[OLD] UGr Threshold

[jwludyka]

how unbelievable.

first of all, everything the last two posters have said is in fact, wrong.

fire ice is a great card in this deck and provides tons of flexibility. ugr is much more aggressive than ugw and therefore both ends of the card do much in racing and clearing paths vs. goblins and mother of runes. how can magma freaking jet even be compared? for some reason most legacy players are obsessed with scrying over actual card power.

wee dragonauts? how awful. he benefits huge amounts of cards late game, and in which case you're winning anyway or dryad just would have been more efficient. laf

counterspell? equally awful in ugr. like i said, it's so much more aggressive that ugw. how could you possibly want this card in the mirror? to stop their mystic enforcers? this deck is aggressive, and therefore taps out on its turn often unlike ugw that sit behind a nimble mongoose. paul beat down with this deck and accumulated numerous turn 5-6 kills

i've never understood the obsession with these awful card quality enhancing cards. this is a format where you can play 4 LED and you want to play 1 mana scry 2 draw a card. nice format

this leads me nicely into my next point. this gp was a joke and a disgrace for the legacy community and its fanatics. you sure talk a great game, but how many dedicated legacy players t8'd? huh, interesting. so you forum idiots can sit and talk like you know what you're doing, but in reality you're contributions are meaningless and your words worthless.

that is all

[Citrus-God]

how unbelievable.

first of all, everything the last two posters have said is in fact, wrong.

fire ice is a great card in this deck and provides tons of flexibility. ugr is much more aggressive than ugw and therefore both ends of the card do much in racing and clearing paths vs. goblins and mother of runes.

What is the point of racing what wasnt even there when a SCG, Ringleader, and Warcheif have already resolved?

Doesnt matter. Needles already do something Fire // Ice cant do. Answer Jitte, Mother of Runes, AEther Vial, etc, etc.

And this deck is not more aggressive than UGw Threshold, and isnt even more different. I'm sure you've heard of Bardo.

Also, doesnt Pyroclasm accomplish the same thing as Burn against Goblins?

how can magma freaking jet even be compared? for some reason most legacy players are obsessed with scrying over actual card power.

So drawing a blind card is better than drawing a card that does something? Card Quality is probably the most important thing this deck has.

counterspell? equally awful in ugr.

Get over that awful mentality that colors determine how aggressive a deck is, it's the way to deck is built and designed, so in that case, it's Mental Note that makes it aggressive.

Even Bardo wanted to drop Counterspell for a long time. I had no objections to that option.

like i said, it's so much more aggressive that ugw. how could you possibly want this card in the mirror? to stop their mystic enforcers?

Yes, and you know what? When up against another aggressive deck, in this case, Bardo's deck, if they get that Enforcer out on turn 4, you're screwed.

You want Counterspell in the mirror so you dont lose the board domination war. Now with Tarmogoyf, I think Counterspell is becoming more imporant than ever.

this deck is aggressive, and therefore taps out on its turn often unlike ugw that sit behind a nimble mongoose. paul beat down with this deck and accumulated numerous turn 5-6 kills

I think your kills were consistent, not because of F/I, but because of Dryad and Lightning Bolt(s).

So does Bardo's deck. That awful looking thing beats down and wins turn 5-6 without burn consistently (thank you Goyf).

Also, not all UGw decks stand back and defend. It's only the Hatfield variant, and it probably pumps out answers and threats so well, you'd lose all your men by then, and being beaten down by a countless number of men no matter how many times you answer them. Just to make it look pathetic, it runs cards like Portent and Predict.

Edit. Actually, Hatfield Thresh doesnt even stand back and defend. What it does is trade creatures, and counters w/e you're about to play, and then finish it off with a resolved Enforcer.

i've never understood the obsession with these awful card quality enhancing cards. this is a format where you can play 4 LED and you want to play 1 mana scry 2 draw a card. nice format

In Vintage, you have access to so many broken cards, and yet, you playing shitty cards like Ichorid. Nice format.

I dont see Fire // Ice finding Force of Will, Daze, and Stifle.

Also, you think our format is so fast, and you question why we run cards that provide card quality? Such a simple question. The more cards you look at, the more likely you'll use what you need to win. In this case, we're actually looking for cards we need and denying dead cards in those MUs rather than investing more mana and drawing those cards.

this leads me nicely into my next point. this gp was a joke and a disgrace for the legacy community and its fanatics. you sure talk a great game, but how many dedicated legacy players t8'd? huh, interesting. so you forum idiots can sit and talk like you know what you're doing, but in reality you're contributions are meaningless and your words worthless.

No, this GP, we didnt get enough Legacy regulars up there because of Flash. We did influence the entire design though for the Flash decks. We werent up there because a lot of them didnt go because of Flash. If the meta remained as the Thresh/Goblins metagame, I know that the sourcers would do very well.

GP Philly, we had tons of Sourcers Top 8. We had Ben Goodman, Pat McGregor, and Tom Smart who is incorporated with pros with Legacy knowledge like Gerry Thompson (Who is here as GThompson and has tons of knowledge about our format), and such. Again, we influenced deckbuilding in that Top 8. Threshold was founded in Virginia and Minnesota (where Jesse River and Pat McGregor made UGR Thresh). David Gearhart also made 9th with Solidarity.

[kicks_422]

@jwludyka: Nice way to introduce yourself to the Source.

Fire/Ice is good, but Magma Jet is better. Wee Dragonauts just KILLS. Like Anti-American said, just because the deck has red doesnt mean it's as aggressive as Goblins.

[Liek]

I guess I have to say something. Joshie's post was a little rude.

1) Fire Ice, Magma Jet, Lightning Bolt.

Clearly the deck needs to have Lightning Bolt as it removes a Goblin Lackey on the first turn. 4 are needed to ensure that it takes place. After that, another burn spell is good to have. However, comparing Magma Jet to Fire/Ice is silly, Magma Jet should be compared to Lightning Bolt (where Bolt is better in every way imaginable.) Despite all of this, you all want to compare Jet to FI. I'll list each card's advantages over the other.

Fire/Ice:
-Blue (Force of Will.)
-Removes two 1 toughness creatures (Fish: Mother, Confidant. BW: Nantuko Shade, Confidant. Goblins: Lots of them. Red Deck: everything.)
-Sends one damage to a guy, one to the opponent. Every point makes them closer to dead.
-Can tap a large monster to push damage through (Loxodon Heirarch, I played against him. Also played against Exalted Angel.)
-Taps one Mishra's Factory on end step to prevent it from pumping another.
-Numerous other FLEXIBLE uses, far more than 2 mana 2 damage can provide.

Magma Jet:
-Scry for 2.

There was no comparison for me when I was building and testing, I never considered playing Magma Jet at all. I always cut it from Extended decks, so I didn't even bother trying it here.

2) Creatures

-Nimble Mongoose: obv.
-Werebear: Fits Nimble Mongoose's plan, taps for mana, beats.
-Quirion Dryad: Gets large, fits with Werebear and Mongoose's theme, gets large.
-Serendib Efreet: It's blue, but ultimately got cut because it always got STP'd at a horrible tempo loss (I'm the tempo deck!)
-Fledging Dragon: Never tested it, never even considered it. If a Wasteland takes down a red land it's extremely difficult to cast, let alone activate. Also very bad against STP.
-Tarmogoyph: Obviously I couldn't play this card. No enchantment or artifact in the deck. I'd like to see a decklist that can get it to maximum without relying on opponent's cards to do it. Also can't tap for G. If a deck were made to fully utilize it, Mental Note would be insane with it. However, I know nothing about what happens post FS, I've been working on formats that have events in the near future.
-Wee Dragonauts: Goblin Piledriver would like to have a word. Anyways, it seems really weak. I already have a problem with 3+ drops getting STPd at a horrible tempo loss. When adding some mainphase cantriping for the purpose of pumping this guy, we lose more tempo to a removal spell. Sounds bad.

3) Cantrips

-Brainstorm: The best card in the format.
-Serum Visions: Throughout the tournament, I was thoroughly unimpressed by this card. I didn't question its inclusion because every fucking fish/threshold deck in Legacy plays 4, but as I played with it, I was hating its lack of synergy with Mental Note. The only time I liked the card was when my opening hand contained one land and it, and I found the land with it (or scryed both to the bottom, then drew a land off the top.) Basically, this card seemed exceptionally weak at all points and I never really enjoyed having/casting it.
-Mental Note: This card was really good. Anything that combos with Brainstorm is automatically good, and the "getting threshold" part is gravy. Insane.

The ones I didn't play: Portent, Predict, Sleight of Hand

-Portent: This card isn't good. It's way worse than Serum Visions and I don't even like that card. I don't see how anybody plays this card, it's the clunkiest.
-Predict: Cute with Brainstorm and Serum Visions, or their Mystical Tutor, but I didn't play it because it's a 2 mana spell that doesn't egffect the board, and it doesn't even draw as many cards as Brainstorm.
-Sleight of Hand: Maybe in Standard Dragonstorm decks. This is an Eternal format.

4) Disruption

-Force of Will: Playing four.
-Stifle: This being a tempo deck, I decided to start testing with 3 of these. Then I realized that this was the single best card I could draw against Flash, the single best way to tempo out Goblins, and was useful in some capacity against every other deck, I went up to 4. With or without Flash in the format I wouldn't play less than 4.
-Spell Snare: This card is awesome, but I ultimately couldn't fit it maindeck. It was really good for me the whole tournament, though.
-Daze: This card is pretty good. It's easy to play around, but gets harder to play around when I have 2-3 gigantic monsters in play. I played 3.
-Pithing Needle: Decent, but not great, against most decks. Strong against Crucible decks and slow cards like Pernicious Deed. Proactive disruption against Kiki-Jiki Flash decks. I was happy with having one maindeck, I believe I won 3 game 1s where I played the Needle and stopped something important. 2 was a good number to have postboard, only once did I ever want to have more.

-Counterspell: I'm certain most of you will disagree with me about this one. The ideal amount of lands in play with this deck is 2 or 3. Every turn I used all of my mana, at most I'd leave 1 up to Stifle something or Brainstorm. If I ever had more than 3 lands in play, it meant that Serum Visions drew me a land (I hate when that happens, so annoying that my card selection spell draws a blind card off the top...) or I Brainstormed into lands when I was already holding lands. Basically, I never wanted more than 3 lands in play, and never would want to leave up 2 mana when I pass. Also, this card is slow. I want to win fast.

5) Other cards:

-Krosan Grip: I wasn't sure this would be any good, but it turned out to be nuts. Not only can it kill random enchantments like Leyline or Worship, it gives me a card to beat Fish's best card. Fish's only edges over me are Mother of Runes and Umezawa's Jitte. Many of my other cards deal with Mother, and I have Needles and Spell Snares to handle Jittes. The main problem with that plan is that if Fish wants to win with Jitte, the only thing they need to do is ensure the Jitte works, by holding their Force of Will and only using it on things that go after the Jitte (and by using Meddling Mage to protect it as well.) Krosan Grip was great here. Jitte would hit me once or even twice, and Grip takes it down, through their Force of Will, and they can't use counters they've saved up. If this card was in Standard when Jitte was, people wouldn't have complained about Jitte as much as they did.
-Pyroclasm: So insane. Casting this with a Mongoose in play is the best. This card was what made me 3-0 against Goblins in the swiss. Also got me through Slivers in round 10 and Fish in round 7. Also worked against a Zoo deck in round 13. So good.

6) Thoughts about the deck.

The reason I went with this rather than Fish or white threshold was that it played a much more aggressive game than either of those decks. Quirion Dryad led me to this, as it was always enormous in testing and killed very quickly. After a turn 4 kill against goblins, I knew this deck was better than the white one. It was simple, the closer they are to dead, the harder the tempo cards hit them. The lower their life total, and the bigger my guys are, the harder it is for them to get back into games they are behind in.

The next part is also something that seems simple to me, Lightning Bolt. I hate how ugw/fish's removal spell is Swords to Plowshares. I can't stand giving my opponent life when I'm trying to kill them with the combat step. Plow your Warchief, attack for 2, play 2/1 or 2/2, it's so weak. Lightning Bolt is killing the same stuff the STPs are killing, so honestly, what's the difference? Sure, Lightning Bolt can't take down bigger things, but Threshold doesn't win the long game against anything, its cards are too weak. STPing random Goblins isn't helping anything, if the clock isn't fast enough they will reach their midgame and blowout the Fish/thresh deck with insane production. It seems so basic to me. Plow and Bolt kill the same guys, one of the two spells both doesn't give them extra life and can go to their face. For the purposes I want it for, it's better in every way. Also, Lightning Bolt was pretty good against flash decks because Kiki-Jiki's ability is red, so if Bodyguard wants to stop a Bolt, it's also going to stop Kiki's ability.

So those are my thoughts on things about this deck related to the grand prix. Maybe this whole post was a waste of time, since it seems like this thread it talking about post-future sight, post-b/r announcement, but I decided to try to clear some stuff up from the last few posts here.

[Hanni]

Fire/Ice:
-Blue (Force of Will.)
-Removes two 1 toughness creatures (Fish: Mother, Confidant. BW: Nantuko Shade, Confidant. Goblins: Lots of them. Red Deck: everything.)
-Sends one damage to a guy, one to the opponent. Every point makes them closer to dead.
-Can tap a large monster to push damage through (Loxodon Heirarch, I played against him. Also played against Exalted Angel.)
-Taps one Mishra's Factory on end step to prevent it from pumping another.
-Numerous other FLEXIBLE uses, far more than 2 mana 2 damage can provide.

Magma Jet:
-Scry for 2.

Fire//Ice is more versatile in that it can do more things. It's like a Jack of All Trades, Master of None. 1R for a 1/1 split or 1U to tap a permanent and draw a card is all versatile, but not very strong. Magma Jet's direct damage ability isn't as effecient as Fire and it's Scry ability doesn't actually draw a card like Ice, but it does BOTH of those and not just one or the other. One major concept of Threshold is that it runs alot of cantrip to increase card quality. Card quality is a huge aspect of Threshold that makes the deck function so well. Magma Jet doesn't replace itself but the Scry 2 ability makes sure the card quality is constantly good. Since the red splash has access to Magma Jet, it can run them as additional cantrip rather than Predict.

Hatfield Thresh cantrip base:

Brainstorm
Serum Visions
Portent
Predict

Red Thresh cantrip base:

Brainstorm
Serum Visions
Mental Note
Magma Jet

That's basically how I look at it. Magma Jet isn't as powerful as Predict in terms of card advantage but it doubles over as removal or reach.

-Wee Dragonauts: Goblin Piledriver would like to have a word. Anyways, it seems really weak. I already have a problem with 3+ drops getting STPd at a horrible tempo loss. When adding some mainphase cantriping for the purpose of pumping this guy, we lose more tempo to a removal spell. Sounds bad.

Wee Dragonauts is a personal preference. Alot of people think it's terrible. I don't. I don't see how Goblin Piledriver being problue is relevant to the function of Wee Dragonauts. Why would you want to block Piledriver when you run a ton of burn spells and other creatures that can block if need be? Dragonauts has Flying... Piledriver can't block flying. Evasion is pretty important for beating Goblins if you haven't played Pyroclasm... tons of chump blockers prevent Mongooses and such from pushing damage through. I like Wee Dragonauts because it increases the potential for turn 4-5 goldfishes, which improves the fast aggro matchup (like Goblins) as well as combo matchups. I treat Dragonauts as my red splash Mystic Enforcer... except it costs 1 less, it includes my main color of blue (which also happens to pitch to FoW), isn't dependant on Threshold, and can potentially swing for more. Oftentimes when you play Dragonauts, the next turn he swings for lethal. In the same vein, it is vulnerable to removal like StP. Like I said, it all comes down to personal preference.

---

jwludyka... and obviously you know everything and everyone else is stupid.

how can magma freaking jet even be compared? for some reason most legacy players are obsessed with scrying over actual card power.

How is Fire//Ice that powerful? Is splitting the Fire damage 1/1 THAT important? I'd rather just keep the damage together for 1 target AND Scry 2 cards. That's seems alot more powerful to me. Why are we obsessed with Scrying (and card quality in general)? Because, it means we are drawing relevant cards that ensure we remain in control of the gamestate. How much do you actually know about aggro/control in Legacy?

wee dragonauts? how awful. he benefits huge amounts of cards late game, and in which case you're winning anyway or dryad just would have been more efficient. laf

Laf. Yes, let's topdeck a Dryad because a 1/1 for 1G is so effecient. That must be why every Threshold list in the past couple of years has run Werebear instead of Dryad. I like Dryad, especially in the red version because of it's strength in the mirror, but it's an awful topdeck later on. I cannot seem to understand how Dragonauts is win-more. Explain? From my experience, Dragonauts is the complete opposite of win-more. You topdeck him and just win out of nowhere. It's like a combo-esque kill... you play him, the opponent looks at you like your a noob, and then you swing with a 9/3 flyer next turn ftw. GG. Laf.

counterspell? equally awful in ugr. like i said, it's so much more aggressive that ugw. how could you possibly want this card in the mirror? to stop their mystic enforcers? this deck is aggressive, and therefore taps out on its turn often unlike ugw that sit behind a nimble mongoose. paul beat down with this deck and accumulated numerous turn 5-6 kills

Yes, because you're obviously going to goldfish turn 5-6 every game. Especially against decks that counter your key spells and stuff. I mean, obviously the 4-8 extra burn spells you're running automatically makes your deck goldfish so fast that you don't need Counterspell. Because the deck is so aggressive. Why would you want to counter a spell with UU when you're deck is aggressive. I mean, you have such a large threat density that leaving UU open is almost always impossible to do. Laf.

i've never understood the obsession with these awful card quality enhancing cards.

The why in the fucking hell are you posting in the Threshold thread? /quit_magic

this is a format where you can play 4 LED and you want to play 1 mana scry 2 draw a card. nice format

Interestingly enough, decks running Serum Visions tend to have favorable matchups against decks running 4 LED's. How unusual.

so you forum idiots can sit and talk like you know what you're doing, but in reality you're contributions are meaningless and your words worthless.

LMAO... /quit_magic pls

[Solpugid]

I've actually become very fond of running a Hatfield-esque red build. That is, 4 brainstorm, 4 serum visions, 4 magma jet, 3 portent, and 4 predict. Here it should be obvious that magma jet is superior to fire//ice AND that the red build can run a slower, more controlling game (my build has 3 counterspells to prevent larger or burn-proof creatures from seeing play when I can't handle them).

Every time I test more aggressive builds (i.e. mental note) I've been less than satisfied, and this is especially true with the red build. I'd rather have the option to have actual card advantage in this deck, but I understand that that may be a side effect of play style.

As for Sourcers doing poorly at the GP, I would strongly disagree. Because there is a large amount of luck in large tournaments (good draws, good matchups, etc.) you can't always expect the best players to top 8. However, you can expect them to do better than the average player. This is exactly what happened, with a disproportionately large number of Sourcers making day 2.

[Liek]

How is Fire//Ice that powerful? Is splitting the Fire damage 1/1 THAT important? I'd rather just keep the damage together for 1 target AND Scry 2 cards. That's seems alot more powerful to me. Why are we obsessed with Scrying (and card quality in general)? Because, it means we are drawing relevant cards that ensure we remain in control of the gamestate. How much do you actually know about aggro/control in Legacy?

Yes, splitting the damage is important. I won a lot of games by burning my opponents, Fire dealing 1 to a guy and 1 to them is strong. I also shot two guys with Fire several times. I only cast Ice two or three times, but I pitched Fire/Ice to Force of Will many times.

Scrying to "remain in control" is silly, this deck is a beatdown deck, we don't take control, we win before they can take control. Threshold's cards are very weak, I was always the beatdown role and my plan was always to win before my opponents starting doing powerful things.

Let's be honest here, Threshold's single most powerful play is to Brainstorm then activate a fetchland. And most of the other decks also get to do that. Overall, threshold's cards are very weak. All of the good cards we have are also in our opponent's decks (Force of Will, Brainstorm.) When I played the deck, the longer any game went, the better my opponent's chances of winning were. This was especially true against Goblins and Crucible decks. Threshold has no late game, it has to win before the opponent gets to their late game (or in some cases, their midgame.)

Josh's initial post was rude, but was a rude response necessary? Telling him to "/quit_magic" is ridiculous and mean. Is it logical to ban someone for making a rude first post, then reply to him in an equally rude manner, when he can't reply to defend himself? And most of the stuff he said was right, he just said it in an exceptionally asshole-ish way. While I don't support telling people that their "contributions are meaningless and your words worthless," I do agree with a lot of what he said. Anyways, we can probably resolve this without any additional rudeness.

[Citrus-God]

I guess I have to say something. Joshie's post was a little rude.

Glad you're taking this in a very responsible matter.

1) Fire Ice, Magma Jet, Lightning Bolt.

Clearly the deck needs to have Lightning Bolt as it removes a Goblin Lackey on the first turn. 4 are needed to ensure that it takes place. After that, another burn spell is good to have. However, comparing Magma Jet to Fire/Ice is silly, Magma Jet should be compared to Lightning Bolt (where Bolt is better in every way imaginable.) Despite all of this, you all want to compare Jet to FI. I'll list each card's advantages over the other.

No, we're comparing Magma Jet to Fire // Ice. It's all a matter of card quality v.s. card advantage. Burn is useless in a metagame full of Combo.... though I do see Fire // Ice being better as it piches to FoW and still kills Xantid Swarms.

Fire/Ice:
-Blue (Force of Will.)

Good argument.

-Removes two 1 toughness creatures (Fish: Mother, Confidant. BW: Nantuko Shade, Confidant. Goblins: Lots of them. Red Deck: everything.)

Magam Jet does this, and still let's you see a card.

-Sends one damage to a guy, one to the opponent. Every point makes them closer to dead.

Shouldnt matter when you have guys with the average stats of 3/3-X/X

-Can tap a large monster to push damage through (Loxodon Heirarch, I played against him. Also played against Exalted Angel.)

Decent argument, consdering Red has problems with big creatures, but Counterspell would've answered these creatures in the first place.

-Taps one Mishra's Factory on end step to prevent it from pumping another.

When you can kill the Factory in response to the pump.

-Numerous other FLEXIBLE uses, far more than 2 mana 2 damage can provide.

I admit, stealing your opponent's 2nd/3rd turn is rather vital. I see this move being decent against Goblins unless Vial resolves.

Magma Jet:
-Scry for 2.

I agree with Brassman; 3 random cards off a Recall isnt as good as finding a bomb via Tutor.

There was no comparison for me when I was building and testing, I never considered playing Magma Jet at all. I always cut it from Extended decks, so I didn't even bother trying it here.

Because card quality dont matter in decks that are currently running Magma Jet. I dont even see Magma Jet being good in Boros/Domain Zoo because every card it draws is going to be the same anyways. Magma Jet, in that case, is good in this deck because it utilizes different things, meaning you reject the things you dont need, such as Burn.

2) Creatures

-Nimble Mongoose: obv.

Agreed.

-Werebear: Fits Nimble Mongoose's plan, taps for mana, beats.

Good enough.

-Quirion Dryad: Gets large, fits with Werebear and Mongoose's theme, gets large.

Just a bad topdeck as a con.

-Serendib Efreet: It's blue, but ultimately got cut because it always got STP'd at a horrible tempo loss (I'm the tempo deck!)

Counterspell would've protected the poor thing....

-Fledging Dragon: Never tested it, never even considered it. If a Wasteland takes down a red land it's extremely difficult to cast, let alone activate. Also very bad against STP.

Big fliers only work when the deck has Counterspells and tons of control.

-Tarmogoyph: Obviously I couldn't play this card. No enchantment or artifact in the deck. I'd like to see a decklist that can get it to maximum without relying on opponent's cards to do it. Also can't tap for G. If a deck were made to fully utilize it, Mental Note would be insane with it.

Sorcery, Instants, Creatures, Lands. It's going to be 4/5 average, going to 6/7 or 7/8 against certain decks.

3) Cantrips

-Brainstorm: The best card in the format.

Agreement there.

-Serum Visions: Throughout the tournament, I was thoroughly unimpressed by this card. I didn't question its inclusion because every fucking fish/threshold deck in Legacy plays 4, but as I played with it, I was hating its lack of synergy with Mental Note. The only time I liked the card was when my opening hand contained one land and it, and I found the land with it (or scryed both to the bottom, then drew a land off the top.) Basically, this card seemed exceptionally weak at all points and I never really enjoyed having/casting it.

Then you do not understand why Turbo Xerox did so well, and probably did not understand why the Threshold decks at GP Philly did so well. They did well because they made up for their lack of pure card advantage for card quality.

The only time you should ever like that card is if you accept the philosophy of the deck. I doubt you will do well with any Vintage deck, Stax, Red Death, and Faerie Stompy if you do not accept the philosophy of the deck. If you do not like the philosophy, just cut the Visions and claim a new deck is being made with Mental Note. I dont think you can call this ThreshGro if you cut the Visions.

-Mental Note: This card was really good. Anything that combos with Brainstorm is automatically good, and the "getting threshold" part is gravy. Insane.

Cant say much there.

The ones I didn't play: Portent, Predict, Sleight of Hand

I dont blame you. A lot of people dont know how to play those cards correctly when they're new to the format.

-Portent: This card isn't good. It's way worse than Serum Visions and I don't even like that card. I don't see how anybody plays this card, it's the clunkiest.

Again, you must accept the philosophy of the deck. It's probably one of the best cards yet. It abuses Daze and FoW first turn like no other deck in the format, and doesnt make you draw dead like Brainstorm if you played it first turn.

-Predict: Cute with Brainstorm and Serum Visions, or their Mystical Tutor, but I didn't play it because it's a 2 mana spell that doesn't effect the board, and it doesn't even draw as many cards as Brainstorm.

Brainstorm doesnt draw. How in the world can you ever compare Brainstorm to Fact or Fiction? Comparing Predict to Brainstorm is the same argument.

4) Disruption

-Stifle: This being a tempo deck, I decided to start testing with 3 of these. Then I realized that this was the single best card I could draw against Flash, the single best way to tempo out Goblins, and was useful in some capacity against every other deck, I went up to 4. With or without Flash in the format I wouldn't play less than 4.

At the time, yes. Now, it sucks again. It sucks against Fish, it sucks against the mirror, it sucks against Faerie Stompy, it sucks against Red Death, it sucks against RGSA, it sucks against everything that isnt Combo or Goblins.

-Spell Snare: This card is awesome, but I ultimately couldn't fit it maindeck. It was really good for me the whole tournament, though.

It's pretty good at the time, I admit.

-Daze: This card is pretty good. It's easy to play around, but gets harder to play around when I have 2-3 gigantic monsters in play. I played 3.

You should've played 4. Bardo also utilizes the 4 Dazes as well, since he runs Mental Note.

-Pithing Needle: Decent, but not great, against most decks. Strong against Crucible decks and slow cards like Pernicious Deed. Proactive disruption against Kiki-Jiki Flash decks. I was happy with having one maindeck, I believe I won 3 game 1s where I played the Needle and stopped something important. 2 was a good number to have postboard, only once did I ever want to have more.

At the time, I probably wouldnt run it.

-Counterspell:
Every turn I used all of my mana, at most I'd leave 1 up to Stifle something or Brainstorm.

You were playing this deck aggressively.

If I ever had more than 3 lands in play, it meant that Serum Visions drew me a land (I hate when that happens, so annoying that my card selection spell draws a blind card off the top...) or I Brainstormed into lands when I was already holding lands.

Portent wouldnt have drawn you a land off the top. You could've Mental Note'd that crap away.

Basically, I never wanted more than 3 lands in play, and never would want to leave up 2 mana when I pass. Also, this card is slow. I want to win fast.

Again, you were aggressive. I know you hated to play land.

5) Other cards:

-Pyroclasm: So insane. Casting this with a Mongoose in play is the best. This card was what made me 3-0 against Goblins in the swiss. Also got me through Slivers in round 10 and Fish in round 7. Also worked against a Zoo deck in round 13. So good.

Reasons to run Red.

6) Thoughts about the deck.

The reason I went with this rather than Fish or white threshold was that it played a much more aggressive game than either of those decks. Quirion Dryad led me to this, as it was always enormous in testing and killed very quickly. After a turn 4 kill against goblins, I knew this deck was better than the white one. It was simple, the closer they are to dead, the harder the tempo cards hit them. The lower their life total, and the bigger my guys are, the harder it is for them to get back into games they are behind in.

This may be a good take, but all the good Goblin players there (except Owen and Jeff) played something else there. You were most likely up against awful Goblin players.

The next part is also something that seems simple to me, Lightning Bolt. I hate how ugw/fish's removal spell is Swords to Plowshares. I can't stand giving my opponent life when I'm trying to kill them with the combat step.

This is reasonable.

Plow your Warchief, attack for 2, play 2/1 or 2/2, it's so weak. Lightning Bolt is killing the same stuff the STPs are killing, so honestly, what's the difference?

I dont see it killing Enforcers and Tarmogoyfs.

Sure, Lightning Bolt can't take down bigger things, but Threshold doesn't win the long game against anything, Sits cards are too weak.

No, the way you play the deck doesnt have the long game. The way Bardo plays the deck doesnt have the long game.

Also, Lightning Bolt was pretty good against flash decks because Kiki-Jiki's ability is red, so if Bodyguard wants to stop a Bolt, it's also going to stop Kiki's ability.

This is a good argument of why Lightning Bolt is better at the time.

So those are my thoughts on things about this deck related to the grand prix. Maybe this whole post was a waste of time, since it seems like this thread it talking about post-future sight, post-b/r announcement, but I decided to try to clear some stuff up from the last few posts here.

That was arrogant. I suppose Legacy doesnt have a future.... *sigh

[Citrus-God]

Scrying to "remain in control" is silly, this deck is a beatdown deck, we don't take control, we win before they can take control. Threshold's cards are very weak, I was always the beatdown role and my plan was always to win before my opponents starting doing powerful things.

Running cantrips allows it to switch roles around when needed be. I know Meandeck Gifts utilizes tutors, and that deck, like this deck, swicthes roles around when needed.

Overall, threshold's cards are very weak. All of the good cards we have are also in our opponent's decks (Force of Will, Brainstorm.)

Depends on the cards you run. The reaosn why I think you're saying this because you're running cards with short term use, like Dryad and Mental Note.

When I played the deck, the longer any game went, the better my opponent's chances of winning were. This was especially true against Goblins and Crucible decks. Threshold has no late game, it has to win before the opponent gets to their late game (or in some cases, their midgame.)

umm.... The NoVA crew may disagree with this. Against Goblins, it may be true, but anything else, it's build dependent.

Josh's initial post was rude, but was a rude response necessary? Telling him to "/quit_magic" is ridiculous and mean. Is it logical to ban someone for making a rude first post, then reply to him in an equally rude manner, when he can't reply to defend himself? And most of the stuff he said was right, he just said it in an exceptionally asshole-ish way. While I don't support telling people that their "contributions are meaningless and your words worthless," I do agree with a lot of what he said. Anyways, we can probably resolve this without any additional rudeness.

If you can, get him to respond with your account. But look at it like this, you come out with a negative message, your response will be a negative response.

[Liek]

Hm. A lot to reply to.

"Quote:
-Removes two 1 toughness creatures (Fish: Mother, Confidant. BW: Nantuko Shade, Confidant. Goblins: Lots of them. Red Deck: everything.)"

Magam Jet does this, and still let's you see a card.

Magma Jet cannot kill two creatures.

"Quote:
-Sends one damage to a guy, one to the opponent. Every point makes them closer to dead."

Shouldnt matter when you have guys with the average stats of 3/3-X/X.

It does matter. Every point matters.

"Quote:
-Serendib Efreet: It's blue, but ultimately got cut because it always got STP'd at a horrible tempo loss (I'm the tempo deck!)"

Counterspell would've protected the poor thing....

Not when I tapped out to play it.

"Quote:
-Fledging Dragon: Never tested it, never even considered it. If a Wasteland takes down a red land it's extremely difficult to cast, let alone activate. Also very bad against STP."

Big fliers only work when the deck has Counterspells and tons of control.

So the plan is to get to 6 mana, play this with a Counterspell up? That's absurd.

"The only time you should ever like that card is if you accept the philosophy of the deck. I doubt you will do well with any Vintage deck, Stax, Red Death, and Faerie Stompy if you do not accept the philosophy of the deck. If you do not like the philosophy, just cut the Visions and claim a new deck is being made with Mental Note. I dont think you can call this ThreshGro if you cut the Visions."

I don't even know how to reply to this. I'll just say something arrogant, there's a check coming in the mail that says that I understood how to play my deck. There's also a powered vintage deck in my possession that indicates my knowledge of "philosophies" in that format. I honestly can't think of a response here that won't sound arrogant.

"Brainstorm doesnt draw. How in the world can you ever compare Brainstorm to Fact or Fiction? Comparing Predict to Brainstorm is the same argument."

Actually, Brainstorm DOES draw cards. Draw three cards, put two blanks on top of the deck, then shuffle them away. In reality, I just drew three cards. Considering Brainstorm a cantrip is far more silly than considering it a draw spell.

"Quote:
4) Disruption

-Stifle: This being a tempo deck, I decided to start testing with 3 of these. Then I realized that this was the single best card I could draw against Flash, the single best way to tempo out Goblins, and was useful in some capacity against every other deck, I went up to 4. With or without Flash in the format I wouldn't play less than 4."

At the time, yes. Now, it sucks again. It sucks against Fish, it sucks against the mirror, it sucks against Faerie Stompy, it sucks against Red Death, it sucks against RGSA, it sucks against everything that isnt Combo or Goblins.

Fish and the mirror contain Fetchlands, but I was still boarding Stifles out against those decks. I don't know what Red Death is, but if is has Fetchlands and Wastelands, I'm willing to wager that Stifle is good against them. And Mogg Fanatic, they probably play that. Maybe even Grim Lavamancer, that can be Stifled. I have no idea, though. RGSA probably has Fetchlands. And Stifling a Survival activation is card and tempo parity. It's not the greatest, but it doesn't seem like the worst.

"Quote:
6) Thoughts about the deck.

The reason I went with this rather than Fish or white threshold was that it played a much more aggressive game than either of those decks. Quirion Dryad led me to this, as it was always enormous in testing and killed very quickly. After a turn 4 kill against goblins, I knew this deck was better than the white one. It was simple, the closer they are to dead, the harder the tempo cards hit them. The lower their life total, and the bigger my guys are, the harder it is for them to get back into games they are behind in."

This may be a good take, but all the good Goblin players there (except Owen and Jeff) played something else there. You were most likely up against awful Goblin players.

This is probably the most outrageous thing I've read in awhile. Copy/Paste:

from the dci page...
07-05-1207862, Grand Prix Columbus 2007: 2007-05-19 - 2007-05-20 6

...
8 Mike P. Hron Win 1809
...
14 Owen Turtenwald Win 1880

Mike Hron won a Pro Tour. Owen T. finished 2nd in this tournament.

I really dislike the quote dissection of forum posts, but I suppose there's no other way to have this conversation.

[Volt]

Too much penis waving on the Legacy message boards lately.

I think Fire/Ice and Magma Jet are pretty much a wash. The former favors a slightly more aggressive approach, the latter a slightly more controlling approach. Fwiw, I think Magma Jet is better for the aggro-control mirror match. In any case, whichever one you favor, I think you will agree that the other one isn't so vastly inferior that the proponents of that card are automatically knuckle-dragging morons.

Same thing for Serum Visions vs. Portent. The former is more aggressive, the latter more controlling. I used to prefer SV, but I've grown to like Portent a bit more. Whatever.

[B4L4]

Hi there, i am new to the source, here is my first post (sry if i made mistake, i do not study english anymore..)

I tend to agree with Liek, every things he saids sounds to me like the truth, i mean, it really what i feel when i am playing UGr ********

For example:
a build with Predict, F.Dragon, 4xCS, ect.. , compared
to a build with Dryad, mental note, 1-2 CS

Here, i think its really a playskill difference, playing Predict his quite bad in my mind, since its just a way to "dream" about a mid/late game plan
This deck as no late-game, don't try to give it one, this is not the "good philosophy", for example against goblin, your best chance to win the game is not to sit and try to control board (maybe u can try it post board if u have pyroclasm), but the way to go is to drop threats and take the aggro role, and force them to chumpblock, while we are cutting them from CA (stifle, ect..)
And it make daze(not speaking about goblin MU specifficialy here) a lot better, 4xDaze is great with at least 7-8 burn spell, dryad, goyf, note

Then, id'like to give u my opinion on 2 discussed cards:
Fire-ice is really great here, pitching to FoW is a real relevant argument
Magma jet is decent, but i don't play it, cause i dislike to cantrip into cantrip (okay, fire-ice don't do better here), but what i mean is it; i dislike to play this card just because it srys, as i dislike to play an high amount of cantrip (higher than 13-14 is bad in my mind), cantriping into cantrip is just bad if u want to play the aggro role, u need threats

i'd rather have an higher amount of relevant card, on a lower of cantrip
I have always consider UGr as a deck with 3 "class" of cards (Creature, CS, and burns) + 1 "class" = cantrip, that allow u to assemblate at least 1 cards of each "class" in the first 2-3 turns, then allow u to focus on the "class" u need to topdeck

When u compare dryad with dragonaut, with the argument that dryad is a bad topdeck, i feel it's not a good argument
Cause, okay, if u topdeck dryad with no card in hand, dryad sucks hard, but if u topdeck dragonaut here, this sucks too...
Both need u to have about 2 cheap playable cards in hand, but one cards cost 2, the other 3
3 is already quit high in UGr, for example, my build run 17 lands, and i have dropped loaming shaman from my board, cause everytime i need to cast it, i just feel it was out of curve (don't consider the utiliy/power of shaman here, just consider the mana cost for my example)

[frogboy]

Yeah, um, I'm gonna out Liek as Paul Nicolo (T8 at Columbus) before backhanded insinuations about his playskill get out of hand, as amusing as they may be.

Saying that Jet is better than Fire because it can kill a Factory in response to a pump spell is a little disingenious, by the way.

[MattH]

Saying that Jet is better than Fire because it can kill a Factory in response to a pump spell is a little disingenious, by the way.

Well they both can do that, but Jet is better when you are doing it. That and situations like that are why I prefer Jet over F/I personally - when I need to kill something AND dig but don't have the mana to do both, Jet pulls through.

[Citrus-God]

Magma Jet cannot kill two creatures.

Killing a Matron and a Goblin token is more important than killing Piledriver against Goblins? Honestly, I only like Fire // Ice in the Survival days when killing a Birds and a Mana Elf was stunting the opponent's development.

It does matter. Every point matters.

When you're trying to win, yes, every point matters.

So the plan is to get to 6 mana, play this with a Counterspell up? That's absurd.

Clearly you havent heard of FoW and Daze?

I don't even know how to reply to this. I'll just say something arrogant, there's a check coming in the mail that says that I understood how to play my deck.

Yes, but still; you are still being ignorant about the fact Portent and Magma Jet actually do serve a key role in some ways this deck is built. You have also been ignorant about the way this deck is being played and built. I'm not telling you to be open minded, but if you're going to put something down, better think up a good reason before people like me kick the front door open.

There's also a powered vintage deck in my possession that indicates my knowledge of "philosophies" in that format. I honestly can't think of a response here that won't sound arrogant.

Then just say it.

You were saying the Control side of Threshold was bad, and that card quality was bad. I had no idea how you could come up with these conclusions so impulsively without thinking why it was good in the first place. So far, you've only concluded your own results, and not the results of others. I admit, Predict wasnt so hot in that metagame at the time, but you still shouldnt go as far as calling it horrible in the first place. There's a reason why it's good when it had it's successes.

You dont have to accept the Control philosophy of the deck, but you shouldnt insult it, or call it bad. I know the Hatfields were ignorant and skepticle about the Mental Note builds, but I dont think they went that far to call it shitty and awful when others were raving around it.

Actually, Brainstorm DOES draw cards. Draw three cards, put two blanks on top of the deck, then shuffle them away. In reality, I just drew three cards. Considering Brainstorm a cantrip is far more silly than considering it a draw spell.

Actually, it's still a cantrip. It doesnt give you card advantage, it gives you card quality. I dont see Brainstorm helping you fight attrition wars, where card advantage matters most.

Fish and the mirror contain Fetchlands, but I was still boarding Stifles out against those decks.

Exactly how the card should be played against those decks.

RGSA probably has Fetchlands. And Stifling a Survival activation is card and tempo parity. It's not the greatest, but it doesn't seem like the worst.

Stifling a Survival activation? No point, they already have card quality and card advantage over you.

This is probably the most outrageous thing I've read in awhile. Copy/Paste:

from the dci page...
07-05-1207862, Grand Prix Columbus 2007: 2007-05-19 - 2007-05-20 6

...
8 Mike P. Hron Win 1809
...
14 Owen Turtenwald Win 1880

Mike Hron won a Pro Tour. Owen T. finished 2nd in this tournament.

I really dislike the quote dissection of forum posts, but I suppose there's no other way to have this conversation.

Fine, I take that back.

I tend to agree with Liek, every things he saids sounds to me like the truth, i mean, it really what i feel when i am playing UGr ********

You europeans and your Mental Note Red Thresh.

Here, i think its really a playskill difference, playing Predict his quite bad in my mind, since its just a way to "dream" about a mid/late game plan

Nothing wrong with that was long as it's not the general concept where winning now is the only optimal option.

This deck as no late-game, don't try to give it one, this is not the "good philosophy", for example against goblin, your best chance to win the game is not to sit and try to control board (maybe u can try it post board if u have pyroclasm), but the way to go is to drop threats and take the aggro role, and force them to chumpblock, while we are cutting them from CA (stifle, ect..)

Dont think you can stabilize. Even when you're cutting them from CA, they can chumb block forever. Of course, you run out of card advntage and start topdecking chaff and a Ringleader resolves chaining into 2 more broken guys. But thats one argument that the Predict player would make agianst the Mental Note player.

And it make daze(not speaking about goblin MU specifficialy here) a lot better, 4xDaze is great with at least 7-8 burn spell, dryad, goyf, note

I will agree with this statement.

Magma jet is decent, but i don't play it, cause i dislike to cantrip into cantrip (okay, fire-ice don't do better here), but what i mean is it; i dislike to play this card just because it srys, as i dislike to play an high amount of cantrip (higher than 13-14 is bad in my mind), cantriping into cantrip is just bad if u want to play the aggro role, u need threats

Guess what? Magma Jer serves as both. It adds to your clock, and improves your card quality at the same time.

i'd rather have an higher amount of relevant card, on a lower of cantrip
I have always consider UGr as a deck with 3 "class" of cards (Creature, CS, and burns) + 1 "class" = cantrip, that allow u to assemblate at least 1 cards of each "class" in the first 2-3 turns, then allow u to focus on the "class" u need to topdeck

Chances are when you have something like Needle as utility, you wont be drawing into it unless you have cantrips.

[mikekelley]

Just a bad topdeck as a con.

I like Dryad, especially in the red version because of it's strength in the mirror, but it's an awful topdeck later on.

Terrible topdeck, terrible topdeck. Which is exactly why it was ridden to a GP top 8. I mean, who would want that in their deck anyway? Clearly this guy was just lucky and never drew it once.

Fledling Dragon is a shitty topdeck too if you draw it with A. no thresh or B. no double R.

[Goblin Snowman]

Terrible topdeck, terrible topdeck. Which is exactly why it was ridden to a GP top 8. I mean, who would want that in their deck anyway? Clearly this guy was just lucky and never drew it once.

Fledling Dragon is a shitty topdeck too if you draw it with A. no thresh or B. no double R.

I've been tossing around tons of different creatures for Red Thres, everything from Sceptor to Flame-Tounge to Burning Tree Shaman. Personally, I like them all in certain builds.
It comes down to how you want to play the deck. If you're going with a very agressive route, you should run Mental Note over Predict and whatever Burn spell you feel most comfertable with. I personally prefer Magma Jet and Predict, but it's your call. If you want a list that plays the control route, try out Isochron Sceptor, as if you can protect it, it's a win condition and infi card advantage by itself. If you want something that beats up Goblins early, try out Burning Tree. The "slight" differences between builds of Red Thres dramaticly change how the deck runs.

[b4r0n]

Maybe Tarmogoyf would be better than Dryad? While it doesn't have the evasion of Dragon, and won't grow as enormous as Dryad can, it's easier to cast than Dragon and is a better topdeck than Dryad. I definitely think it's a better option than Burning Tree Shaman.

I think that the Fire/Ice vs Magma Jet debate boils down to the way you play the deck. If you're running Predicts, then you're likely playing a more controlling build and clearly you'd prefer the manipulation of Magma Jet. If you're running Mental Note, then you're likely playing a more aggressive build and probably prefer the efficiency of Fire/Ice. Neither is objectively stronger; they're just different, perhaps better suited for one style of play than another. It seems that the true argument is about the nature of the deck more than the choice between these two cards.

[mikekelley]

I personally run Fire/Ice, Magma Jet and Predict in my build. I have them in as a 3/4/4 configuration, and it works pretty efficiently when i need it to.

Keep in mind that Tarmogoyf can be just as lousy as Dryad. Common sideboard hate for thresh will kill it as well, such as having an opponent Tormod's Crypt your 'yard, or having a Leyline in play. I personally think it is a meta call, or like baron said, comes down to your play style.

[B4L4]

Dont think you can stabilize. Even when you're cutting them from CA, they can chumb block forever. Of course, you run out of card advntage and start topdecking chaff and a Ringleader resolves chaining into 2 more broken guys. But thats one argument that the Predict player would make agianst the Mental Note player.

Hum, so what is your plan to win goblin MU .?
If u don't plan to dominate the board early game, i do not see how u can be in a favorable board position turn 6-7 against gobbos..

Keep in mind that Tarmogoyf can be just as lousy as Dryad

Waoh waoh waoh... have u ever test tarmo in this deck?
Personally, since my first try with it, i consider him as my best creature....
But if u have tested it, i really want to heard what was wrong with this card to make u say that it can be a lousy topdeck...

(cause, if graves have been hated, it can"t have an inferior P/T than mangouse or bear, he would be at least 1/2)