem because of pitching it to Mox/FoW or discard it with TfK, but the thing is:
It can be a dead card Mainboard that takes space for other cards who are not this MU-specific.
Repeal vs. Morphling:
I really like Repeal as a 3-of:
It bounces nearly whole Legacy, even Eternal Dragons and full grown Exalted Angels.
But its more important job is to deal Needle, Werebear, Vial, BTS - all the problems that may resolve too early so you deal with them the traditional way: Bounce -> Counter.
And this while slowing them down without any card disadvantage.
Well, and this was the way I won 2 whole rounds by just going for the early Morphling - where early means with 8-9 Sources of Mana ;)The third Morphling will turn the deck into more of a aggro control. You will see morphing in your early hand more that you would like. However, since you run pleanty of mana source, you might be able to pull off an aggro morphling wins in most cases.
Many decks just loose to a resolved Morphling without any chance as they don't run Mass Removal or are not able to force it through.
And if I had that damn Morphling earlier I would have even beaten the 43-Land deck =/
And with 3, it does not hurt imprinting it to Mox or pitching it to the FoW as it was for me when I had one in my opening hand.
Doks
By early morphling I meant with 5-6 mana source for the win.I forgot about the fact that the mordern version uses more ways of ditching a dead card. 3 Morphlings sound pretty viable in that way. About B2B, it gets almost half of the field(even goblins lose their Port/Splash Duals) and with all that Mox/FoW, I don't think you will have problem of having a dead one in hand.
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
And this are the reasons why I'll try some MB, too. Guess you convinced me ;)
I never could imagine playing MUC without B2B at least Sideboard.
I know how strong the card can be, but I doubted it strength MB. I think I will have to rethink something.
And I'm going to look for the 3rd Morphling.
Now there's the question: what to cut?
There are some kind of staples that I really do not want to touch.
Let's wait and see.
Doks
I built my entire version of MUC around abusing B2B and found that it crushed the matchups that mattered and was inefficient in the ones you lose anyway. The philosophy I was operating under was that unless I wanted to make 6/8 matchups suck for the sake of the other two, which aren't even that popular, I would just optimalize the 6/8 matchups and hope for the best.
As testing went on it became clear the B2B reams Thresh, 3 color control, Rock esque crap, decks with Rishadan Port/Manlands (read 43 lands, Loam, Goblins, ect), and more or less anyone that leads with duals against you.
Obviously, in some metagames this isn't a viable strategy because you can't assume there's going to be decks that B2B is effective against, but then again, how likely is it that the field is going to made up by mono-colored decks in the majority? Hell, I went 5-0-1 in a local tournament after playing against San Diego Zoo 3 times and raping with B2B after stabilizing with Shackles and Keg.
In the modern build, which I haven't really tested, I have no idea what you would cut to add B2B to either the mainboard or the sideboard, but my advice is to look long and hard at the Arcane Labs in the Sideboard and decide whether they're worth it or not.
Space is really a problem:
The only cards I could imagine to cut are:
1 Mana Source (rather a land than a Mox i guess)
1 Repeal (even if I am really not convinced)
1 Counter (would be Mana Leak, but then the Mox looses strength)
1 Chalice (would be the same with the Leak)
Therefore, I'd like to squeeze in 1 Morphling/1Ophidian and at least 1 B2B, preferably 2 B2B.
Do you think there is the possibility of weakening the artifact-theme in Modern (means -1 Chalice, -1 Mox, -1 TfK) to make room for other important cards?
Doks
I've been testing my moden build, and I did not like it.
The first problem was that there was too few blue card to make mox/FoW matter. I ran 25 mana source like Doks, and found myself to be mana flooded. cutting an island would not be a problem. When I was playing the deck, the problems that I was worried about occured. The first one was that 2/2/2 split was not effective anymore, and my utillity cards were not showing up as much as I would like. THer other one was that if you did not see the TfK, you will have to let a very critical thereat or two resolve. Other than that, the deck worked fine. It's solidarity matchup was better than the traditional version, since it ran 4 maindeck chalice.
Still, I'm thinking about going back to the old traditional with some tech to beat solidarity. The older version was more of an all-round control, which I liked quite a bit.
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
Well, I don't see the problem here:The first one was that 2/2/2 split was not effective anymore, and my utillity cards were not showing up as much as I would like.
In my experience, that one card Impulse digs deeper than TfK does not matter in most cases.
I assume with Utility you mean: Keg/Shackles/B2B, right?
At which point of the game do you want to see them that early that Impulse is the card that would give them to you?
The time you can play TfK instead of Impulse, TfK is almost always better as it can create CA and at least gives CQ.
And Impulse doesn't even guarantee you the Utility you're searching for.
For example, an unlucky shuffle and both the B2B are in the lower half of the deck.
And what do you mean with
?THer other one was that if you did not see the TfK, you will have to let a very critical thereat or two resolve
Being out of answers is always critical, but I don't know how TfK is guilty for that.
I was in hurry to write it, so I guess I had not made my point well.
With Brain + fetch + Impulse, you get to see a fair share of your deck. As many people can tell us, Brain + Fetch provides amaging CQ. Impulse also surves the function as well. with 4+ fetches, you can minimize the effect of unlucky shuffle as well. Tfk digs for three. It is an amaging card, but as far as digging is concerned, it is not all that better than impulse. So without this early card cycle, you look lees of your deck than the trad. build.
And with Mox + FoW, the card disadvantage was too great. Only way of solve the problem is TfK or FoF, which cost 3/4. So you end up having less cards then your opponent, which was not that great. Phid, FoF, TfK sheres a weakness: it is slow. And if you don;t hav the early game, you will not get to have a late game.
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
Now I get it =)
Well, obviously this is right.
I think this is how these two decks differ:
Traditional uses Card selecting in the slots where Modern uses its "Lock"-Components like Chalice and its acceleration in form of Mox.
So this ends up in Modern relying on strong, but late CA and Traditional using Card selecting and a weaker drawengine.
This is why you play the Mox - all these cards are much stronger when they come down 1 turn earlier.Phid, FoF, TfK sheres a weakness: it is slow
Maybe one could try a version which combines both advantages.
http://mtgsalvation.com/10-the-basic...in-legacy.html
Maybe something oriented on the BBS list unter point 5, second deck?
Doks
You must be joking if you're trying to say that the BBS in that article is way too go...lol
I think the version that we should follow is T1 BBS. Yes, we do not have man drain, but BBS with FoF strongly resembles the deck that we are making.
So some basic lines that I see.
'Modern' Versions have a lock components, and artifact reliant. Random artifact hate can hurt the deck quite a bit. (I played against a deck that runs maindeck Null Rod. It was not funny)
2/2/2 split is not very effective in a way that the deck goes for more of an card volume than card quality.
More blue cards are required, since almost half of the deck is colorless.
Some possible solutions.
1. Put more accelerations and turn the deck into accelerated blue. Well, We do not have grim monolith anymore.
2. Just up the blue count and stick to what we have. Utility slot will have change, but other plans stay as it is
What do you think?
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
To me, it makes sense for the deck to stick close to the build that had far and away the most success in this format...
Monoblue Control
A Legacy deck, by Glenn Anderson
5th place at a StarCityGames Duel for Duals tournament in Roanoke, Virginia, United States on 2006-10-08
Maindeck:
Artifacts
2 Powder Keg
2 Vedalken Shackles
Creatures
2 Morphling
4 Ophidian
Enchantments
2 Back To Basics
Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Fact Or Fiction
4 Force Of Will
3 Force Spike
3 Impulse
4 Mana Leak
Lands
15 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Quicksand
Sideboard:
3 Chalice Of The Void
2 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Hydroblast
2 Repeal
I could see an arguement for cutting Brainstorm and Force Spike for Chalice of the Void (to help versus combo, Thres, Red Death and a lot of other decks that have gotten very popular recently) and making up for the loss of card draw by playing an additional Impulse and Fact of Fiction
But beyond possibly...
-4 Brainstorm
-3 Force Spike
+4 Chalice of the Void
+1 Impulse
+1 Fact or Fiction
+1 Veldalken Shackles/Island/Powder Keg/Morphling
I don't think any other changes are really worth it.
Chrome Mox is nice, but it is very bad card disadvantage for an effect no where near as important as Force of Will.
But that's just my personal opinion.
Just to let you know, the list above was discussed throughly and the changes you have made was discussed as well.
Chalice is a proactive card. It is useless once that 1cc threat resolves and hit the board. the only way of preventing it is to put it down as fast as possible. That's why the mox build uses the card. In traditional build(refers to the build above, and I myself is quite the defender of the build as opposed to newer build with mox), chalice is slow and not dependable. Force Spike in the deck is a way of dealing with early threat, along with FoW. If you want to give the same role to the chalice, then you need to play the chalice as soon as possible.
Some people already went through this, but 4th FoF is very suboptimal. you have it stuck in your hand way to much. being able to tab 4 mana is not something that happens often. FoF is amazing, but we have to play fair(read: no Mana Drain) and tap 4 lands for it. 4th copy is win more card in the late game and does not really help you going through the late game.
if you're going to stick with the trad. build, chalice should stay in the sideboard. Chaice = Mox in MUC.
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
The changes you've recommended have been tested ad nauseum, as C.P. pointed out, and believe me, Chalice without mox absolutely sucks. You NEVER tap out on turn two for a sorcery speed "proactive" (I say this because on turn two it's likely the threat you wanted to stop has already resolved) defense that won't save you from the 2cc threat you would've otherwise countered. Once you start playing Chalice later than turn 2 you're playing it far too late to be relevant.
However, there is something I will argue heavily for, and that is the fourth FoF. You can call it whatever you like, unnecessary, too expensive, ect, but the fact of the matter is that card wins game. It allows you to play Chrome Mox and Force of Will in the same deck and not kill yourself through card disadvantage. It lets you go all out to stop your opponents early game and still have a late game to back it up. I'm not just waxing lyrical either, I've been testing my build in tournaments, testing sessions, what have you, for around half a year now, and I still say the biggest innovation that made the deck better was cutting Brainstorm to add in the fourth Impulse and the fourth Fact or Fiction.
Calling the fourth Fact or Fiction a win more card is really misusing the term "win more". Resolving a FoF in a situation where you death isn't already on the board can swing a game dramatically. I've beaten Thresh almost entirely off getting 4 for 1s out of FoF, and that's after using perhaps multiple counterspells protecting that FoF. Yes, if you resolve 4 Facts in a game you'd probably have won without the 4th of them, but the same is true for arguably any of them past the first (the second is debateable depending on the matchup, but if you resolve a THIRD FoF in a game you might as well have already won). Does that mean you should only run one? Of course not. It's a card you want resolve as often as possible, and is absolutely crucial to this decks gameplan of dealing with the card disadvantage of things like FoW and Chrome Mox.
As far as a 2/2/2 split between B2B, Keg, and Shackles it should look something like this 3/3/2, with the numbers on B2B and Shackles depending on the metagame. If you expect more aggro-control and control (think Thresh/Hanni Fish and Landstill type stuff) you want 3 B2B, because that card either singlehandedly ruins their gameplans, or severely impedes them. If you expect more Goblins and mid-range aggro you want the third Shackles instead, because Shackles makes your mid to late game that much better and two of them active at the same time can easily end the game against any aggro.
One thing I would like to test more extensively with anyone who's got the time is Rune Snag vs. Mana Leak. Without getting too deep into it I can say that they both have strengths and weaknesses, and as far as I can tell there has been very little testing to attempt to figure out which is more optimal in this style of deck. It may not be that important, but identifying what are the necessary and unnecessary evils in a deck is the best way to improve it, which is what we should be aiming to do here.
I once tried rune snag in place of Mana leak, and concluded it to be suboptimal. In the early game, especailly aginst midrange aggro contorol decks, having 2 mana open is not a problem. Rune Snag start to suck earlier than Mana leak, and that difference is usually crucial. Thresh or Fish can have 4 or 3 mana easily, but not their 5th mana. After they achieve that crucial threshold(not the game mechanic), RS is better, but somtimes that difference cost you the game. Even against goblins, Difference between 2 and 3 Mana open is crucial and the cost is high, usually letting a Warchief or Ringleader resolve.
Still, Mana Leak suck after that phase. So my soluton was to run a singleton Forbid. It is much better than what everyone thinks, for sure.
About that 4th FoF, I find that when I can saftly resolve the card, I tend to have the card anyway, so I think 4th one is overkill.
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
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